I note meliarator has assumed the high moral ground as the wog boy made good - he also offers s the sage advice the 2nd generation Muslim boys dont need a wage as they income is derived from narcotics - he also delivers the boring mantra - "let them assimilate".

The history of Islamic migration - if we exclde the camel herders from Afghanistan is quite short - like other commuities - Italians, Greeks, Vietnames each of whom represented the scourge of immigration at one time or another - have become integraterd elements of the community at the same time as mantaining their own distinctive identity - given half a chance so will the balance of the Islamic community - however no other groyp has faced the elvel of sustained and orchestrated vilification as have muslims - little wonder the more feral amongst them remain that way - and the vilification is countenanced by weak leadership internally and from the federal government who have abrogatetd their responsibilty here.

And as for the narcotics crap - it is a law and order issue not a race or religious one - if you can believe the papers the italian community in melbourne still seems to be fairly well connected in the under world - no one seems to make a big deal of that any more - coz its a law and order matter.

sneekeepete - "the wog boy made good?" When was I bad? Who is doing the assuming here exactly?

Sadly, it is people such as yourself who take the words of others out of context just in order to forumulate a specific argument which make productive dialogue between those of differing views tiresome.

This is highlighted when you mention "he also offers s the sage advice the 2nd generation Muslim boys dont need a wage as they income is derived from narcotics" - although clearly I pointed out in my post that in the south-west of Sydney (which was addressed in the article as requiring attention for high unemployment) there is a high concentration of spoilt Muslim youngsters with poor/no work ethics and parents/wider community who consider every action carried out by them as smelling of roses. Now if aforementioned youngsters see their older brothers and cousins driving around in their WRXs and wearing their bling, which avenue do you think sounds most appealing to them? How easily now do you think such "motivated" individuals could have their impressionable minds manipulated by religious extremists?

Sometimes we don't have to rely on a sensationalising media to see what is going on? Why ignore our very own eyes when we are experiencing it in our very backyard?

The "sustained and orchestrated vilification" you mention is perhaps correct. It is unfortunate that the actual problems never seem to be addressed and instead other ludicrous and damaging issues are highlighted. However to use that "ground" as an excuse is even more petty than the silly assumption of what my earlier post was deemed to be.

Let me also refresh our minds that we are dealing with generalisations here. I am delighted to have a number of muslim friends. Except out of this post I do not need to refer to them as my muslim friends because they are merely my fellow Australians who happen to be muslim.
....

(cont) They are fun, interesting, tolerant - yet they are also reasonably educated with supportive families who embrace this nation with the appreciation for the way it has embraced them, regardless of the occasional/frequent narrow-mindedness of the ignorant.

**Steps onto soapbox** Real Australians don't need to make excuses for their inaction - they forge a life for themselves in the face of adversity. So clearly with this issue everyone needs to come to the party. Yet if the muslim community as a generalisation are truly moderates, it is surely up to them to appoint moderate spokespeople to guide them through a productive process which Saeed Saeed claims he desires.

Oh btw sneekeepete - what non-boring "mantra" was your post conveying?

Woops. I must be at the wrong place. I am looking for The Forum. But this looks more like the Stormfront site. Or Tim Blair's blog. I'd better press the refresh button.

Mylakhrion

I am pro-immigration. I want to make that clear. This is not an anti-immigration rant.

Australia is a desirable destination for migrants. More people want to come here than we are prepared to take. We are in a position to be selective.

Let's be clear. We have barred people from entering Australia on the basis of their beliefs. David Irving, the Holocaust denier, was denied a visitor's visa and would not have been permitted to immigrate here.

I doubt that members of the White supremacist "Christian Identity" sect would be granted permanent residence visas. And if some were there would be a hullabaloo about it from the political Left.

Islam is a belief system. There is no such thing as a "race" or "ethnicity" of Muslims. It is legitimate to ask the following question:

Is it in the interests of Australia to bar people who adhere to at least some variations of the Islamic belief system from migrating here?

In order to answer that question we need to take a hard look at what is actually being taught as Islam in the schools and Madrassahs of the candidate immigrant's country of origin. If, as I suspect, we discover that what is being taught as Islam in, say, Pakistani Madrassahs is something barely distinguishable from National Socialism we have a problem. We would not normally allow professed Nazis into Australia.

I am not saying there is an easy answer to this; but I am saying we need to ask ourselves whether we are needlessly importing problems.

We also need to be careful of our terminology. Fredrick Toben of the Adelaide institute is a pariah but a Muslim kid who says the same thing is an "alienated youth" and we need to "reach out" to him?

Where does that process stop? And why do Muslims specifically appear to be so prone to "alienation?" Is it really all due to Aussie racism? Or is Aussie racism the default answer when we don't know? Could Muslim racism be at least part of the answer?

How much slack do we cut antisemitic Muslims?

Stephany

Likewise, I would like to make two points clear. I am not a mindless optimist (though my wife might disagree). Selection and settlement of immigrants is a complex balancing act. And you are right, we are perfectly within our rights to bar undesirable persons from immigrating to Australia.

Further, I also agree that Muslim immigrants provide a greater challenge than most other groups for a variety of reasons. However, I still maintain that time will solve most of the problems.

That being said, I also think that the current hysteria surrounding Muslims is counterproductive.

No rational person can support a leader like Hilali. Unfortunately, instead of criticizing the man, we criticize the group. In doing this we force them to close ranks because they have no way out: either Hilali is right and Aussies are all racist, or they are all wrong for being Muslim. And who is going to volunteer to be wrong! We don’t.

The lesson here is don’t make Islam the enemy. Make the idiots professing insanities the enemy. The crux of Saeed’s piece was that we all need to meet somewhere in the middle. If we give the Muslim community some respect, we have a right to expect it in return. If we acknowledge their right to be Muslim then they need to honour the obligation to be responsible members of our society. And if we expect the Muslims to be self-policing then we must do the same ourselves and keep our leaders and commentators in-line.

To see some positive engagement, have a look at The City Circle site (http://www.thecitycircle.com). Their forums attract speakers from all areas of society and are helping to promote the kind of rapprochement that Saeed is advocating.

We don’t need to give up being Aussie (and contrary to the hysteria- they can’t make us) but we also can’t make them give up being Muslim. We have to work out a balance, because, as Saeed says, they are here and we don’t have a choice.

Ultimately- we can’t outlaw Islam- not and be the same Australia we all profess to love.