Saeed Saeed,

Islam has no place in Australian politics or Australian society. Islam is simply at odds with Australian values.

You can breed like rabbits, intimidate with your violence, cry victim at every corner, it still won’t work.

The problem with Islam is Islam.

Unless you find some “Moderates” who will publicly challenge the doctrines of Islam, and make the necessary amendments, Islam will continue to be a curse for Muslims and a plague to the rest of the world.

The ball is in your court - so stop blaiming the rest of the world for your problems.

The unsolvable problem was created by the Whitlams, the Frasers and Hawkes and now Mr Howard is suppose to come up with a magic solution. The social engineers of the 70's, 80's and 90's have got their way. It is the same people who are demanding a solution. Throw out the true God you find out that socialism achieves only chaos. The vacuum is now being filled by false religions such as Islam. Australia's only real hope is repentance and turning to Jesus Christ.

Isn't it strange? Yet another Muslim with a victim mentality. "Our youth are being marginalised!" Who is marginalising them ?Themselves that is who.World wide, it is plain that this Multiculture enforcement of different cultures has failed.
Everywhere that Muslims have settled they are trouble makers, arrogant,demanding. Refusing to be part of the Australian people whom they obviously hold in contempt, yet we are supposed to give in to every whim, every demand they put on us.
Instead of wanting Australians to give in, how about Muslims trying to be Australians for a change.How about realising that you are doing us no favours by your presence here and that most of us would prefer you not to be.
And we do not appreciate being insulted by your so called clerics. They are disgusting racists , if our government had a back bone, they would send them packing.

I think the 3 posts above are perfect examples of the author's allegation of marginalisation.
Who is being intolerant now?

Saeed Saeed - Your article makes it sound like Muslims having isolated and insulated themselves from mainstream Australian society and culture now want that same society they have shunned to provide their needs and demands of Muslim society or else. And that the or else makes it not just a Muslim problem by an Australian problem.

Saeed Saeed, Hizb-ut Tahrir, are they part of your or else for Australia or are you just threatening riots and more rape.

Muslims are the ones with an us or them attitude towards Australia. Who wants to hire a guy who is going to demand Islam becomes part of the workspace or bring in their hatreds and anger and disrupt the workforce.

If Muslims want things to change they have some very concrete steps to take. Number one is to own up to their racism and religious supremacist BS and begin to stand with Australia as Australians and denounce the hateful rhetoric being spewed by Muslim leadership.
Don't ask Australia to reform if Muslims are not willing to conform, and to reform Islam.

It's not Australia's place to conform to Muslim dictates. It's for Muslims to become honest citizens of Australia and conform to that society. Get your shoes on the right feet.

"negative stereotyping of Muslims from the media and politicians"

So Muslims themselves have played no part in this ‘negative stereotyping’? The Muslim community has been singled out by the media for no reason? Not a week goes by in Sydney when we are not confronted with violent crimes committed by ‘Men of Middle Eastern Appearance’. Strange how so much trouble can be caused by a minority of the population. Just as there is no smoke without fire, there would be no ‘negative stereotyping’ of Muslims without a good reason.

'his “Us and Them” approach is failing dismally.'

Continual demands for special treatment, special handouts, special laws and taxpayer-funded religious apartheid come from the Muslim community, not from John Howard. The result is that many Australians regard Islam as a dangerous polity rather than as just another religion. Or wouldn’t you describe Muslims-only bathrooms and swimming pools as an us and them approach?

“it is an Australian national issue”

Laws restricting our freedom have been enacted because of Islamic threats and terrorist attacks. Australia did not have problems of this nature before the importation of Islam. The problem is unsolvable because many of the tenets of Islam are against Australian law.

Muslims will never change their belief in the words and example of Mohammed, and Australia will never change its laws to accommodate Muslim beliefs. How are Australians to feel about a $38 million handout to the Muslim community? $5 million will be used 'to teach Muslims how to live in Australia'.

That says it all.

What a depressing response to Saeed's reasoned article. Those arguing that Islam is incompatible with democracy need to look to our north where Indonesia, with the world's biggest Muslim population, ended the Suharto dictatorship less than a decade ago to embrace parliamentary democracy.

This is not to deny there are problems with the integration of Muslim communities into wider Australian society - as Saeed admits - but those problems will not be resolved by ignorant, racist finger-pointing and name-calling - behaviour that Howard's dog whistle politics implicitly encourages.

It is just too easy for gutless politicians to play the race card on this issue and not look for positive solutions. And, as Saeed observes, the Muslim community must come to the part as well.

For the rest of us, the best advice is to avoid inflammatory rhetoric and exercise understanding and tolerance - the qualities that Howard says make Australia great.

I am not sure saaed saaed got it all that wrong:

It is unlikely that on their own the Islamofascisti and those suffering with unbridled Islamanoia will ever see these tensions as anything other than anus and them problem -

But that is how Howard wills us to veiw it - to do other wise would be to indulge in an examination of conscious that would devastate the man. He has a breathtaking capacity for refusing to apoligise for anything or ever admitting to any worng doing or over sight.

It is charactersitic of him not to admit to any flaws in a society he proports to represent - hence the rhetoric of Howard, Nelson and Costello about migrants - and strategically singling out Muslims as needing to "get with the program" - or indeed get out - it has giving life to nascent patriotism of the worst kind - which in turn will kindle further resentment - Saaeds view we may well be hurlting into an abyss may be a bit extreme - but without leadership his predoction may become true.

Yes the Muslims of this nation do need to address the internal tension within their own community - they themselves need to further marginalise the extremists - but at the same time the PM is charged to be a little more insightful than to tell the Muslim commnity to simply pull their socks up -

I think sometimes we're are guilty of looking for complexity where simpler solutions lie.

As someone with some experience of Lebanese Muslim families I can tell you that if the parents of these kids would stop drumming into them that Australian society is dangerous, evil and that they should isolate themselves from it to remain good Muslims, the seeds of the solution would have been planted.

Let's face it. Many of the Lebanese refugee families came here because they had to, not because they wanted to. Given the choice, our "permissive" Australian society would be the last place they would have chosen to raise their children.

aqvarivs - you are totally just in addressing this article for the sieve it is.

saeed saeed - I see you are a melbourne-based writer, but I shall attempt to not assume that you actually have only a limited first-hand understanding of the issues that surround the Sydney examples you have raised. However I feel obliged to point out that much of these "alienated" young Muslim men of Sydney's south-west you mention here are quite content being "unemployed."

The parents of this generation of Muslim youngsters came to Australia and admittedly worked hard like most immigrants of the time in order to provide all the things for their children which they hadn't. However unlike the Chinese for example, they failed to instill such a similar ethic in their young and instead spoilt them rotten. Of course they are going to choose to not tough it out in the workplace and merely hang out with their mates when their parents support and tolerate their antics so unconditionally. Must I mention just how many of these "unemployed" actually receive quite a healthy income from the narcotics industry?

**Cue violin** Now... I am a wog. I was born here but both my parents were hard-working immigrants from Greece. The harsh words and blows that I had to exchange growing up as a result of merely my heritage did not inspire me to jump on the victim bandwagon. I didn't feel obliged to become hot-headed and unreasonable just because it appeared that so many others were being so with me. I toughed it out, took the bad with the good, and at least gave others the opportunity to respect me for the person I am rather than excusing my actions because of those of the ignorant.

Sadly, it is an us and them approach that is required. I do not see any actions from the Muslim community that suggest they want to be a productive assimilating part of the "us". All I see is their apparent support of a self-alienating leadership.
....

(cont) If this leadership is not reflective of their true views as to their place in Australian society and how they view the "rest of us" then the ball is in their court to oust such personalities from their positions of responsibility.

Other immigrant communities have managed to find healthy places in Australian society because they have addressed and taken responsibility for any of their "wrong-doings" and because they managed to be tolerant of the hardships they have faced from the ignorant members of society. The Muslim community however continue to be led by those who have no wish to adapt and to compromise, but instead take the victim bandwagon on tour in order to pressure tolerant and politically correct nations to fold to their demands.

tsk tsk

So Mr Denmore,

Are you familiar with "Hizb el-Tahrir Al-Islami" and its vision for a Better Australia? and a better world?

Is that perhaps your idea of integration of Muslim communities into “the wider Australian society”?

Are you familiar with the Hizb' intentions before you call "ignorant, racist finger-pointing and name-calling - behaviour that Howard's dog whistle politics implicitly encourages"?

There is no future for Islam in Australia - unless we are invaded by our examplary Islamic Democratic Indonesian good neighbours.

I admire the restraint and patience exerted by our government in face of the blunt attacks to our liberal democracy and national security by this disturbing vocal minority group called: Muslims.

It shows real character and unfazed governance on the part of our authorities. (or complete foolishness)

I say to these ignorant trouble makers: Bring it on! – show the world how peaceful and gentle your religion really is.

And to the enigmatic silent “Moderates” majority – This is your only chance to brake free from the darkness of Islam. Speak up and prove to us that you are a victim of your own radicals who have hijacked your (peaceful) religion – unless of course you totally agree with them.

Any Muslim woman reading this – why do you continue to believe you are a whore? And unless you stay at home or hide yourself in a cloth tent if you must get out, you are the cause of sin to men?

Men and women are equal in our society – you don’t need to denegrade yourselves to your men who put you down and mistreat you. Do you really believe you are inferior unclean creatures equal to dogs and camels… and if a man watches you go by it annuls his prayer and he has to wash again?

Readers may be interested in this synopsis of a German bestseller, "Hurra, Wir Kapitulieren," ("Hurray! We're Surrendering")

See:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,462149,00.html

Quote:

"...Today everything has changed, except the resolve not to hurt the feelings of Muslims. ...1.3 billion Muslims worldwide -- many of whom are thin-skinned and unpredictable. At issue is freedom of opinion, one of the central tenets of the Enlightenment and democracy. And whether respect, consideration and tolerance are the right approach to dealing with cultures that, for their part, behave without respect, consideration or tolerance when it comes to anything they view as decadent, provocative and unworthy -- from women in short skirts to cartoons they deem provocative without even having seen them.

Australia is not the only country feeling the heat of Islamo-Fascism. Hopefully we'll start to fight back.

Howard is conducting an assault on the hospitals, medicare, ambulance, the disabled, dental, schools, unis, pensions, firebrigades etc., Then there is the upcoming assault on workers through his new "workplace relations." In a devious way these relations sharply increase everlasting anxiety and boost wage exploitation. Moreover carrying through an unprovoked illegal war of aggression in Iraq. War overseas is always accompanied by a war at home against workers.

Howard uses an old well worn strategy to deflect attention outwards from his criminal workings by scapegoating immigrants or anyone from the Middle East. As well, to divide society along racial bigotry lines. The whole system turns on divide and conquer, divide and rule, divide and steal!

Odd, but most of the same arguments have been levelled against Greeks, Italians, Asians, Jews and even the Irish over the last hundred years or so of our history.

I'm afraid they will just have to put up with it until we find somebody we hate or fear more.

Mindless and rabid denunciations of the Islamic religion aside, I believe there is one aspect to this argument that is being ignored.

Time

As exemplified by meliorator, the experiences of all immigrant groups tend to follow the same pattern.

The immigrant generation grew up in another country in a particular social and political environment, more often than not in total ignorance of the ‘Australian’ way of life. They do not speak English and have not understanding of the social nuances of our society.

So they tend to ghetto- large numbers congregate in specific areas of the city where they can interact with people they understand and can relate to. They attempt, as they can, to interact with the primary population but find that, even if they do understand some of the language, they can not relate to the ‘Australian-ness’ of their surroundings.

Think about it: if you had a basic understanding of English, how on earth do you respond to an Australian who asks you in a pub “what do ya know, mate?”

These people then raise children in this strange culture. They do their best to instill the values they were raised with but these values come into conflict with the wider ones around them and their children pay the price.

This generation understands the culture in ways their parents do not. They try to live like Aussies but find themselves fighting their parents to do it. A young boy sees his school mates act in ways that his father says is bad- what do you do? And they do it in a wider culture that punishes them for their parents ‘unwillingness to integrate’. So, in their youth they are disillusioned and angry. Do they listen to their parents? Do they listen to their mates? Who and what is right?

This is the lost generation.

[...]

But they grow up. They get jobs and settle down. Their children are born and raised as Australians. They still practice their religion but not with the same fervor and they have positive role models. They rank being Australian as their culture. This generation is ‘Aussie-as’.

This pattern has been seen in every wave of immigration and the Muslim immigrants will be the same. It may be rough at times and incidents will happen. But they will be the minority- the majority will get on with life. We do not need to give up our Aussie life- understanding and patience will be enough and a willingness from everyone to meet half way.

Cheap-shots and point scoring from political leaders on both sides helps nothing. It only hardens hearts and entrenches the divisions. Each side needs to exercise some restraint and show some empathy. In the immortal words of Atticus Finch: you never understand a person until you put on their shoes and walk around a spell.

I think we can all benefit from a little walk

Mylakhrion:- "This pattern has been seen across every wave of immigration."

No it hasnt, We havent seen 2nd generation terrorist bombers before. We have never seen massive riots across multiple cities like we saw in France before.
Most of the immigrants who came before with the exception of some jews, rabbis or other priests didnt walk the streets wearing a tribal uniform (The robes,)which segregate them from the rest of the society with the exception of some rabbis or priests. With this lot the women wear them as well and although they've been in France for a few generations millions of them still walk the streets in this tribal uniform.

Mr. Denmore-; "The Indonesian Muslims threw out Suharto to embrace parlimentary Democracy."

The major difference between the Muslims in Indonesia and the Muslims in Australia is that the Muslims in Idonesia are not immigrants so Indonesia does not have the same problems of intergration that Australia faces with the muslims.

If the muslims in Australia fail to intergrate over a number of generations than the prospect of bloody ethnic fighting is a very real possibility especially if the muslims ever get the numbers to demand a sepratist state like we see in Russia and other countries. So the Indonesian situation is different.

Muslims need to go no further than the mirror.We are wise to your claim to victim status and racism.We have offered you freedom,jobs,wealth,social security and you have spat in our faces wanting Sharia Law implemented that destroys the foundations of our society.

There will be no more compromises on our behalf.Muslims most show that they are worthy of living in a free deomcratic society that accepts belief systems that are averse to their own,or suffer the conflict of their origins which they have sought to escape.

Mr. Denmore

Yes look at those democracies to the north. They're wonderful examples as long as your not Christian.

The Howard government nor the Australian people as a whole are doing anything against Muslims or Islam but, trying to understand a culture that would migrate to a place that they so obviously hate.

The Howard government nor the next government nor any government of Australia owes consideration to any portion of Australian society that will not integrate, will not adhere to the responsibilities of their citizenship.

Howard's attempts to "understand" the Muslim community go no further than the message "integrate or leave", which is a lousy, short-sighted solution to a complex issue and one that only makes the problem worse.

It might make you feel better to make blanket statements about Muslims and integration, but this gets us nowhere.

Saeed's original article above recognises there are problems and calls moderate Muslim community leaders to account for not doing more to address the underlying issues.

But our political "leaders" -- if they are true to their rhetoric about the mark of a democracy being respect and tolerance for the views of others even when you don't agree with them -- need to do more than just push the buttons of bigots for political gain.

The fact is that the tiny minority of lunatic extremists using Islam as an excuse to advance a fascist political ideology are more likely to extend their influence if our approach to this issue is just to tell all Muslims that their religion is incompatible with liberal democracy and they should all just "go home".

I'm sorry to have to inform those of you talkback radio listeners and Howardphiles who want mass deportations, but for the vast majority of these people, Australia IS home. They are Australian citizens and most of them under 30 were born here.

As to those who criticised my point about Indonesia's embrace of democracy because "only Muslims live there" need to check their facts. Indonesia is a sprawling nation of 700 million people. While more than 80 per cent of its population is Muslim, it also includes millions of Hindus, Christians, Buddhists and Confucian Chinese.
Most importantly, it is a strictly secular state.

Many thanks to mylakhrion and Mr Denmore for their eminently sensible contributions. To the Islamophobes: venting your xenophobic spleens in forums such as this may make you feel a little less personally inadequate, but do you really think that your comments are likely to improve the integration of Muslims in our society one iota?

Saeed's article seems to me to be a genuine attempt at approaching dialogue, and doesn't gloss over the Australian Muslim community's liability for taking responsibility for their own. However, if such attempts are routinely met with the kinds of bigoted and intemperate rants with which this thread began, then what hope is there for our society.

Mylakhrion is quite correct: what we are experiencing is merely a variation of the well-worn pattern of Australian parochial xenophobia against the latest group of immigrants. Take a chill pill, try a little tolerance and within a generation or so the so-called Muslim problem will be a dim memory.

As I've noted elsewhere, it's often an earlier migrant group who seem to display the greatest antipathy to subsequent arrivals - as our Greek friend exemplifies above.

I'm just waiting for the transference of our xenophobic angst from Muslim immigrants to, say, Sudanese refugees who are beginning to come here in numbers. No doubt some of the most extreme expressions of this will emanate from more integrated Muslim Australians.

It's a veritable Aussie tradition.

A timely and cogent argument, Saeed.

And, predictably, bound to get responses that reflect the shallowness of mind & spirit that keeps this government afloat.

p.s. Anyone care to define "islamofascism" ?

mylakhrion, CJ Morgan, I used to think as you did. I thought what we were seeing with Muslims was merely a "first generation" phenomenon.

The evidence points the other way. It indicates that subsequent generations of Muslim migrants are more radical than their parents or grandparents.

The opinion poll cited here is but ONE example that documents this trend.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/29/nmuslims29.xml

There is a more fundamental issue. Islam is not an ethnicity or race. It is a belief system. No one in Australia is forced to be a Muslim.

Is there any reason why the tenets of Islam should be exempted from critical examination; an examination that goes beyond what Muslim spin doctors and apologists say; an examination that looks at what is actually taught in Islamic schools and madrassahs across the world?

I have attempted this to the best of my ability. My conclusion. Hatred for Jews and, to a lesser extent, hatred for anybody non-Muslim, is part of the warp and weft of mainstream contemporary Islam. Of Islam 2007 if you like.

Perhaps Islam 2007 is a corruption of some better, purer form of Islam. But Islam 2007 is what we confront.

The usual riposte from apologists is that I could make similar remarks about, say, Christianity or Judaism. To some extent that is true. But, in practice, most Australian Christians and Jews in 2007 are quite tolerant. Among Australian Muslims in 2007, and among Muslims globally, an extreme, intolerant version of Islam seems to be on the rise.

I am not claiming that ALL the problems between Muslims and kafirs in Australia occur because of the nature of Islam. But some of them do. Non-Muslim Asian immigrants seem to have much less difficulty settling into Australia than Muslims so it can't all be due to Aussie racism. Some of it must be due to Islam.

The following oft-quoted hadith is definitely part of mainstream Islam 2007.

"..Then the rocks and tree would call: oh Muslim, oh servant of God! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him..."

Defenders of mass immigration of people from clearly incompatible cultures (Islam, Sudan) scream xenophobia at anyone who dares be critical of such madness. But it would appear that xenophobia does not fear or hatred of foreigners, it means just shut the hell up. Meanwhile immigration gets ramped up every year. muslim only toilets are being created, and severely drunk (and stoned) sudanese drive cars into primary schools, rape kids in playgrounds, slit the throats of grandmothers. But denial is the game of our privileged members of our society (the chardy socialists and the Johnny Howard team - both play the masses as fools) on the moral highground. An ugly (very ugly) backlash will occur one day against all this multicultural nonsense, pushed by morons sitting high in their ivory towers distanced from reality.

davo your a twat,
why use such vastly isolated, no not isolated but one off incidents as a means to describe one culture of people, what kind of rationality is that.. "pushed by morons sitting high in their ivory towers distanced from reality" yes thats exactly what your guilty of

Stephany: I'm sorry if I didn’t make it clear- the biggest issue exists in the SECOND generation, not the first. It is the second generation that we need to reach and support; just as it is this generation that idiots like Hilaly are appealing to. The British experience is the same as ours- if we can help the children of the immigrant generation past their alienation, then we can be reasonably assured that they will become, and raise, well-adjusted members of our community.

Davo- man, I don’t know where to start. Mass immigration? How many people makes a ‘mass’? Approx 140,000 people immigrated to Australia in 2004-5 (according to the DIMIA site), with only about 13,000 coming from Middle East and North Africa. By far the major source of immigrants was from England and New Zealand, with other Europeans making up fair chunk of the remainder. Somehow, I don’t think we are in any danger of being swamped by Muslim immigrants just yet

And before anyone spears off into a denunciation of immigration: who of you over the age of 40 want some form of support as you limp off to a ripe old age of 80-90?

I see a few hands up (or maybe out). So you do??

Well, I’d be thinking a little more about embracing immigration then if I were you. There is in interesting study produced by the ABS, comparing Japan to Australia (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/7d12b0f6763c78caca257061001cc588/fcdefb9501c34275ca2571b0000f1a9e!OpenDocument). Japan is aging at a far greater rate than us for one primary reason- we have immigration, they do not. If the baby boomers expect to have a large enough population paying taxes for the hospitals and other amenities you are going to need then immigration gets the thumbs up!

The only denial going on here is that practiced by minds too small to understand that you can’t sit back and expect everything to remain the same. If you are concerned about segregated toilets then get out there and fight it- the law exists for us as it does for them Don’t expect every one else to carry the can for you

I thought this might be of interest.
A little something for Morris Iemma.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=bca2b544-518e-4163-a29d-4fe8c23d1910&k=95849

And just one more reason people are fed up.
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=164742007

I note meliarator has assumed the high moral ground as the wog boy made good - he also offers s the sage advice the 2nd generation Muslim boys dont need a wage as they income is derived from narcotics - he also delivers the boring mantra - "let them assimilate".

The history of Islamic migration - if we exclde the camel herders from Afghanistan is quite short - like other commuities - Italians, Greeks, Vietnames each of whom represented the scourge of immigration at one time or another - have become integraterd elements of the community at the same time as mantaining their own distinctive identity - given half a chance so will the balance of the Islamic community - however no other groyp has faced the elvel of sustained and orchestrated vilification as have muslims - little wonder the more feral amongst them remain that way - and the vilification is countenanced by weak leadership internally and from the federal government who have abrogatetd their responsibilty here.

And as for the narcotics crap - it is a law and order issue not a race or religious one - if you can believe the papers the italian community in melbourne still seems to be fairly well connected in the under world - no one seems to make a big deal of that any more - coz its a law and order matter.

sneekeepete - "the wog boy made good?" When was I bad? Who is doing the assuming here exactly?

Sadly, it is people such as yourself who take the words of others out of context just in order to forumulate a specific argument which make productive dialogue between those of differing views tiresome.

This is highlighted when you mention "he also offers s the sage advice the 2nd generation Muslim boys dont need a wage as they income is derived from narcotics" - although clearly I pointed out in my post that in the south-west of Sydney (which was addressed in the article as requiring attention for high unemployment) there is a high concentration of spoilt Muslim youngsters with poor/no work ethics and parents/wider community who consider every action carried out by them as smelling of roses. Now if aforementioned youngsters see their older brothers and cousins driving around in their WRXs and wearing their bling, which avenue do you think sounds most appealing to them? How easily now do you think such "motivated" individuals could have their impressionable minds manipulated by religious extremists?

Sometimes we don't have to rely on a sensationalising media to see what is going on? Why ignore our very own eyes when we are experiencing it in our very backyard?

The "sustained and orchestrated vilification" you mention is perhaps correct. It is unfortunate that the actual problems never seem to be addressed and instead other ludicrous and damaging issues are highlighted. However to use that "ground" as an excuse is even more petty than the silly assumption of what my earlier post was deemed to be.

Let me also refresh our minds that we are dealing with generalisations here. I am delighted to have a number of muslim friends. Except out of this post I do not need to refer to them as my muslim friends because they are merely my fellow Australians who happen to be muslim.
....

(cont) They are fun, interesting, tolerant - yet they are also reasonably educated with supportive families who embrace this nation with the appreciation for the way it has embraced them, regardless of the occasional/frequent narrow-mindedness of the ignorant.

**Steps onto soapbox** Real Australians don't need to make excuses for their inaction - they forge a life for themselves in the face of adversity. So clearly with this issue everyone needs to come to the party. Yet if the muslim community as a generalisation are truly moderates, it is surely up to them to appoint moderate spokespeople to guide them through a productive process which Saeed Saeed claims he desires.

Oh btw sneekeepete - what non-boring "mantra" was your post conveying?

Woops. I must be at the wrong place. I am looking for The Forum. But this looks more like the Stormfront site. Or Tim Blair's blog. I'd better press the refresh button.

Mylakhrion

I am pro-immigration. I want to make that clear. This is not an anti-immigration rant.

Australia is a desirable destination for migrants. More people want to come here than we are prepared to take. We are in a position to be selective.

Let's be clear. We have barred people from entering Australia on the basis of their beliefs. David Irving, the Holocaust denier, was denied a visitor's visa and would not have been permitted to immigrate here.

I doubt that members of the White supremacist "Christian Identity" sect would be granted permanent residence visas. And if some were there would be a hullabaloo about it from the political Left.

Islam is a belief system. There is no such thing as a "race" or "ethnicity" of Muslims. It is legitimate to ask the following question:

Is it in the interests of Australia to bar people who adhere to at least some variations of the Islamic belief system from migrating here?

In order to answer that question we need to take a hard look at what is actually being taught as Islam in the schools and Madrassahs of the candidate immigrant's country of origin. If, as I suspect, we discover that what is being taught as Islam in, say, Pakistani Madrassahs is something barely distinguishable from National Socialism we have a problem. We would not normally allow professed Nazis into Australia.

I am not saying there is an easy answer to this; but I am saying we need to ask ourselves whether we are needlessly importing problems.

We also need to be careful of our terminology. Fredrick Toben of the Adelaide institute is a pariah but a Muslim kid who says the same thing is an "alienated youth" and we need to "reach out" to him?

Where does that process stop? And why do Muslims specifically appear to be so prone to "alienation?" Is it really all due to Aussie racism? Or is Aussie racism the default answer when we don't know? Could Muslim racism be at least part of the answer?

How much slack do we cut antisemitic Muslims?

Stephany

Likewise, I would like to make two points clear. I am not a mindless optimist (though my wife might disagree). Selection and settlement of immigrants is a complex balancing act. And you are right, we are perfectly within our rights to bar undesirable persons from immigrating to Australia.

Further, I also agree that Muslim immigrants provide a greater challenge than most other groups for a variety of reasons. However, I still maintain that time will solve most of the problems.

That being said, I also think that the current hysteria surrounding Muslims is counterproductive.

No rational person can support a leader like Hilali. Unfortunately, instead of criticizing the man, we criticize the group. In doing this we force them to close ranks because they have no way out: either Hilali is right and Aussies are all racist, or they are all wrong for being Muslim. And who is going to volunteer to be wrong! We don’t.

The lesson here is don’t make Islam the enemy. Make the idiots professing insanities the enemy. The crux of Saeed’s piece was that we all need to meet somewhere in the middle. If we give the Muslim community some respect, we have a right to expect it in return. If we acknowledge their right to be Muslim then they need to honour the obligation to be responsible members of our society. And if we expect the Muslims to be self-policing then we must do the same ourselves and keep our leaders and commentators in-line.

To see some positive engagement, have a look at The City Circle site (http://www.thecitycircle.com). Their forums attract speakers from all areas of society and are helping to promote the kind of rapprochement that Saeed is advocating.

We don’t need to give up being Aussie (and contrary to the hysteria- they can’t make us) but we also can’t make them give up being Muslim. We have to work out a balance, because, as Saeed says, they are here and we don’t have a choice.

Ultimately- we can’t outlaw Islam- not and be the same Australia we all profess to love.

mylakhrion,

You said we can't outlaw Islam.

We can't outlaw any system of belief. People are free to think and believe as they want.

But we do outlaw the public expression of certain beliefs. We do, for example, outlaw public expressions of racism. I have heard Imam's preach anti-Jewish sermons.

Can we outlaw that?

I should add that I am not Jewish. I have no axe to grind.

You say no rational person can support a leader like Hilali. Yet he does seem to have his followers. Quite a few of them in fact.

So does Sheik Feiz Mohammed.

See:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21074839-2,00.html

Quote:

"Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior).

"Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."

See also:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/video-nasty-attacks-jews/2007/01/18/1169095908942.html?s_cid=rss_smh

You may say that what Sheik Feiz Mohammed preaches is not "true" Islam. That it is a perversion of Islam. That is certainly what Muslim community spin doctors and well meaning people on the Left will assert.

But is it true?

Do you really know what is taught in madrassahs across the world?

It appears to me that what Sheiks Feiz Mohammed and Hilali preach is in fact a mainstream thread of Islam. Not necessarily the only mainstream thread of Islam but certainly one of the mainstream threads.

Some of what various Imams preach is barely distinguishable from some of the views Hitler expressed. If a Christian pastor expressed those view there would be outrage.

Do we excuse it because it's an Imam?

If Muslim immigrants present a greater "challenge" than most why is it wrong to limit the problem by curtailing future Muslim immigration? There are many suitable immigrants queuing up to get into Australia who, far from being a "challenge," would be a tremendous asset.

Why is it wrong to admit them instead?

If I am wrong in what I say about Islam I shall revise my opinion. But I need proof. Simply repeating endlessly "Islam is a religion of peace" won't do it for me.

Well done Stephany - you had me sucked in there for a while. At least five minutes.

What I don't understand is how these boofheaded ideologies like the fundamentalist forms of Islam and Christianity can somehow recruit otherwise intelligent minds to spin their causes. Like Stephany, for example, not to mention numerous other participants in this forum.

Every time i encounter one of these devious Christian anti-Muslim protestations, I have to marvel at the sheer viscosity of the utterances.

I reckon Stephany's BS rating - based on her/his most recent 'grease' - would have to be at least 20/50.

Slippery argument indeed... :)

The worst form of fundamentalism is humanism which often hide behind 'science' to justify every crime you can think of. Humanism has resulted in many more deaths than all the religous wars put together. That is without counting the murder of the unborn which amounts to millions of lost lives. The religion of humanism produces the most immoral, egotistic people on this planet. Funny that these god haters are often the first to appease Islam and yet hate the teachings of Christ. Strange world.

Me: "...otherwise intelligent minds..."

And then of course there's people like runner (and his coach).

Runner,

Humanism is “a philosophy…a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfilment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God.”

Nothing about hatefulness there. No, I can tell you first hand that they appear to “appease Islam and yet hate the teachings of Christ” due to the astounding duplicity of those who should know better. It’s hardly a matter of appeasement - I wouldn’t make concessions to extremist demands from anyone. Rather, the “importance of belief in god” seems counter-productive when you consider these valuable insights...



“The vacuum is now being filled by false religions such as Islam” (along with those other 10 000 false religions)

“the prospect of bloody ethnic fighting is a very real possibility especially if the muslims ever get the numbers to demand a sepratist state like we see in Russia and other countries” (ya reckon?)

“The unsolvable problem was created by the Whitlams, the Frasers and Hawkes” (I wrote to The Sun in 1973 and warned ‘em but did they listen? Nooo)

“An ugly (very ugly) backlash will occur one day against all this multicultural nonsense, pushed by morons sitting high in their ivory towers distanced from reality.” (one day this person will become an adult and maybe even have kids to share this with)

“Muslim boys dont need a wage as they income is derived from narcotics” (the girls, too)

“you are doing us no favours by your presence here and most of us would prefer you not to be. And we do not appreciate being insulted by your so called clerics. They are disgusting racists , if our government had a back bone, they would send them packing.” (aren’t you glad we don’t share a national border with anyone?)


There’s no point my rallying against the extremes of islam - that’s being well taken care of - but what excuse do these clowns have? Seems to me humanists are among the few not taking it personally.

No, Runner. The worst form of fundamentalism is that which encourages bigotry

Bennie, you could be partly wrong about a humanistic hate for Christ.

It is so interesting that as one studies more Greek philosophy, the strong love of the early Jesus remains while the devotion for the Christ well after the Crucifixion is not so inspiring.

Even though still regarding oneself as a humanist, the strong love and sympathy is still felt for those who were given to the lions in the arena by the Romans, but gradually laxes possibly owing to some of the Christians proving even more bloodthirsty than the Romans.

No doubt the Sermon on the Mount and stories like The Good Samaritan told by the young Jesus do fit in well with tales told in Socratic Reasoning.

Guess it is a case of retaining a mixture of Faith and Reason as St Thomas Aquinas was so affected when he wrote his great thesis that later brought on the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment.

To be sure it seems we could all do with some Enlightenment right now.

CJ Morgan,

LOL,

Of what "boofheaded" ideology do you suspect me?

To what form of fundamentalist Christianity do you imagine I adhere?

Still, I'm glad you think I have an intelligent mind. I sometimes wonder about that.

Fair enough bushbred, I can only talk for myself. Though I've seen no evidence from humanists of ill-will towards Christ, only towards the disfigured ideology many adopt in his name, or in the name of a competing ideology. It isn't reflected only in backward-looking madrassas. OLO will do just as well.

The world's a fascinating place, ain't it? The unknowable mysteries and wonderment of, well, "life, the universe, and everything" should be enough, shouldn't it? You'd think. Adding supernaturalism to the mix only complicates matters no end, and makes everybody right, and everybody wrong.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, bushbred. But my 'religion', as some would have it, accommodates everybody no matter what they believe in.

CHRISTIANS DEMAND SEPARATE EXCLUSIVE WASH ROOMS AT MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY.
Christian and University leaders defend this as it is "crucial to Christian prayer rituals"

HINDU'S DEMAND WATER FROM THE GANGES IMPORTED and placed at every University... the Ganges has great power to purify the Soul.

BUDHISTS DEMAND A 100 FOOT LONG SLEEPING BUDDHAH STATUE at each University "It gives the tranquility to meditate on the form"

BAHAI's DEMAND A SPECIAL PLACE TO WORSHIP AT EACH UNIVERSITY.

SIKHS DEMAND ALL LECTURERS WEAR A TURBAN...

Now.. just imagine if all this was true ! but hey..there IS one which is true, NOT listed above and here it is:

[A ROW has erupted over Muslim-only washrooms at La Trobe University that can be accessed only with a secret push-button code.

Muslim students have exclusive access to male and female washrooms on campus, sparking claims of bias and discrimination.

The university and Islamic leaders have defended the washrooms as vital to Muslim students' prayer rituals]
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,21129518-661,00.html

In terms of 'us/them' that would come pretty close to GAME...SET...MATCH.

Saeed ? anything to say ?

I refer the readers to my thread on '2 WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION MC and PC'

Hello Boaz David,

Now that you are done with your spleen venting, may I please ask you to refer to the herald sun article that you yourself posted in your comment. "Muslims need to wash their feet before prayer and in the past there have been complaints about them washing their feet in sinks, so this is a happy medium”. I attended Latrobe University and I myself did use the washroom for those purposes and out of respect to non Muslims students. When I explained this to non Muslim students they understood the logic behind it.

Also for your information, Latrobe University conducts yearly tours of the Latrobe University Mosque and Muslim washrooms to fellow non Muslim students. The aim of this is to explain the reasons behind the washrooms and other aspects of Muslim practices that apparently so enrages you.

I hope that in the spirit of understanding, I have respectfully answered your question. May I also please request you show a similar respect by doing simple research on Muslims issues before you go make erronious claims.

Thank you