What a depressing response to Saeed's reasoned article. Those arguing that Islam is incompatible with democracy need to look to our north where Indonesia, with the world's biggest Muslim population, ended the Suharto dictatorship less than a decade ago to embrace parliamentary democracy.

This is not to deny there are problems with the integration of Muslim communities into wider Australian society - as Saeed admits - but those problems will not be resolved by ignorant, racist finger-pointing and name-calling - behaviour that Howard's dog whistle politics implicitly encourages.

It is just too easy for gutless politicians to play the race card on this issue and not look for positive solutions. And, as Saeed observes, the Muslim community must come to the part as well.

For the rest of us, the best advice is to avoid inflammatory rhetoric and exercise understanding and tolerance - the qualities that Howard says make Australia great.

I am not sure saaed saaed got it all that wrong:

It is unlikely that on their own the Islamofascisti and those suffering with unbridled Islamanoia will ever see these tensions as anything other than anus and them problem -

But that is how Howard wills us to veiw it - to do other wise would be to indulge in an examination of conscious that would devastate the man. He has a breathtaking capacity for refusing to apoligise for anything or ever admitting to any worng doing or over sight.

It is charactersitic of him not to admit to any flaws in a society he proports to represent - hence the rhetoric of Howard, Nelson and Costello about migrants - and strategically singling out Muslims as needing to "get with the program" - or indeed get out - it has giving life to nascent patriotism of the worst kind - which in turn will kindle further resentment - Saaeds view we may well be hurlting into an abyss may be a bit extreme - but without leadership his predoction may become true.

Yes the Muslims of this nation do need to address the internal tension within their own community - they themselves need to further marginalise the extremists - but at the same time the PM is charged to be a little more insightful than to tell the Muslim commnity to simply pull their socks up -

I think sometimes we're are guilty of looking for complexity where simpler solutions lie.

As someone with some experience of Lebanese Muslim families I can tell you that if the parents of these kids would stop drumming into them that Australian society is dangerous, evil and that they should isolate themselves from it to remain good Muslims, the seeds of the solution would have been planted.

Let's face it. Many of the Lebanese refugee families came here because they had to, not because they wanted to. Given the choice, our "permissive" Australian society would be the last place they would have chosen to raise their children.

aqvarivs - you are totally just in addressing this article for the sieve it is.

saeed saeed - I see you are a melbourne-based writer, but I shall attempt to not assume that you actually have only a limited first-hand understanding of the issues that surround the Sydney examples you have raised. However I feel obliged to point out that much of these "alienated" young Muslim men of Sydney's south-west you mention here are quite content being "unemployed."

The parents of this generation of Muslim youngsters came to Australia and admittedly worked hard like most immigrants of the time in order to provide all the things for their children which they hadn't. However unlike the Chinese for example, they failed to instill such a similar ethic in their young and instead spoilt them rotten. Of course they are going to choose to not tough it out in the workplace and merely hang out with their mates when their parents support and tolerate their antics so unconditionally. Must I mention just how many of these "unemployed" actually receive quite a healthy income from the narcotics industry?

**Cue violin** Now... I am a wog. I was born here but both my parents were hard-working immigrants from Greece. The harsh words and blows that I had to exchange growing up as a result of merely my heritage did not inspire me to jump on the victim bandwagon. I didn't feel obliged to become hot-headed and unreasonable just because it appeared that so many others were being so with me. I toughed it out, took the bad with the good, and at least gave others the opportunity to respect me for the person I am rather than excusing my actions because of those of the ignorant.

Sadly, it is an us and them approach that is required. I do not see any actions from the Muslim community that suggest they want to be a productive assimilating part of the "us". All I see is their apparent support of a self-alienating leadership.
....

(cont) If this leadership is not reflective of their true views as to their place in Australian society and how they view the "rest of us" then the ball is in their court to oust such personalities from their positions of responsibility.

Other immigrant communities have managed to find healthy places in Australian society because they have addressed and taken responsibility for any of their "wrong-doings" and because they managed to be tolerant of the hardships they have faced from the ignorant members of society. The Muslim community however continue to be led by those who have no wish to adapt and to compromise, but instead take the victim bandwagon on tour in order to pressure tolerant and politically correct nations to fold to their demands.

tsk tsk

So Mr Denmore,

Are you familiar with "Hizb el-Tahrir Al-Islami" and its vision for a Better Australia? and a better world?

Is that perhaps your idea of integration of Muslim communities into “the wider Australian society”?

Are you familiar with the Hizb' intentions before you call "ignorant, racist finger-pointing and name-calling - behaviour that Howard's dog whistle politics implicitly encourages"?

There is no future for Islam in Australia - unless we are invaded by our examplary Islamic Democratic Indonesian good neighbours.

I admire the restraint and patience exerted by our government in face of the blunt attacks to our liberal democracy and national security by this disturbing vocal minority group called: Muslims.

It shows real character and unfazed governance on the part of our authorities. (or complete foolishness)

I say to these ignorant trouble makers: Bring it on! – show the world how peaceful and gentle your religion really is.

And to the enigmatic silent “Moderates” majority – This is your only chance to brake free from the darkness of Islam. Speak up and prove to us that you are a victim of your own radicals who have hijacked your (peaceful) religion – unless of course you totally agree with them.

Any Muslim woman reading this – why do you continue to believe you are a whore? And unless you stay at home or hide yourself in a cloth tent if you must get out, you are the cause of sin to men?

Men and women are equal in our society – you don’t need to denegrade yourselves to your men who put you down and mistreat you. Do you really believe you are inferior unclean creatures equal to dogs and camels… and if a man watches you go by it annuls his prayer and he has to wash again?