West,

In your 'REAL' world of truth/rationalism where does the imaginary/irrational fit?

And before you jump in with your personal bias, please consider the difference between a 'real' and 'complex' number. Do you live in a real world or a complex one? (or one almost entirely of your own bias/creation?)

I share your belief than much of mankind perverts organised religion into something to be avoided by rational people (I follow no recognised 'Religion' or attend a Church because of this belief) but i see the fault existing in the fallible mind of 'religious' men who fail to teach accurately the concept of each person's unique link to God, rather than the 'concept' itself.

You fault the concept, I, the participants. Like i said, you cannot say the 'religion' of Mathematics has no value merely because many people stuff-up their arithmetic, division, etc. Yet because you choose to remain blind to your own spirituality (it is there once you take the time to look) you say others who experience it for themselves are mistaken because it cannot exist. Why am i delusional/paranoid for believing I, and all life, contains a sptirtual component, but you are apparently not delusional for denying that you possess such?

Spirituality is as real in our complex world as the imaginary component of a complex number is in our REAL world, yet try to prove the imaginary part exists in terms of 'real' numbers and you will be faced with a similar dificulty. What exactly is the square root of minus one? Is it a finite 'real' number? Can you 'rationalise' an irrational number as easily as you dismiss the 'irrational' thought of God??

Keiran,
As a disbeliever in the infinite and absolute origin points in our Universe... I say the absolute origin 'point' of Pi is the (left-hand) digit 3. Why don't you prove your side of the argument/point by telling me what the last digit is, since clearly Pi cannot be infinite as it is simply an irrational number (circumference of any circle divided by it's diameter) not a 'relative' process? (excuse cross-thread post).

"The only way to teach values in School is to teach law, teach kids that there are consequences to action. Sex education teaches more and better weighed values than religion as sex education teaches consequences to action."

West, thats all very nice, but then there is a whole can of
worms there, as to why we behave as we do, which can take
us into the philosophical and ethical, without religion being
the driving force.

Do you only not kill your neighbour, not rape his wife or not
steal his belongings, because of the legal consequences?
What about the notion that as a community, its alot more
pleasant to live and benefits us all, if we cooperate, rather
then plunder each other and our respective possessions?

To cut it short, we can show that morality and ethics evolved
in various social species, as there was a benefit for those
who cooperated and lived in harmony as a community.

There is more to morality and ethics then just the law.

pi can not be expressed as a number and I will eat three of them to prove my point. :-)
It seems to me that religion places more emphasis on our existing to benefit God rather than God existing to benefit us. While any theologian worth his salt can argue any religious text inside out, the lay person is left to (faithful)acceptance and alone to struggle with the natural spiritual law that resides in every man and how that "spiritual sense" argues religion.
For the lay person religion is a debt, it's conformity. Where spiritualism is a more independent expression of connection and thanks with out programmed ritual.
Religion is staid, regimented, official, dogmatic and ritualistic. Spiritualism is like the spirit. Free flowing, self-expression unhindered by rules or boundaries.
Maybe the religions of the world could use a little more spiritualism and a little less of the need to be always right and in control.

Braindrain in the real world the irrational/imaginary belong in the privacy of the individual mind with the exception where it is packaged as a commodity for entertainment purposes and it is clear that it is fiction.

Religious beliefs are forms of neuroticism which should be medically treated but as it as critical mass as smoking reached or 19th century China use. There is a strong religious lobby protecting its right to deceive and manipulate to grow.

The imaginary is not real and a healthy mind can tell the difference between real and imaginary.

The belief in God is the cause of the perversion of religion as god does not exist and so every single piece of information concerning god is complete and total fiction ordered to mislead the emotionally vulnerable into believing. You say you share my belief than much of mankind perverts organised religion into something to be avoided by rational people but you are sharing in the great con because you are publicly espousing the deceitful assertion of the existence of god without proof of your claims previous to your assertions.

Spirituality or religion or superstition by any name is a game like dungeons and dragons. I have no concern with grown men playing with electric train sets in the privacy of their own homes. Indeed yes in their imagination the trains and model villages are real. Christians are people who try and claim those trains and villages are real and then seek to interfere with the lives of others based on their chji9ldish imagination. Without absolute proof of god and total proof any god is exactly what Christians (or any other superstitious cult) claim then Christians are wrong to do so and should if they are moral people keep a low profile and cease to use the public sphere as their playroom.

“A real world or a complex one?” Such a statement is nought but sloganism. Could you explain how the real ( not your imagined) world is not complex?

Yabby philosophy is only ideology and pointless to teach unless we teach children ALL ideology equally.

aqvarivs

Religion is the external practice of a faith.

In that sense I am religious.

Such faith should have a depth of resources as gift ( scripture, ritual, practice, revelations through saints-exemplar ) to illuminate a path toward the interior when the person of faith is readied for it.. The spiritual is of the interior journey.

In that sense I am spiritual.

Such readiness can be imposed through a response to a life tragedy, or can flow from a response to a moral life challenge, or I suppose through a natural sense of gratefulness for love encountered. It is a listening to the call "to come follow me", though heard often before.

The interior journey is where the seed finds rich soil to give forth new growth - the rich humaniser. It is also the place of the Dark Night of the Soul which is tough territory. This journey is unique to each living being. Each person's journey is as authentic as the other in the context of one's life situation.

Faith in Jesus, the Incarnate One, as the Son of God is understandably an offense to reason, as Kierkegaard expressed in his term the Absolute Paradox. Yet it is a position of faith which is a starting point. Many stay there as religious adherents.

Jesus's claim, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, whether from his mouth or of his emerging Church finding meaning in Him, makes for a specific route in one's interior journey to the God relationship. Take it or leave it. You can only take it from an informed position. Be it from the vast archival and teaching resources of the Vatican to feed the intellect or a simple scripture related story at a mission in the jungle.

St Augustine talked of the need for a balance of the personal, the intellectual and the institutional in one's spiritual development and exercise. I think one not balanced with the others leads to a comfort zone of a mix of religiosity, intellectualism, dogmatism, and ignorance.

Thankyou Boxgum for demonstrating spirituality is an obsession of ones own ego and religion is a game akin to Dungeons and Dragons.