boxgum. I don't deny you your religion however you wish to express your definition of faith. I do deny that you, your religion, or any other faith/religion has an inherent right to place your/their beliefs above mine in value or to influence law or "moral society". It is not the right of Judaism or Christianity or Islam to place their religion above the safety and welfare of society nor is it a right to battle for religious dominance using the general public as pawns in a super- religious cultural war. If you have something honest to offer society in a free world the people will come to you. If your found to be corrupt in the execution of your belief you will be judged by your congress. I have nothing against religion in itself. I do have something against those who abuse religion. Who weaponize religion. I will talk down any religion that uses it's social influence in an attempt to govern society. I'm reminded of Jesus saying something that(paraphrase) God will sooner listen to the prayers of a man from with in a closet than those from with in the finest church.
Jesus didn't think religion was that important. He encouraged individuals to open their own channels.

I was dismayed to read Peter blaming the Holocaust on secular religion. This delusion has its roots firmly in the creationist ideologies of the religious right (although evolution is the main culprit there) and should never go unanswered when aired publicly.

What makes it so obscene is the apparent dismissal by Peter of 1900 years of Christian anti-semeticism as a culminating impetus for the horrors committed by the Nazi regime.

Just as the knights of the first crusade, on their way to the Holy Land, detoured and used their military might to conduct wholesale slaughter of Jewish communities along the Rhine so did the essentially Christian nation of Germany express entrenched European hatred of the Jewish race last century.

The planes that bombed the ghettos were emblazoned with the cross as were the trucks and trains that transported millions to the gas chambers, indeed the highest military award of this army was the iron cross. All of this met by a wall of silence from the Vatican.

Maybe Peter, with due reflection, might indulge in an admirable Christian virtue by confessing the sins of his faith and asking forgiveness for the error of its ways.

West
'Could you explain how the real (not your imagined) world is not complex? '

I would rather you expanded your biased mind and learned the difference yourself. Have you even looked up just what a complex number is?

I use the analogy of real/complex numbers to clearly show you the difference, but equal validity, between what you see as 'neurotic imagination' and the real 'rational' world where proof is required before something can be believed in.

There is no such 'real' number as the sqare root of minus One and yet this value is of actual use and value in the 'real' world of complex numbers, allowing a new set of solutions for algebraic equations that represent our world's 'hard' 'unimaginary' evidence. One in which such 'imaginary' numbers have a 'real' validity even though their existance cannot be proven. So it is with Spirituality - it exists within us as humans and yet is incapable of 'proof' such as you require before you can 'believe' or have any faith in. (the proof exists for you if and only if you believe in it). How can you 'prove' your belief to one who will not believe in you or look with intelligence, instead of bias, at your 'theory's?

You show your own participation in the 'con' when you deny that God exists because you seem to only conceive of 'God' as some human-like supernatural being that 'needs' us to worship him as the organised religionists have let the less discriminating choose to believe out of their inability to think and discuss to the extent you and i can today. I hold no such fantasy as you seem quite willing (without proof other than 2+2=3) to believe/declare I have. You seem unable to allow for anything that cannot 'fit' inside your mind, as if your mind is the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not 'real'. It might be to you but you declare your truth has to be true for all others and anyone who thinks differently must be mentally ill in your restricted opinion.
(cont.)

Imagination is a vital tool to the intellect. This is not to say that elves and fairies are 'real' (at least not to me in the sense 'common' knowledge currently accepts) You possess a useful imagination (Einstein could not have devised his theories of Relativity without being able to imagine himself riding a beam of light) - do not deny the ability to similarly accept your spirituality, but use your current knowledge to deny for yourself ONLY that which truly and correctly holds false or no value and see that which is capable of benefit to you. (eg 'loving' your neighbour as yourself, do unto others...)

'Thankyou Boxgum for demonstrating spirituality is an obsession of ones own ego and religion is a game akin to Dungeons and Dragons. '

That is real 'sloganism' and is a sign you are getting desperate. Boxgum and you both deserve better of you.

Pi IS an irrational (real, not complex) number, which can only be accurately expressed, in real number, terms by an infinitely long string of digits that Aqvarivs could not eat but the merest slice before he died of old age. How little we truly know. The most accurate calculation of Pi to date is a little over 1 billion digits long (Guiness book of world records) suggesting to me that the true value is in fact, irrational and infinite. I submit this means viewing the real world as simply one of reality (that which can be expressed in terms already proven) remains a poor approximation.
The imaginary exists, how 'real' it is or whether it can/should be proven in the real world remains open (to me).

I believe it's use shouldn't be denied out of hand.

Merry Spiritual (insert your religion here)Mas everyone! Season's Greetings to you all:-) Presumably West and the anti-religion brigade have no reason to consider this a time to make symbolic effort to send goodwill and the giving of gifts and spreading of that un'proven' imaginary artifact of the mind of Man - Love - to all? Or is there a little hypocrite in all of us?

csteele.
Granted the long history of anti-Semitism in Europe was a disgrace to Christians whose Lord was a Jew. I think what the Nazis did was to provoke a nationalistic Christianity and use old enmities to stir up residual anti Semitism. National Socialism was certainly a secular religion and the German church it evoked took its eyes off the One who modeled nonviolent resistance for us. There were faithful Christians who stood apart form the German church whose god was the fatherland and German culture and many lost their lives as a result. As far as the Vatican is concerned I think the situation was much more complex that the pope just ignoring what was happening.

csteele.

Agree. Seclarism has been evolved from the middle ages until into 1800s. Since the twentieth century, there has been some of a rebound in religionism. The Jews have been slaughted by Christians for centuries, including ethnic cleansing to remove debts owed by Christians.

If one types-in "Humanist" plus "Massacre" into a search engine, well, very uninteresting. Type in Christian + Massacre and the screen lights like ChrisMas' tree (ahem). The practice of Christianity has been the antithesis of having an "unconditional positive regard for humanity" and life. Christianty's pages are filled with death, slavery, torments and torture. Humanism empathy and compassion.

The Christians have killed others, as readily as the National Socialists(True Sells, read history), but, have been endured from one slaughter to the next