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The Forum > Article Comments > 'Uncovered Meat' meets 'Mr Lust' > Comments

'Uncovered Meat' meets 'Mr Lust' : Comments

By Bronwyn Winter, published 7/11/2006

It is still the norm in the collective Australian psyche to consider women as sexual predators of unwitting men who simply can't help themselves.

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Ena
We are not all the same, equal, alike, valued, nor deserving of common decency and respect or position. Your sentiment of universal equality is belied by your use of words like Jews, Christians, black, white, apples and oranges. You assert that equality be applied with out regard to these identifiers because everything has the same value in nature.
They don't. Nature is about the hunter and the hunted. There is no equality other than all of nature be expressed naturally.
Except for humans, We consider ourselves above nature and feel inclined to social management. To be socially correct. You can't dismiss my unfounded blather because I have feelings. My opinion is just as valid as your hard earned experience. I deserve(not have earned)equal opportunity. Everyone is equal and all the same.
Except, nature has put in a little safe guard. It's called instinct.
And our instinctive perceptions argue the imposition of social manipulation and so we have more social discord not less. People naturally want to earn their value not be given it. No real person of value wants his or her value legislated, only cheats and liars seek fraudulent identity.
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 10 November 2006 12:01:53 AM
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ronnie peters said, "Yes I agree there is an undercurrent of disrespect for women in our culture."

With some, yes, however it is no more so than the undercurrent of disrespect for men.

Let's not idolise women, all have their moments and some have quite ugly attitudes.
Posted by Cornflower, Friday, 10 November 2006 8:46:25 AM
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equal

• adjective 1 being the same in quantity, size, degree, value, or status. 2 evenly or fairly balanced: an equal contest. 3 (equal to) having the ability or resources to meet (a challenge).

• noun a person or thing that is equal to another.

• verb (equalled, equalling; US equaled, equaling) 1 be equal or equivalent to. 2 match or rival.

— ORIGIN Latin aequalis, from aequus ‘even, level, equal’.

this is the Oxford dictionary definition. Nowhere does it say that it means "the same as" or "identical with" indeed, it says equivalent to. An apple is a fruit, the fruit of the apple tree, it passes on the genes of the apple just as well as the orange passes on the genes of the orange tree. They are not the same, they are not identical, they may differ in terms of juiciness or flavour or nutrition, but as the fruit or seed pods of their respective trees they are of equal value to their species and to their planet.
A woman is a human animal, of equal value to her species and her planet as her male equivalent. She is not the same as a man, nor, indeed, unless she is an identical twin, is she the same as any other woman, but her value is equal to every other human animal. No more, no less, no matter her individual strength, health, brains, aggression or whatever. In rights and inherent value she is equivalent to any other human animal but, no, she is unique, she is not the same as any other man or any other woman. That is why using "equal" to mean the same and then arguing that men and women are not equal because they are not the same is a non argument -to prove that, you'd have to rank every human in the world. If you want to argue they are not equal, you need to come clean and agree you are argung that you believe men have greater intrinsic worth or value than women, or vice versa.
Posted by ena, Friday, 10 November 2006 2:54:39 PM
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Great comments have been made, I don’t have to add much.
I agree with the author that Hilali’s remarks are not only insulting to women but also to men.
But the Dr Winter makes it even worse by saying that the norm in Australia is to consider women as sexual predators of unwitting men who simply can’t help themselves.
I don't think this is the general norm.
Now not only Hilali has insulted both men and women, but Dr Winter has also bashed the Australian norm in regard to this matter.

Women in primitive tribes are almost naked; I wonder whether the rape rates there are much higher than in the Muslim countries where women totally cover up.
Forced marriage also counts as rape, I should think.

Runner, it’s not ‘looking’ that is a crime- it’s raping. Fashion can never be the problem- rape is a power thing, it is aggression and violence towards women.
If fashion is blamed for the rape of women but not the rapist, then the items in a shop would be the problem but not the shop lifters. The criminals are the thieves and the rapists, not fashion or sales items.
Vivy “My best australian born friend (with what I term as no body shape) can wear exactly the same clothes as I do…”
Do you always put your friends down? You sound like you are more concerned about advertising your body than about the feelings of your best friend. Charming!

Gecko
“We should at least empathise with that cultural unease, it is real for them. As confronting for them as it owuld be for us if we, in the 1950s, were suddenly thrown into the 2000s, with our vastly relaxed sexual customs.”
Wonderful different perspective added to the conversation. Not that it will change our fashion, but it‘s a good habit to look at something from the other side’s pov and is often forgotten by many. I think it might be quite hard for most people to be tolerant about intolerance though ;)

continued
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 10 November 2006 3:10:46 PM
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The respect for someone else’s property is missing. Criminal behaviour in where someone else’s property (either body or possessions) are abused by rape or stealing is a form of aggression in where violence is used to get what the offender wants.

I think Ena explains well what is meant by equality, but is misunderstood by some. In a time where many people want to be different or seen as individuals, perhaps the term equality is not favoured. Many people want to be quicker, richer, leaner, more successful and more beautiful than the Joneses.
The hard reality is: we are all equal. Meaning, we all have the same value.
As Ena explains as I interpret it, there is much room inside the box of ‘equality’ for being different.

Without equality there can never be total freedom or peace.
An apple can not be superior or inferior to an orange because this judgement would depend on who’s judging. If you say that an orange is superior because it is more juicy than an apple, I figure that the judgement is made by someone who likes juiciness. Another judge might prefer ‘crispiness’ and would exclaim that an apple is far more superior. Therefore, an apple and an orange are equal.
Men and women are equal; people who do the judging merely express their opinion but there is no proof that their judgements are facts.
We are all people, and in principle we are all equal. Therefore we all should have equal opportunities, equal education etc. We all should be treated with respect and treat others with respect because no one is superior or inferior to us.

Quickly addressing criminal behaviour: a factor to take into account, when thinking abut the cause of criminality, perhaps is the feeling of inequality.
Did criminals in their childhood receive an equally good upbringing, equally good opportunities of e.g. education and environment, and equal respect than non criminals or successful people?
Posted by Celivia, Friday, 10 November 2006 3:11:31 PM
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Ena. You are talking of something in itself. I am talking about the external qualities, characteristics that are superior or inferior, or processes that can create superior or inferior outcomes.

You say : “ They (an apple and an orange) are not the same they may differ in terms of juiciness or flavour or nutrition, but as the fruit they are of equal value to their species and to their planet.” They are not the same value to me though in a particular situation. The orange is superior at giving a nice juicy snack.

It must follow using your apple/orange argument that a rapist and a respectful male are of equal value to women and society. Paraphrasing your argument further, they (a rapist and a respectful male) are not the same they are not identical (agreed – I will put my refutations or agreements in brackets here in this para) they may differ in terms of behaviour (agreed they differ and at the same time I disagree because some behaviours are superior to others – we judge this by the outcomes - rape is horror and respect is nurturing ) but as males they are of equal value to their planet. (This thinking is flawed. Again the rapists display inferior qualities and create harmful outcomes).

Whether or not rapists are inferior human beings and useful to the furtherance of the human condition is your decision. I think rape is extremely harmful – no excuses. Thus, given that all things are measured in degrees, I think rapists are inferior scum with little, if any, intrinsic value. They destroy their own value.

I am not arguing that ordinary men and women are not equal in the context of their humanity. I am recognising in a non-value laden way that our difference in sex, gender, socialisation and individual characteristics does create in some men (and women) abilities and behaviour that are inferior or superior.

More to come
Posted by ronnie peters, Friday, 10 November 2006 5:52:13 PM
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