Chris S

you asked:

"Perhaps we should be asking, what is wrong with men? Why do men rape? Why do men believe that women are there for their use? Why are so many men raised with no respect for the other? Why are men so violent? Why do men hurt and abuse women and then claim provocation as an excuse?"

I will add: why do people steal, murder, commit traffic offences, shoplift, cheat on tax, plagiarize essays, pirate music and video and every other law breaking activity that you can think of?

Because they do.

We have laws to try to prevent illegal activity and to try to maintain order and protect the members of society. But people, both male and females, consistently break laws in many ways.

Lets not look at rape as a crime that can be divorced from all other crimes: it is one of many, that can be deemed to include breaking the laws against underage sex (when was the last time that you heard of a 16 year old guy being charged with carnal knowledge of his 15 year old girlfriend?) This sexual activity is against the law, but people still indulge.

We have locks on our doors and windows to deter burglars. In NSW there are laws against leaving cars unlocked. We have speed signs, cameras etc all over the place:

We are threatened with legal sanctions for doing all sorts of things to our fellow humans that we would not want done to us.

For years there were laws against prostitution, none of which worked, because men were willing to pay ridiculous amounts for sex whilst women were willing to take risks for that money.

But the courts are still busy.

Sadly, it is the nature of humanity.

There has to be three approached to law: education / training to try to influence potential lawbreakers not to, punishments of lawbreakers AND basic security issues - the use of locks. Think about it.

Neither the shiekh or the pugilistic pastor has a point.

But I agree with many even the redoubtable BD and Leigh the manner in which women dress does have an effect on men - it is our job to reject this satan and insist he get behind us - if we cant do that - even in the face of extreme provocation from the chikee babes - it is our problem to deal with.

Having said that - put a penis on camera, flaccid will do - reduce the sound quality of any sound track on any almost any music video and you will have what would be described in most jurisdictions as pornography - some would argue it is porn with or without the male member .

I only raise this as poor old Leunig alluded to this himself a few weeks ago and was allof a sudden aligned by some member of the commentariat as siding with the SHeikh - all he really said was this is all a bit weird - and it is - so thier is littel wonder the shiekh get shocked - but his logic from that point is flawed

The entire debate revolves around the rights and needs of women, but men's needs are being ignored. Sheik Hilali and modern feminists are each at the extreme, opposing ends of a concept which needs to be balanced out. Women's state of dress or undress is about more than their right to dress as they please. It's about fairness to men, too.

I don't believe women can ever truly understand the strength of male sexuality. It's not like a woman's appetite for, say, chocolate. It' s not something we laughingly say we're "addicted" to and like to indulge occasionally. It's something that's with us all the time.

All male behaviour is dictated by the drive to secure more females and more sex. Societies squeeze in into civil terms, but sex is solely responsible for the desire to wield power, drive big cars, fight, earn money...the whole kit and caboodle.

For all men - but single ones especially - seeing gorgeous, unobtainable women advertising their sexuality can border on physical pain.

If you passed someone starving in the street, would they have a right to assault you and take food from you by force? Of course not. But would it be reasonable for you to exercise your right to dangle food in front of them and tease? No.

Naturally, someone will now say I'm advocating veils and burkas for women because men can't control their sex drive. It's more nuanced than that.

Women need to understand that men can control their urge to ogle and chase every sexy woman they see, but I cannot emphasise enough that IT'S UNPLEASANT FOR US! It's like asking a woman to be serene and patient while menstrual cramps are clawing her belly apart.

There's a bit more...

Sadly, at this point in time it's impossible to convince women that men deserve some degree of sympathy for being utterly driven by sex.

Feminism is very new to society and it's a good thing for us, but we've gone from a world where men's rights were paramount, to one in which women's needs are critical and men's are ignored. When we reach the middle ground we can move forward, but we're not nearly there yet.

Sanco, here is one male who is driven by a variety of things. The satisfaction of a job well done or a new thing tried and mastered is much higher for me than the possibility of getting a bit.

Sex is important and some of the points you make are important, some teasing is abusive but I've not come across any of that for years. Young girls trying out their new found power is the only time I can remember. I suspect older women deliberately abusing that power are rare (depending on the circles you move in I guess). The ones who play those kind of power games are somewhat of a turn off anyway.

In the mean time if women wish to dress in a manner that I find appealing (for whatever their resons) then I'll think to myself "thanks for that" and expect no more.

R0bert

No man ever died from a lack of sex.

Yes, it is an important drive, but not one that cannot be dealt with.

At the very least this drive can be dealt with by sex between one consenting adult.

Rape can never be excused in terms of a need for sex, there is proportion of rapists who, in spite of getting all the sex that they could possibly want from a regular partner, or partners, or who could afford to pay for it on a regular basis, still rape.

Having said that, I believe that the claim that rape is all about power is just feminist cant, of the same kind that states that all penetrative sex is rape because it exploits the woman's body.

It should be remembered that women also have sex drives, that can be destructive: there have been, in the news, a few examples lately of female teachers who have abused the trust of society by having sex with underaged male and female students. This is as equally abuse as when the teacher is a male and the victim an underaged student.

The other problem that we are facing is the action of some young women. The old legend, about, for instance, the Maroubra Seals club back in the 1980s was that a guy could randomly ask girls, on a Saturday night, for sex. Generally a guy would get a lot of knock backs, but would generally get one positive response in a night. I am sure that others can confirm this type of story has happened at other venues and situations.

If every woman refused such requests on every occasion, then the requests would soon stop. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes, when a girl advertises herself as being available by dress and manner, she actually is available.

Some consistency here may be helpful.