AJLeBreton,

Perhaps if the Abrahamic Religions maintained the natural respect for the Spirit world and hadn't thrown the bathwater out once having bathed the baby, we wouldn't have such a observable disregard for Mother Nature and the Human Condition. These Religions of Love and Peace, that profess such concern for mankind through the love of their God have lead all Humanity to this end. Not just their fellow believers. I do not blame this on anyones God but, on a shared, adopted philosophy and abuse of scientific principle, being that reducing to the essential element, purity, is the highest good. Reality is otherwise. Purity is just as big a threat.
Can man survive on pure oxygen? Was man designed to breathe pure oxygen?
In the battle to win the right to dictate the value of mans soul Religion surrendered the use of balance. Any counterbalancing weight, force, or influence with in religion itself. Having chosen God over man it becomes an easy extension of that thought to abuse man in the name of God. It's for your own good. Your benefit.
And by extension we can pollute, we can kill, we can consume, ravage the land and the seas, loose a species a day, relentlessly drive for that unobtainable purity. And with in that same deck of cards we have chosen by design, discard the ace, the joker of our new deck of cards, the natural spirits, the elemental all good, the spirit of nature.
Lets not go to the extreme of worship. How about due regard?

For a long time, I was in the same boat as West and Ybpgirp - religion is the problem of the masses. I couldn't understand how intelligent people could voluntarily believe such guff, unless indoctrinated by their parents.

After seeing so many religions, all so convinced they are right, I couldn't help but be incredulous - they were all so convinced of their blind faith, the only logical conclusion was that some were wrong, and as they all employed the same reasoning, the logical conclusion was therefore that they were all wrong.

I had formed the opinion that religion as a way of life was really only two things: a buffer against reality (namely death) and secondly, an explanation for things which can't be explained.

Ultimately however, I have come around to another way of thinking. My ponderings led me to believe that it was also plausible that in their similarities it was possible for them all to be correct, provided certain differences weren't emphasised. In seeing the similarities of all world religions that have taken hold, these differences appear quite trivial in the larger scheme.

One by-product of this line of reasoning, was the simple fact that belief in one system can't be a prerequisite for human development - when you think about it, this goes hand in hand with all of the above conclusions, despite the fact that they are diametrically opposed.

So my ultimate conclusion?

It doesn't matter. If there is any code upon which to base a life, it isn't founded on a selective morality; it is founded upon the conscience which the vast majority of us collectively share.

AJLeBreton without persecution of the 'other' there can be no belief in god Because there is no belief in god without persecution. God has proved himself by every believer to be the believers ego. Each god believer worships himself and therefore those who do not acknowledge the believer as holder of god is offensive to the believer. Occult literature such as the Bible or Koran serve to justify and regulate persecution on that basis. The bible from first paragraph to the very last and what I have read of the Koran are persecution start to end. Indeed the concept of Heaven and Hell make the concept of god-god the persecutor. He who does not follow Jesus is not saved thus persecuted and Christ becomes Christ the persecutor. Those are the rules regulating the god believer. Of course its just arbitrary gaming made up by groups forming superstitious cults. Pity god believers dont keep their self worship to themselves. It would be nice if they stopped causing trouble and stopped their persecution of others , their incessant whinging and let the rest of us fix the problems this world faces.

Turnrightthenleft
and then do a back flip.... I wonder how much contact you have with the natural world... you say "It doesn't matter. If there is any code upon which to base a life, it isn't founded on a selective morality; it is founded upon the conscience which the vast majority of us collectively share."
The only thing all living objects share is the desire to procreate and to live at all costs. If that cost is the life of one's neighbour, then so be it. If it is at the cost of every frog and lizard in Australia, then so be it. Conscience is merely the knowledge that you have transgressed one of your society's rules. When societies collapse, as thgey are in the throes of doing due to over population, global warming and the egregious lies of politicians, then social conventions no longer apply - it becomes every 'man' for himself as it is in all of nature when things get tough, and the only thing that would prick anyone's conscience is not doing whatever it takes to save one's own skin.

ybgirp.. VERY astute post mate !

TRTL said:

"founded upon the conscience which the vast majority of us collectively share"

Now..that is probably one of the ideas which deserves serious scrutiny by all of us.. specially the humanists among us.

It is undeniable when looked at objectively, that our collective conscience has been shaped and mouled by our education, media, history and race. I sure hope I don't have to justify this as it is a self evident truth.
One only needs to examine other non western societies to see the differences in said 'Collective Conscience' to know this.

Since the late 50s, many aspects of our 'collective conscience' have changed and I've watched it happen.
It has not happened with me, because I have a rock solid anchor in the Judao Christian traditions of faith. My reference point is the ethics and values of Christ, and the Apostles, as outlined in the New Testament, as based on the Old Tetsament.

But mere adherence to the validity of a set of ethics is not enough. Its the relationship which produces the motivation and desire to fulfill them. "Self" sometimes gets in the way, and we err, but the Good Shepherd reaches out.. and draws us back.
Sounds like a good place to put an 'Amen'.

Christianities so called ethics are based on exclusionism and persecution. Like most if not all cults of superstition Christianity holds bad morals and this is why Christians have been motivated to war , to witch hunt , to steal children , to commit the most horrific crimes against humanity a person can imagine. Of course Christians claim they have good morals, the Nazis claimed the same thing. The truth is ethics have never been important in civilisation until secularists forced it upon the religious world. Christians like other cults have always been and remain anti ethical and a good example of moral corruption in action is Tony Abott, Timothy McVeigh, Benny Hinn, Bob Larson, the popes who's dedication to occult idols such as Jesus has led to their approach toward true care for their fellow man with occult cynicism and antipathy responsible for spreading misery. Christianity is the quintessential opposite to ethics, it is anti-ethics regardless of what Christians claim. It is ironic that Christian claims of god and heaven and hell are untruths , that the only possible reality , that they could be ethical is also just another untrue claim of Christianity.