Boaz,

Simple,

- I beleive in the basic tenents of the Ten Commandments and dozens of other commandments too, MYSELF. Love, compassion, civility and empathy, can stand alone.

- In early posts, I have mentioned Lawrence Kohlberg, whom measured morality. The OT players and two thousand years of the Church --with some exceprions, of course-- wouldrate quite low. The OT God torments its creation and the Medieval Church tortures people.

-- Crucifixation rates, as high maryterdom, but not a supreme sacrafice. Many people have died for their beliefs or been caught-up in political intrigue. For pure sacrafice and transfigutaion to work, Jesus can not be divine, he must loose base/touch with the godhead, true sacrafice. Moreover, the sacrafice would need to be universal not particular... no need for churches and atheists are saved.

-- If the supernatural communicates [I doubt it does.]. How do you know, it is not a prentender? A Satan would substitute the perceived grand for the perfect. Something it can sell.

-- Christianity [what became Christianity] is not differentited from its theistic contemporaries. It follows the same basic patterns and has the same components.

-- God would have infinite band width. Why churches?

What is it in Christianity than cannot be found in living a goog life ONE'S SELF? [ Except, afterlife, a concept predating Christianity by thousands of years. ]

Q: Was Jesus a carpenter in the Bible? [I really don't know. Have not seen it in print. Not a trick.] Thanks.

Oliver is right. In reality millions of people suffered far more than the fictional biblical character of Jesus. To humour superstition if Jesus was indeed immortal then crucifixion would have created less suffering than an adult trapped in a wrecked car in a remote area. Jesus would have the 'knowledge' that imortality and eternal life would have made the event to himself vague and fleeting within such a long existence. To a mere mortal who is about to die lesser tortures make for far worst suffering and panic. Many Cancer victims would have suffered a thousand times more than Christ waiting as the doctor utters the C word. Multiply suffering from child abuse to mental illness, loss of a loved one to falling out of a window and countless humn disabilities. Christ wouldnt know the meaning of suffering. If he was devine his crucifixion is then an insult for he could have used his magic to escape it, he did not, his suffering was martydom thus decadence. If he was truley magic and also moral he simply would have ended all suffering forever with a wave of his fairy wand. A spit in the eye for all kids ever locked in the wardrobe for days at a time Christ chose to be crucified again his suffering was martyrdom thus decadence.

West,

Good post.

Martin,

If I have swamped you, we can have you answer one or two of my questions each week [without links, please]. You answer the questions. Just hit and run is a pretty poor show. If you are busy just say so, we all can wait a few days.

The most glaring and most relevant point to make about this thread an attempt to vilify secularism most obviously an attack on human rights and multiculturalism, perceived political correctness (politeness) it the role religion has played and continued to play.

A few in this thread have mentioned Hitler and Stalin as examples of the evils of secularism but it should be noted that these are examples of the results of ‘spiritual’ religion. Both Hitler and Stalin are notable for the persecution of Jews. Such persecution was based on Christian persecution of Jews which continued for most of Christian history and with a comparable volume of victims. In essence Hitler and Stalin were continuations of Christian power. Despite the enlightenment pushing back Christian tyranny to a secular 20th century the Inquisition had barely been quashed (by the secular Napoleon Government). Sectarian violence between protestant sects in the 19th century were still smarting in the German states in the early 20th. Where ever there was Nazi occupation churches used the fascist war machine to settle old scores. Japan undertaking its own religious based war in Asia and the pacific continued to allow Catholic missionaries to practice in Japan.

Today we witness most of Islam hostile toward peace and intolerant toward humanity , we witness American evangelicals hostile toward peace and intolerant toward humanity , we witness Australian protestants hostile toward peace and intolerant toward humanity. In Australia the Catholic church hostile toward humanity. In the Philippines, Africa and South America we see the Catholic Church hostile toward peace and intolerant toward humanity.

"A few in this thread have mentioned Hitler and Stalin as examples of the evils of secularism but it should be noted that these are examples of the results of ‘spiritual’ religion." - West

---"When I wooke upon the work of the past four ywars my feeling is one of graditude to the Almighty who [whom?] made it possible, and who has blessed our work ... How could a man shoulder the of this anxiety if he had not had faith in his mission and the consent of Him who stands above us?" - Adolf Hilter 1937

Relda,

You have been reading Quintilian. Will come on this matter.

Religions was actually the idea of the royal aristocracy, a plan to stop us from protesting and attacking their castles. These same 13 bloodlines (Windsor, Bush etc) now all sit in their high n mighty castles laughing at how quickly we can be motivated to war. These people include Kolvenbach,the Black Pope of the Jesuits and the Catholic Pope whom he controls. This is why Muslims are allowed to kill Catholics and Christians, as a Christians blind faith makes them all too stupid to realize what they belong to and how they are used by the puppet masters to manipulate the truth and worship Lucifer with their love of money sex and all things physical. Even Robin Hood new taxes were just to support the rich but todays people are brainwashed by conditioning. The NIV Bible was written by a Jesuit in New York to make people believe that God wants you to pay taxes and follow the Governments Law when in fact a better Bible version says that the only Law is Gods law and Governance causes the death of the soul.(Muslims are against governance because of the New World Order and they love Jesus as the son of God) Everyone knows that the Popes are Luciferian and attempt to claim Jesus thrown. They actually hate Jesus and always show him as emaciated. They worship the High Priestess with beads and a Sun cross not Jesus cross.(Slander is only slander if it is not true so I say this with confidence) If the Catholic Pope loved the real God he would not flaunt a 24 yr old gay lover in the Vatican Freemason Lodge Eclasia and the Vatican Bank would not be the richest in the World but instead give money to the poor instead of the rich.
Your insignificance is now obvous as the elite hierarchy goes:
1. Elite
2. Economy
3. Peasants and tax paying slaves.

Now do you see why the Economy is more important than the people.
*You are the slaves who serve the economy to keep the Rich happy.