Sharkfin

Exactly how are women emasculating men in western societies?

Is it by earning a living? (Women still earn much less than men at equivalent levels of education and experienced – Women still occupy the majority of low paying jobs. Taking the pill? (Not so long ago if a woman fell pregnant she had to marry the man – often to the mans benefit as this meant for him sex, children and a housekeeper and control of his very own empire - his home) Not accepting violence? It is not so long ago that domestic violence was not a crime and only in the 1980’s that rape in marriage became a crime, (before the Women’s Property Act in the 1880’s women were treated legal property of their husband or farther and were not legally able to own anything – every possession in law from clothing to inheritance was the legal property of firstly the father and secondly the husband - it was by the issue of marriage certificate that the woman became the property of the husband and their fore he owned her – and as she was his property - he was legally able and entitled to force sex - this concept hung around in law until 1980’s).

The idea that women are emasculating men is a myth. Only a man can emasculate himself - by behaving like a spoilt child when it comes to sexuality. If a man can only be man by holding power over women he is not a man at all. Accepting the responsibility of being an adult – being responsible for all you own thoughts and actions – that is being a grown up – for the male gender – a man.

The person who calls himself or herself "trueaussie". There is nothing Australian about your methods. Calling people names is childish. Your posts reflect badly on OLO and my country.

Numbat: You actually raise a good point. It does seem that naked Indigenous women of certain cultures weren't as sexualised as modern women. And, I think, there is a kind of irony in the way that Islamic culture has sexualised near completely covered women. Hmmm. Beyond me.

Maybe a true anthropologist out there could help us out here. But then again why would anyone with an ounce of self respect and credibility post here knowing that certain other posters who have another opinion are just going to abuse them rather than engage in sensible debate?

Maybe Graham Young needs to rethink his definition of "robust debate". Anyone can resort to abusive and disrespectful behaviour. Nothing robust or convincing in a post that resorts to personal attack.

I haven't seen the Leunig cartoon, (and I often find myself disagreeing with him,) but there could be other plausible interpretations of its intention. Rather than trying to suggest that women are responsible for provoking unwanted attention, perhaps he was trying to show just how silly the sheik's comments were. (Just putting that one out there- I may be horribly, horribly wrong.) Leunig is no stranger to sarcasm and irony.

To Elka- I'll think you'll find that the vast majority of men found the Mufti's comments, and the attitude towards women displayed, to be appalling. I think what has raised the ire of many here is the suggestion that a large proportion of men agree with such views.

To Country Gal- You're right, men should be outraged by the mufti's comments, implying that they have no self control. I for one would like to add my voice to those ranks of men who state categorically that his comments are offensive to both men as well as women.

The mufti's apology could also belie an antiquated view of women. "You are the cherished pearls, the dearest thing in the world." (see http://weblog.javazen.com/?cat=10,) There is a tendency to simultaneously present women's sexuality as a tool of the devil, but also to deny them any sense of agency. A sense that women are so pure, so above the base nature of men that they have to be hidden away and protected. Thus, in putting women on a pedestal, Islam perpetuates their enslavement.

There is also a tendency to present women in the same manner in the bible and in Christian literature. Being raised in a fundamentalist Christian household, I was warned that I would meet women whose only intention was my seduction. My response? Bring it on. Oh, how fun giving into temptation can be! Religious fundamentalists are right to fear sex. It was one of the key reasons I escaped.

I think women are awesome. But I'm also under no illusion that they're sugar and spice, and all things nice. The irony is that this illusion is shared by much Feminist theory, which presents women as perpetual victims. (The issue of DV has been hijacked by such a viewpoint, and unfortunately, those who point this out are unfairly labeled misogynists, as seen on a number of threads on this forum.)

To JamesH- keep your chin up buddy. As I said, women are awesome. Who cares if you're damned if you do. It can be a hell of a lot of fun along the way.

And vivy sounds like a good place to start...

Sharkfin

You miss my point. Women are responsible for their own image and perceptions not men. Feminist want to raise the social influence of females in a male manufactured environment(emasculation) not in a female manufactured environment. Jane Fonda and Gloria Steinman(?) were both on an episode of Colbert Report saying that the next stage of feminist authority is for women to have their own radio station. That will bring them closer to an equal social standing? There are no women in radio or T.V., print media. Don't tell me Oprah and Martha Stewart aren't equal.
I'm sorry, if women want to be equal to men they're going to have to stop this sexual competition and get on with their life. Men do not compete with women by design, we just do our thing. Guy stuff.
Which is why since the beginning of time we've made every excuse to get out of the house. Cheers.

Aqvarivs

I was speaking about how many men will not own up to the fact that sexual violence against women is a massively ignored problem and how unfortunately, it is a widely held belief that women “ask for it” (especially if dressed “sexy”) or are responsible for it in some other way.

I agree with you that fashion magazines and the women who run them and the women who pose in them contribute to the view that “women are objects for men’s satisfaction, the way to be fulfilled is to increase the value of your commodified body, to be appealing to men.” These magazines oppress women in my view.

But we were talking about sexual violence, I don’t care how “appealing” a woman looks, if a man decides to throw himself on a woman, it is his responsibility alone. Men aren’t animals are they?

“All those who strive for victim status ought to go about in a black sheet, covered from head to toe, so the rest of us can stay out of harms way. “

Many women have had to do this recently. They have had to stay inside their homes rather than go out exercising because of some idiot rapist. Have any men ever avoided leaving the house for fear of rape?
You said, let men be men and women be women as long as no one does any harm. Will the men please stop doing harm now please? Oh good, got that sorted