aqvarivs appears to be copping it from a few sides here but i have found their posts to be quite insightful and reasonable.

West, you have come down heavily on religion and use history as your proof that it's all bad, but do you apply the same magnifying glass to your own beliefs? It appears your beliefs are rooted in the ideas and theories of the likes of Nietsche, Marx, Freud: "God is dead, said Fred", "Religion is the opiate yada yada", "sex, sex, sex, sex... um sex?". Our recent history of fascism, communism should serve as good indicators of the fruits of these 'posits'.

Oliver, you appear to advocate an empirical approach to knowledge which is fine, but are you assuming it will lead to total materialism? Or have i inferred wrongly from your posts?

Hawaiilawyer I am sure the Taliban agree with you. Donnie the Vatican the spiritual arm of Fascism aside , you only need to go to the transcripts of Family First or read Hawaiilawyer's post above yours to see what I am on about. See Tony Abbotts, Hillsong or Paradise church of Christ websites. Seek out what the legal status of converts to atheism or Christianity are in Morocco. Find out what happens to critics of Islam in Egypt. Try the discovery Institute website and see the Christian agenda for American and eventually all children. Check out the Kids On Fire School of Ministry website or any Fire Ministry websites. Read the ' Misreported, misconstrued, mistranslated, misunderstood' thread in this Forum and see how as far as Christians condemn Muslims for doing what Christians do.

Hawaii,
The word "angel" means messengers of God - the messenger is the medium and it can be an innamate object or animal but mostly other persons that strikes in our mind a message. The term "demon" is a Greek word for their gods, being monotheist does not allow other gods. Early Christians were put to death because they refused to believe that the Roman gods existed. Many in the Church today do not understand the conflict the early christians had with combatting these views. They think because the Bible mentions such; therefore they must be real. Demons are the ideas and teachings of men who believe non material beings control acts and behaviour. Christians are free of such ideas and fears. All power belongs to only ONE. That ONE is intrinsically involved in nature of the Universe - It is all God's Creation. Demons are the spirits of men in defiance to the moral and pure God.

West, yes i do see what you are on about. You are asserting an evil nature in theism and specifically Christianity by the intentions, actions and consequenses of its adherants through the ages. Perhaps that is a sound argument. I myself would also look at the positive and good results as well as the negative for a balanced view before i made judgement, not just stack the scales on one side.
I also point out that you yourself are on shaky ground as the beliefs that you seem to hold, implied in your posts, are echos of theories and ideas which have also inspired fascism, murder and immorality. So the same hammer with which you strike at Christianity and other theistic positions actually shatters your own platform when turned around.

I personally am not a defender of Christianity per se, so am not really perturbed by your posts. I am however a defender of free and uninhibited expression of religion. In part i agree with your objection to one religion trying to stamp on others. However i take issue with the conclusion that because some or the main religions have been used to control and oppress man, then all religion must be bad or false and the whole idea should be abolished or we will eventually evolve beyond such "primitive" notions. It is flawed logic if nothing else. Religion is a search for truth. Science grows from similar seeds. The search should not be hindered, no matter what avenue it takes.

Oliver,
I understand your wish to extend human progress but, is choosing an either or proposition progressive? In order for you to be more right, someone has to be more wrong. You have positioned yourself as the more right. A superior position. Thus contributing to the social discord by promoting an us vs. them environment. Good vs. evil. The very same dichotomy of opposing extremes found inherent in mans nature which religion seeks to moderate by rewarding good and punishing evil under the watchful eye of a benevolent but strict spiritual authority.
Indeed gravity, nuclear bonds and sub-atomic particles exibit formidable forces. So to does inertia. I would familiarize my self with it if I was to dedicate a significant portion of my life's energy to defeating any idea of religion or the existence of God. Especially the unified inertia of two opposing forces engaged in a push pull relationship. Neither generates sufficient forward momentum to break the stalemate. He said, she said arguments are circular not linear.
The anti-religionists suggest that in the absents of religion mans history would be nothing but a history of modernity and enlightenment. Blaming mans historical and present character, or lack there of, on religion or a belief in a God.
Such thinking makes the imprisonment of criminals responsible for crime, it becomes the fact of the institution, prison itself that promotes criminality. If man had never incarcerated his fellow citizen for crimes against society no crime would exist. (insert icon of man shaking head)
There is justification for arguing religion has failed mankind but, religion is not responsible for mans nature. Man thought into existence the institution of religion. The institutions of religion did not think into existence man nor define the extremes of his character. It is mans inherent nature that lead to the building of prisons, the building of the Taj Mahal, and the building of the space station. Should we dispose of it all, end human development because we have a necessity for prisons.

Philo,

"Demon" in Ancient Greek means, "evil spirit" [of whch one can be possessed], not a Greek god. My guess is you taken your claim from some Church tract? Remember:

Please note, The Churches typically use Koine Greek often translated from the Vulgar latin. You need to use more ancient Attic Greek sources to capture the real meaning. What you are doing is something like a 25th century scholar reading Chaucer from a 21st century high school primer. {The Churches should know better. Scholastic fraud?]

Moreover, you overstate that the case against the Romans:

Christians refused to worship THEIR god in the temple of Apollo.

- (a) This failure to worship at the appropriate palce was seen as atheisism and the Romans were superstitious about this, and,

- (b) their exclusivity was against Roman inclusive pantheism.

Moreover, there were issues around not praying for the safety of the Emperor.

Further, Catechemens before Baptism were known for "last fling" (Mack) loutish behaviour.

Lastly, ingesting the Eucharist (body & blood) was viewed by the Romans as sickly, symbolic cannibalism.

I would never, never agree with what the Romans did, but, let's not white wash the historical situation. [Also, Carigula and Nero were quite mad.]

Donnie,

Will reply soon