I am in a constant state of relaxation Leigh - and I never worry about you -

and let me add I love the bit about being patient and doing your best to b polite - and being more than a match for FH: so manly and assertive.

And you should really stop misrepresenting the views of the "silent majority" - they were speaking to me only the other day over coffee and cake - and they love Islam - they're not that silent at all.

And as for knowing what you do and do not know old chum - your 570 posts since August 2005 have given us a fair insight into what you do and dont know or think - any way he accused you of commiting a public display of ignorance - not of being ignorant in an absolute sense

even the great Sneekee has committed such displays

2night I was ATTACKED by a Muslim... he kicked me in the stomach.. quite hard....

:) Well.. it so happens that it was my new friend from Gym, and I asked him to try some front kicks so I could test out a couple of good aikido moves I watched Steven Segal do.... Not quite as easy in real life as in the movie I found.

Ok...enough attention getting trivia :)

TOPIC.
I struggled to fight my way through the article, which was long on words and short on punchy conclusion.
Nayeefa contrasts Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

Knowing a fair bit about Indonesia, I'd have to say its more of a cultural Islam than "Islamic". It would be interesting to know how may Indonesian "Muslims" pray 5 times a day. In Malaysia they sure don't because many are walking around the malls or on the bus or train at the prayer times. It simply doesn't work in a modern society.
But.. without question it is a central and compulsory part of Islam.

Saudi Arabia is much closer to how an Islamic state would end up, given enough time.

The true test of Islams ability to adapt to the world is found in its willingness to allow conversions from Islam to Christianity or other faiths.
I read some inCREDible reports from a Malay Muslim Imam that there are up to 70,000 Muslims in Malaysia seeking to have their religious adherance anulled. I didn't believe it at first but checking the sources, it turned out to be true (i.e. the report).

This would never be allowed in Saudi.

We must never forget that the goal of Islam is the rule of Sharia.
This rather limits the political possibilities, so I don't know why Nayeefa woffled on so long as if there are other modified goals.

Leigh,
You show distain for Islam, but preach kowtowing to the Government of Indonesia where nearly 90% of the Cabinet and of the people are Muslims.

Coach,
You said: "Indonesia – out of control. Anarchy is perhaps the best description. Muslem clerics are in charge of the ignorant masses under a puppet government."
You're even more ignorant than Leigh and you obviously haven't read the results of research on the attitudes Indonesian Muslims published in the "Jakarta Post" today. 82% said they support democracy and only 5% said they opposed it. Only 10% said they would vote for an Islamic party in the next election. Only 17% said they support Jemaa'h Islamiyah and just 10% said they support the Bali bombings.

Those who assert categorically that Islam and democracy are incompatible have to ask themselves why it is that Indonesia after the fall of Soeharto in 1998 didn't choose (a) another military dictatorship, or (b) a theocractic Islamic state. What system did they choose - democracy of course and no one forced them.

Religion is all about the power of mortal men and thus should be treated with the skepticism it deserves.

We constantly see articles from the two chief protagonists,ie Christians and Muslims but almost never do we see articles from Hindus,or Buddhists.

This constant banter with the toing and froing of images portraying oppressed victims,laced with veilled threats of violence,is just the softening up process that will eventually see the free people in our society relent,and slowly watch our democracy dissolve.

When the religious totalitarians get into power,no matter what the denomination,they can do anything in the name of their god.When the Catholic Church had total power it was ruthless and corrupt.I suspect the Islamic faith will be no different.

Arjay... I would be as opposed as you to 'religious totalitarians' being in power.

My greatest fear in terms of our Christian heritage, would be of Catholics having political power. Don't misread that as an 'anti-catholic' statement, it's more a descriptor of the nature of the RC church in terms of its 'hierarchical' organizational structure and historical attempts to 'run' the Emporer. In fact the Anglicans would be a close second there for historical reasons contra the Catholics.

ANY religious organization which saw itself as having any divine right to earthly rule is worrisome. The king/President/Prime Minister can be 'Christian' but that can never be seen to mean the country is.

The whole concept of 'King' is foreign to the Old Testament. The only reason Israel got one is "We want to be like the nations around us".
When God allowed them to have one He also promised "You will get the BAD with the good" and they surely did.

Once they got their King, God was always on their case through the prophets about Idolatry,injustice and immorality .

Rog.... the attitudes of Indonesians has little to do with the compatability of Islam with democracy mate. You have simply described a refreshingly un-Islamic society, where the real Muslims are not very large in numbers. The majority are simply nominal.. Islam is part of the cultural glue which holds them together.Scratch below the surface and you will find animism and spirit fear there.

We should not forget in all this debate (which is very easily sidetracked into academic woffle and pseudo spiritual speculation) that the concept of Government in Islam is that of a Caliph over the masses, who guides them in the implementation of Sharia law.

To try to re-invent Islam in any other way is to virtually create a new religion.

Sneekeepete,

Have I really run up 570 posts? I’m not that interested. Are you sure you don’t worry about me?

While you should certainly know what I think after all that verbiage, whether or not I am ‘ignorant’ is a very subjective call. I think I’m pretty smart. And of course, I’m manly and assertive; although I confess to liking the odd latte, which is not the done thing amongst us right-wingers, according to some. I go to the café of an international coffee and barista judge for it, and it’s good stuff.

What did you put in the coffee you served the silent majority before you asked them the question? I told them emphatically not to have anything to do with strange men. Two timing old tarts, the lot of them!