Relda and West,

Judaism, Christianity, Mithraism and Zorarstianism all are theocenric religions of abnegation (reject the world.). Hinduism and Buddhism are cosmocentric religions, which also reject the world. Confucian and Greek philosophies are cosmocentric, and, accept the world. From these approaches we have many of the methods for the pursuits of what consistuents highest good,

(a) Mastery of the world
(b) Adaptation to the world
(c) Flight from the earthly ways
(d) Theoretical grasp of the world

Moreover, more primative religious designs, such with animists, have spirits, in things, such as rocks and trees. Spirituality is not on anthromorphic.

Lastly, many of the attributes, abovementioned, clearly exist in humanism, secularism, politics and science. Establishing a better life, controling the environment, debating differences (except Sells), and, understanding nature.

There is something foundamental to all these approaches. That would seem what we conventionally desgnate, "spirituality". Not, something, the Holy Ghost or even the Canterville Ghost. An ill-defined instrumentality which allows humans and perhaps high mammals deal with ecologies on a high level of existence. To the secularist it might justify moralities in the absence of mystical beings. A special level of cognition and empathy, but, raw intelligence or attachment. It underlies both religious ignorance and scientific pursuit. The crown monarch greater than any of its crowns (Thanks Bill).

Martin,

You challenge me to answer your unanswerable questions and I do. Know, I am post totally ignornat of history. Please tell me, where?
Aten? Are you saying he was not an Egyptian god. The Council of El? Are saying that isn't in the OT scriptures? Or do you deny the Hebrews/Jews wher malighned by the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans? Perhaps my appoximate dates for the gospels are wrong? The Judaic-Roman War? Other, mirror religions to Christianity? What? {West has already explaiined the Roman source documents.]

Sells,

You should read I.F. Stones's "The Trial of Socrates". There is interesting mention on the debate of those inclined towards self-rhetoric (you) and dialogue (me). You, meta[phorically, are like a snail until challenged. One small touch and its, whoosh, into the shell.

Martin,

(a) Please check my replies to Sells' latest article. I have very clear and succinct questions for you. Please look.

(b) Where are the (ignorant) histographies of Toynbee, Gibbon, Wells, Caroll and McNeill wrong, as these are the basis of my comments? Aten was not an Eypyptian god? Rome didn't exist? Paul didn't exert a Greek influence on the progress of Christianity? In terms of theocrasia, Christ and Mithras did not share many characteristics?

It can't be Nicaea (325), even Sells agrees the Council convened?

My approximate dating of the writing of some gospels? [Maybe, Paul's letters were c.55, not the early 60s. I can live with that.]

(c)I responded to your questions. Why not answer mine. Not some religionist site 30 degrees off tangent. I have not used Freethinker or Athiest sites.

Anyone,

Just for my interest. Bible 101 for me.

(a) Does the Bible actually say "Jesus" was a carpenter?

(b)Eymologically, in that period, was not a carpenter, a wheelmaker for car-ts? TV depictions suggest a wood-worker? License?

(c) Nazareth and Jerusalem on the map seem a long way apart to travel by foot. No mention (true/false?) is made of the Virgin Mary on the lead to the Crucifixion, but, all of a sudden Mary is at the Cross.

(d) If Pilate thought Jesus innocent, why did he do something so radical, as conduct capital punishment on Passover, which would have freaked the Jews under occupation? And Jesus had company.

Oliver may I suggest for a crammed history of the change over from the Roman to the Christian John Julius Norwich “A short History of Byzantium”. The first chapters of the book deals with the chronology of events surrounding the Councils of Nicea and indeed the influence of Constantine on the then new age belief of Christianity. The subsequent history to the capture of Byzantine by Mehmet makes good companion reading to other histories of Europe which you ‘may’ as a cross referencing reader see the influence the last vestage or symbol of the Roman Empire and the rise of a competing political God Allah in the South East had on the minds of Christian Europe.

Modern Christianity is certainly a different animal than the original Jesus Cult of the same name.

West,

Thanks I will look for that one, when next in bookstore or will send to amazon. I have read Burton Mack's "Who Wrote The New Testament - The Naking of the Christian Myth". I have not use it on these posts, because, I don't know how credible is Mack.

Very credible, I.F. Stone, finishing a thesis on the Trial of Socrates closes,

"That was the last glimpse that meagre history provides us the philosophical freedom in Athens until 529 A.D., when the Emperor Justinian closed the Platonic academy and other philosophical schools forever under the pressure of Christian intolerance and imperial avarice; their rich endowments were tempting." In Stone, Christianity is mentioned on only three pages of 250 pages and outside the key locus of study, so it is not about bashing the Christians, just saying it as it was in history.

Justinian, the Crusades, mass killings of Jews in eleventh century France, the Inquisition, Salem, the Church interfering with egyptologists in the nineteenth century, the Money Trials in the US,
the Vatican refusing to turns its lights-off where people could be killed in bombing runs, and Sells' self-supporting self-Rhetoric over open dialogue, today:

Well, Christians, if anything, are consistent. Two millenia, History's chief vechicle of death and ignorance. The hundred Hilters and two score of plagues. Hopefully, one day, humanity, justice and respect, will turn all away from the dark, dark epoch of the Christians, for all time. A fresh new dawn for humankind, built on love not hate, and, on sensibilities not unawareness, and, on debate not dictate. If one fails to hope for betterment, one fails to be truly "the paragon of animals", the best destiny for humankind.

Sells' dungeon of the mind or a Pope's dungeon in physical reality are not for me. We can do improve on this, We must.

Dear Oliver
you sure do like to complicate things old son....

Reading your posts causes me to imagine a bloke building a kit of a 1000 pieces, which is meant to end up as an eifel tower, but he ends up with a Sherman Tank....

Christianity is so simple.

1/ Love God with all your heart
2/ Love your neighbour as yourself.

Its being connected to the Father .through Christ.. the Son, 'by'...the Spirit.

Repentance and Forgiveness are the steps into that relationship.

Jesus preached a simple Gospel for a sinful world "Repent...for the kingdom of God is at hand"

Paul fleshed out the picture with his epic 'Romans' theology but the simple version remains as the distilled version "Repent...believe"

Its a simple call back home...from the One who made us and the world in which we live.

Secular religion ? my mind explodes trying to relate to that. But the term reminds me of this.

Romans 10:3
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Thats it...in a nutshell..thats Humanism, Marxism,Capitalism. Trouble is, establishing their own righteousness means deviating from the foundation, the anchor and in the stormy sea of life, could lead anywhere.

Boaz aside from God being myth and Jesus preaching immoral exclusionism, please explain how Tony Abbott or Jeffery Dharmer or Pinoche or Marcos or any of the popes or the inquistion, the ethnic cleansing of the Americas , the stolen generation , the IRA ,Timothy Mc Veigh, the Christians flocking to see Mel Gibsons films , the Christians flocking to protest against non superstitious films, the Christians that voted for Bush,Christians in the military,the thirty years war, the crusades, the thousands upon thousands of clergy arrested for child sex abuse , child assault,assault, fraud,the denialists of the truth of evolution and physics mirror your over simplified qualities of the superstitious?
When you ever find a Christian with the qualities that you claim in your theory ,please let me know. From personal experience the cult of Jesus has the opposite effect on people.