Waterboy,

Welcome to the thread. If you stay around like me for 4-5 threads initiated by Peter Sellick [Sells], you will find that he only enters the debate to label his "opponents". Else, he ingores some pretty heavy physical scientists, historians and anthropologists. It will be interesting to see if he replies to you.

Spain plays a key role in your posit. By the time, the Western Roman Empire fell [476 CE], the West was on the path to feudalism and a dark ages. In fact, both occurred. Much [Educated] Greek knowledge had been lost to the West. On the hand, Byzantine Empire [Muslim] which was not held back by the Christian knowledge retentive state, flourished, having captured Greek know-how and possessing a more positive attitude towards knowledge discovery. So, by comparison the West was backwards.

The Muslims expanded into what is now Spain and the West retook Spain. Although, the Christians destroyed much of the ecclectic culture, destoying universities and buring books; some of the supior knowledge took hold. Centuries latter we had the Enlightenment and the Renaissiance. Then the Great Divergence [c.1760], when people started leveraging technology using theory. Unfortunately, we might still have not left the Age of Ignorance: But least the powers which would deny Humanity knowledge are being challenged. My guess is it could still take 300-400 years, even in the West, or, our successor civilization.

There is an irony though, the Church of England [when it wasn't suppressing the Irish] did support the idea of a general education of the workforce. That knowledge brought about leagacies it did not foresee. Governments, science, and churches can be questioned, and, the plebs can provide equal and better arguments the Church, in matters at the heart of our existence.

Aqvarivs not at all I don’t want a hug from a god or any other fantasy character. If I want a hug I will get a real one in the real world. Let me be clear on the belief of god and the position of ego. The belief in god is a superstitious belief based on the self centred view from the ego. That is a god believer believes in god so therefore the ego will give him/her the feeling god exists that feeling is superstition, the believer looking inwards is ego. The desire to be immortal, to believe one is saved is egotistical it is a self focus, immortality, salvation of course is superstition. To want loved others saved of course is egotistical; the selfish view one cannot bare loss or parting for ones own benefit because damnation and salvation is superstition. To want strangers to believe in god is egotistical because it is a threat of superstitiously constructed outcomes to force others to reinforce ones own belief. All religious or spiritual discourse is to satisfy the ego and egos don’t like to be thought of by others as being wrong. There is the falsehood of community within churches a construct to protect and strengthen the institutional ego. Misogyny found in all formal spiritualism is a product of male ego. Animals and plants mere resources put on the earth for man by god another self centred view of the world and over nature with man sitting on top of earthly existence of the hierarchy in nature – ego.
The character of Jesus Christ in the New Testament and ST Augustine in his Confession of a Sinner to name a few works is all “me, me, me”. No wonder in most religions the world is at the centre of the universe because man is on earth, followers are the chosen people, the saved, their gods requiring never to be questioned. Spirituality aside from being superstitious is narcissist.

Aqvarivs, you are saying something like ....."I WANT to believe. . . So I DO!" . From what I've found among your expressed thoughts here, there is this one and only WILL to believe which you apply to everything including others like Westyboy and myself who in fact apply the exacto opposite. The WILL to believe is simply search an ye shall find which in nearly all situations means you will find nothink, nothing and zilch. i.e. Trying to match any factual finding to a presumption/belief is where you will only find your ego.

So Aqvarivs, why is it that your will to believe is seriously dominant to your will to find out (or find and ye shall seek)? i.e. Is it possible that you haven't learnt how to find anything in your life?

Keiran, the will is everything. Your perceptions are all false. They're deceptions of a reality beyond your pathetic understanding. If you were capable of understanding the world. The Universe. life. As it really is you, you would have much more efficient tools at your biological disposal. That you think your clever at word gaming is all part and parcel of your pathetic incompetent inferior biology. That you can not imagine beyond the weak biological chemical responses of your design is not your fault. That your more or less inept as the next person is a mater of degrees not an inferior or a superior design. That others have the capacity of being able to imagine the existence of a God, that the very same chemical reactions develop and trigger different images for them is not a fault. Different is not a fault. Ridicule of something beyond your capacity is a fault. It's the sign of a weak mind. Biochemistry baby.
Read a little Carlos Castaneda. He writes about increasing awareness. Very different from fixed and entrenched perceptions. Read about near death experiences and out of body experiences. Step out of your mainstream educational dictatorship. Break the bonds of the limited thinking of either, or.
Expand your mind.
Careful though. Once you open that door... all things become possible.
You are then no longer limited to on or off.
Or you can end up like West, barking at the stars in the full light of your own self importance shouting ego. All is ego.

I find it quite humorous that West, and now it seems Kieren, place their beliefs about spirituality and God and criticisms thereof firmly on this concept of a thing called the "ego" which is itself an abstract deriving from the theories, and yes - beliefs!, of Sigmund Freud. Freud's theories, and the practices which arose from them, are highly questionable and their scientific basis is tenuous at best. You don't have to look very far for controversy over Freuds works.
It appears the pot does actually call the kettle black.
Ironic isn't it?

I believe Kevin Rudd is Catholic not at all protesting against the Catholic Faith. Since we have this amazing claim the West is scientifically backward, Where does most modern scientific knowledge currently reside? Almost all Muslim countries (Middle East) stifle the free expression of knowledge. This only allows Eastern countries like China, South Korea (68% Christian), and Japan who all have received most of their advanced education from the majority Christian West.

However clinical science has virtually nil to do with spirituality. Spirituality has everything to do with character and social relationships.