and indeed, as harris et alia have made clear in recent months, the only reason catholicism and other xian sects are less in the limelight over human rights abuses and life-hating doctrines is that they have sold out to their "foundation texts" and "updated" their "interpretation" of same, to make it less barbaric, less embarrassingly out of step with reality...
so, no wonder that catholics "seem" more moderate; they are, to the exact extent to which they distance themselves from their "iron-age magic books" to borrow and paraphrase harris and others...

(btw, greg, i wonder if your average muslim would appreciate their magic book being referred to in such anachronistic terms as a "foundation text"; the quran is, after all, for most muslims, inerrant -every sacred syllable- and an eternally exact report of what allah said to the prophet thru the angel)

and moreover, greg old son, its' a bit rich having a snide shot at a woman who is living under repeated death threats as one who is "surrounding herself with beefy bodyguards just to emphasise the point that she really is a brave soul who is under threat of execution at any moment"

"just" to emphasise this...
as if being targetted by jihadists is not a bit of a problem?
targetted by those who cling to a medieveal "metaphysics of martyrdom" that convince them they are going straight to paradise on ridding the world of an enemy of islam, an apostate, who is incidentally, in this view of theirs, sent straight to the eternal flames of hell...

wouldn't you be hiring a bit of meat to put around you if it meant you could continue to live a semblance of a normal life?

rise up, sleeper, and behold the barbarians at the gate...

I actually wasn't opposed to the SWF inviting Hirsi Ali as a guest. After all, she is an author of a best-selling autobiography.

At the same time, she is a pathological liar who admitted entering the Netherlands using fraudulent claims. She actually used the word "fraudulent" to describe her refugee application when she spoke to Dutch journalist Ian Buruma.

It is a very sad day for Islam-haters on these forums when they must look to migration frauds to support their paranoid fantasies. I have no problems with people despising a religion. But seriously, can't you find a less dishonest pinup for your cause?

Only a man could write such provocative trash ! If he had had his genitalia chopped off, a la women in Islamic countries, maybe he would feel just a tad different. Or perhaps he could try wearing the burka for a day or two, and not driving or going out without being accompanied by his spouse. Probably he wouldn't even be able to write his feeble missives, as women are so often not sent to school. Let him stay home and cook and mind the kiddies, and confiscate his PC. Any disobedience and he'll get a beating.

Before people such as Greg Barns go into spasms about dissidents such as
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, he should become moderately informed about Islamic penal codes as enforced in Iran and Arab countries. These codes represent the social and legal aspects of Islam; they are not the fulminations of individual fundamentalists. Penal codes are a method of gauging the general, accepted temper of the people. Barns mentions Catholicism and homosexuality and their ban on female priests. As far as I know, there are no female imans in Islam, in fact females get pretty poor recognition as far as human rights is concerned, as do children; and as for converts and those who speak out against Islam ...

The Iranian Islamic Penal Code

Article 83, para 2
Women and girls can be stoned to death; this article also sets out size of the stones to be used - neither too small not to hurt, nor to large as to kill outright.

Article 49
A child becomes criminally liable at 9 years old for girls and 15 years old for boys, (which includes the death sentence), Whenever a boy or a girl who has not reached the age of liability commits a crime, the court is entitled to sentence him/her to corporal punishment ( a public flogging).

Article 110
Homosexuals are to be executed.

Article 513
Apostates from Islam are to be executed.

Article 13 of the Iranian Islamic Constitution
Only followers of three other religions are recognized as minorities (who do not have equal rights with the Muslims believing in twelve imams). The rest are infidels and deprived from all civil rights and killing them is indisputable.

Also see: http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/ir_un2005a.pdf

Barns cites an extremist Israeli, Mike Guzofsky, in support of his argument. However, Israel is a democratic country with freedom of speech. Perhaps Barns should find out how many Jews are more secular, than profoundly religious, let alone extremists. Of Israel’s population of 7 million, 76.1% are Jewish, 16.2% Islamic Arabs, 2.1% Christian, and 1.6% Druze, the remaining 3.9% others. Arab Israelis enjoy equal rights with Jews, as do all Israelis, including representation in the Knesset. Druze, an Islamic sect, subject to persecution in Islamic countries, have their HQ in Israel, they also, voluntarily make up a large percentage of the Israel Border Police personnel.

Courageous Islamic intellectuals and dissidents are becoming increasingly vocal about human rights abuses, the need for democracies, and rigorous examination of Islam within their countries. They call for an approved, theologically rigorous interpetation of Islam challenging the accepted norm. Importantly they want the West to listen to them and support their aims. However, Barns would like to see these same people gagged.

Ironically, it is the smug, politically correct Barns’ of the West who are the obstacles
to change. They ignore the human rights abuses within Islam, or make excuses for the indefensible - as one Muslim remarked, the West’s obsession with political correctness, trivialises his people, in the same way the West in a bygone era, saw them as “the white man’s burden.”

Barns would do well to read the article by Tawfik Hamid, just one of many Islamic intellectuals and dissidents:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890

Islamic intellectuals and dissidents are not asking for military intervention, nor change imposed from outside, only that the West listen to them and support them. They know that real change can only come from within.

Irfy..I have to give you a score card for that last post.

1/ "Islam-haters" Tick.. at LAST you have departed from "Muslim" haters.

2/ "Migration_Fraud". Tick, true.

3/ "Pathalogical liar" ? X for that one.. 'lied on an immigration from out of desperation and fear/terror does not make one a pathological liar.

4/ "Paranoid Fantasies".. X for that one also, which gives you a pass rate of 50%. Living in real fear of being murdered as her associate Van Gogh was... nope..I won't call that either paranoid or fantasy.

Now.. being a lwyer, you will realize this is not really good enough.

BUT.. Greg Barns ? "intolerance" ? (laughs until crashing onto the floor) ....

gets up...

Reads more. "There is no Muslim 5th Column" exactly Greg, just like J.EDGAR HOOVER was right when he said "What organized crime?, there is none"

Greg.. if it were not for the fact that I SAW you on the defense team for the 13 alledged Muslim terrorists, in the courtroom, I might just think you are naive, but given your involvement with alledged terrorists (by virtue of your legal services).. you must admit that to read 'FROM YOU' 'no Muslim 5th column' does raise certain questions about your motives.

I'll leave everyone else to figure that one out and speculate themselves.

"If she were a genuine leader she would seek dialogue and consensus"

Thats right Greg.. (pat pat).. just as Theo Van Gogh would have said to his attacker.. "Now wait a minute.. lets discuss this... " Oh wait.. I think he DID say things like that.. in between begging for his life... and sadly, it did him no good. Within seconds of seeking 'consensus and dialogue' he was laying in a pool of blood, with note pinned to his blood soaked chest by a knife.

Greg.. you just make yourself look like a total idiot, devoid of anything resembling common sense, when you woffle on like this.

Me ? recovering from the impact of "OBSESSION-The rise of radical Islam" viewed last night at a synagogue.