Oliver from my perspective if there is no evidence that Jesus existed then he is irrelevant to the claim that he is the messiah or god or was even a carpenter or had crossed paths with Pilate or Herod. If there is no evidence that Jesus existed which there is not then everything about Jesus is no more than wild posturing.

I understand your point and refer you to the story of Job. Job was a lawyer who was recorded in the Law of David (later the Hebrew Bible). Job said it did not matter if a person led a good life or a bad life it would not be of divine consequence. That is the good may live a miserable life, suffer an illness for years and die young in pain and the bad could a happy high life of success and die old in their sleep. Job basically claimed there was no such thing as divine Justice.

When Ben Sira rewote the law of David to turn it into an occult work to appease waring sides during an era of sectarian violence he rewrote Jobs observations as the book of Job.
Job existed, he and his work were recorded by himself as well as others who knew him or his work. Yet the fact that Job existed does not make Job in the Book of Job real. Ben Sira invented a character in the book of Job, both Jobs are mutually irrelevant to each other. If we had reference to riots on palm Sunday and a person called Jesus was some how involved in it that person is still not the god that is claimed, just as the real Job was not the character tested by god.

The claim is to be held independent of a casual relationship and must stand on its own merits. I cannot accept the claim of Lord of the Rings fans that Middle Earth exists on the basis that the Earth has a geographic middle. For this reason history cannot be used to support the validity of the Bible.

Dear Boxgum,
My reading of History, sees the advent of Christianity as mans' greatest disaster. The evidence for this intrepretation is so overwhelming that the need to eloborate is quiet tiresome.

Neverthless, If we look at technological advances alone; we clearly see that progress only occurs when the church releases its grip on ideas. The parallel growth of secular thought and technological progress is astonishing. This leads one to the uncomfortable conclusion that the Christian god is clearly a luddite.

After the Ottoman conquest of Byzantium, the great pagan literature of ancient greece and rome is smuggled into Italy. What had been lost, destroyed or buried is returned to the human soul. What follows is the modern era: the renassiance, the reformation, the enlightenment, the age of reason, the industrial revolution, Darwin, the technological revolution.

Unfortunately, we no longer teach our own history in general education; and even where we do, its often from some perverse perspective; fashion, womens rights, marxism, military advancement. Indeed, any perspective but the battle of ideas.

I harp on this because there is a clear continuous line from our ancient pagan literature to secular modernism. Christianity is the ogre, or in Hegels' terms the antithesis. It is like humanity decided to put the village idiot in charge. The village idiot then pillages the best of the ancient texts, destroys them, and what he remembers becomes divine inspiration and the sum total of mans' knowledge.

So whats the problem? Well its - relativity and post modernism. (see my previous post) This i maintain has stalled the advance of secular humanism and caused a minor backlash following 9/11. It has given the remnants of religion false hope and more than a little despair for the liberal intellectuals. But there is no going back - we now know there are an infinite number of planets in the universe - each is teeming with life. In this reality, Jesus goes the way of humpty dumpty.

I am used to vitriol in this comments section but it seems to have reached a new height (or is that depth) for this article. I suspect I have hit a nerve. My opponents are used to making easy shots at the faith, they are not used to the battle being taken up to them and all of their precious presuppositions being challenged. While we might have a civilized discussion about what Jesus being the son of God means, these people want to deny him even his historical existence, such is their fear. It is like year one on the French revolution or of Pol Pot’s regime, the past must be erased because it is far too troublesome.

There must be a creeping suspicion that something is wrong as secular humanism cuts its grim swath through the culture leaving only degradation behind. As culture grows thinner they must feel the cold of the universe against their bare backsides and wonder what the future will bring. None of them are serious about discussion, all they want is abuse. Oliver’s pathetic demands that I answer his questions that do not bear answering is a sign of desperation. There is indeed a desperation in this as indicated by the extremes of logic they are prepared to entertain against all of the evidence. I will continue to answer posts that presuppose that I have something interesting to say and ignore those that are pure bias. Who would have thought that secular humanists could be so irrational!

Sells come down off your cross. Just because you are thoroughly invested in the religion that promotes Jesus as a God does not mean that those who do not agree that Jesus is a God are therefore Godless. Not everyone who believes in God are religionist nor are they theologically barren for not being religionist. A lot has changed over last 2500 years try and keep up. Your forebarers of "the one and only true God" charged across the globe demanding conversion, the adoption of belief as well as governance. And the other religion of "the one and only true God" followed suit 800 years later. And the war continues inspite of science and historical fact. And 3000 years later all three religions of the "one and only true God" are still exclusionist

West,

"The fact that Job existed does not make Job in the Book of Job real." True, but, from my perspective, it would be helpful to know, if there is historical person/composite. Americans tend to "spin" their assassinated presidents in a like manner. Make the typical, great.

As you say, examination shows the OT and the NT be rewrites, re-positioning gods and borrowings. Trading myths is well known, eben primitive clans traded myths, say creation myths. Interestingly, some of the food taboos were pragatically complementary, so some animal species were presevered.

Again thanks for the Job facts. Didn't know that one.

Bushgum,

History is history.

Peter must be living in some remote playpen of the mind but if it is possible for him to escape from his world of theological babble and look objectively he may find that societies which have largely discarded religion are not hotbeds of sin and iniquity, but are often highly functional, safe and prosperous. Just seems that the more secular democracies all enjoy good social conditions never seen before in human history. In contrast no highly religious nation enjoys high levels of social health and indeed one can say where religion goes you guessed it ...... you get trubble.

Trubble like .... in the US of A, for example, where the most religious and strongly Christian states are a basket case with high homicide, juvenile and adult mortality, STD infections, abortion, teen pregnancy, and throw into the mix primitive gun laws and you see serious societal dysfunction.

ps
YEBIGA, I must say that was a very well put, clear understanding ......Particularly agree with ... "The religious create and sustain immovable myths to awe and ensnare; to bend reality to a predetermined and inflexible narrative. The comfort this generates empowers the adherent with a fantastic disingenuity."

........ which approximates our Peter.