Donnie,

Knowing whether a god or gods exist is a taller order, than explaining the presence of religions, cults, sects, denominations. If one goes back to the matter of first cause,issues like did god precede the universe, arise? As you say, it is a matter of definition, and, there are plenty of definitions out there.

My posts maintain that history and anthropology can indicate of architecture of religions, cults, sects, denominations. For example, in the 1940s, in New Guinea, "Cargo Cults", arose. That is, the indigineous tribes people, saw planes providing supplies to the Western soldiers, and, convinced themselves the aircraft were sent by the gods to give them gifts: Only, the foreign Westerners were interceding and stealing these gifts from the gods. What is significant: One can construct what happened. It is history.

Similarly, one can re-construct the environment and mythologies of the first century Jesus cults, how there were Judaic and Roman mystery cult borrowings, how Saul (Paul) Hellenised the religion and how latter Roman emperors institutonalised the religion. Moreover, the same process can be applied to other religions. It is history.

Whether god exists or not, is a separate issue to whether aeroplanes are sent by the gods or Jesus is god, in human history. Herein, I would posit, neither aeroplanes nor religious pretenders, are divine, in history.

- What Sells and Philo, wont do is to treat Jesus in the same manner as they would an aeroplane in an alternative cult. Guess, that is their priviledge, and, perhaps, myth, does have valuable organisational input into [a needingly ignorant] civilization.
Whether the messangers of gods are from the McDonald Douglas Corporation or Heaven, it might be we still need these training wheels cum cherished fabrications for a few centuries yet.

Because there are pretend gods [in history], it does not follow there are real gods. If [big if] there are real gods, it is a totally different model [to religion].

"If religion was good then it would be impossible for it to cause harm." -- West

Interesting point.

Allied to this matter is why there is evil? A god would supposedly have a fore-knowledge of its creations' [Satan and errant humans] dispositions.

Free Will? Just a cop-out... Especially, with AI, computer programmes set ranges of activities within nested parameters. What sort of God could not allow free will but without evil [not an oxymoron]... We can jump, but not to the moon; we can readily perceive 3-D space, but, 4-D spacetime is perceptually elusive. Thus, a property can exist, within limits. But why not have free will "within" a non-evil behaviour set? The lack of the same, points the arrow of defective authorship director towards the [supposed]god.

Jesus might have been an okay carpenter [i.e, woodworker, metal-wright or wheeler maker], but, his godhead makes a Z-grade programmer [of nature].

Relatedly, I find the Insect World incredibly cruel. The broader Law of the Jungle, too. -- Very loving, very kind? Ha! [The supposed]God's solution to transfer energy [say protein] in organic interaction is sadistic in the extreme. I do hope that such an insane monster does not exist. Who could trust It?

A loving [supposed] God, as you say, for religion, would find it "impossible" to harm its creation.

Cheers,

O

I would just like to add to Olivers post on the logic of god. How is it a creator of the sun who created the sun within 7 days and vastly more complex than living organisms made such a mess out of humans? How is it a creator who created a universe which is larger than human perception can concieve could only communicate to one or two people at a time within a tiny spatial area? Why would a sun builder make it rain for 40 days to flood a world when every planet hes made makes it obvious he would have gassed the earth and let survivors merely breath the gas , even water for that matter, or exterminate life and start again or wiggle his nose and create a new planet. The bible does not talk about a god that is connected to nature. Why would an intelligent designer capable of designing a star design a small child to linger in pain for months or years to die , why is there not equal death? Why die to go to heaven and hell, death is a messy , naturally dirty solution to transmission to other worlds.

When dealing with the notion of god using science, reality, facts or truth god simply does not make sense. Even when you try and justify god using supernatural discourse God still does not make sense. Sorry believers I find god a really odd thing to believe in. I would even argue that sprites , gnomes and fairies, specialist creator spirits make more sense because those myths at least have one conceptial connection with nature and nature is all we have.

Donnie,
It is impossible for blind people to see reality outside their feeling experiences. West's continual denial of his own life existence is based in his blindness to human reality.

He denies character, attitudes, and wisdom have any reality because he cannot accept they have any reality. He denies his mother is a soul because he never knew her tenderness, love, care, wisdom. In his world all these things are fantacy and imagined - they have no reality. We recognise God is expressed in the purity of these spiritual realities.

The soul of the person is the spiritual aspects of expression evidenced in the body. West believes he was born merely a blob of organic matter and makes no impression on living because he denies he is a soul. Let him remain in his delusion.

A person does not have a soul, A LIVING PERSON IS A SOUL. The soul is not a thing it is the spirit of the person. He cannot comprehend that because he is merely a blob of chemicals without any character, wisdom, or human attitudes. He believes is not a soul! Perhaps he is right about himself after all. He is dead!

By your own logic Philo, a soul is what we make of it and does not exist in an objective reality. Character, attitudes, and wisdom are abstract concepts created by us to describe subjective experiences. They have no reality outside of our own thoughts. Just like God.

Philo are you saying the soul is personality? If so why not say personality? Or are you saying a soul is magic , has magical properties? If so then explain those properties and how you came upon such factual knowledge. Please do not become angry with me , look at it from somebody elses perspective who is not psychic , from the outside of your head it appears if you make such things up. All I am asking here is you explain in facts so that we can not have such a misunderstanding. Obviously if you have proof of souls you have not made the soul up and it is an actual thing. All I know personally from historical sources is origionally the soul was an obituary. You on the other hand have discovered an additional fact, you should share what exactly a soul is and how you can confirm it.