“The arrival of the 21st century has seen Muslims the world over grappling to determine their identities amid unique challenges brought by the waves of modernisation and globalisation.”

There does not seem to be much evidence to support that claim. Muslims are still in the 14th Century and do not appear to be ‘grappling’ with anything outside their own closed circle. Nor is it immediately apparent that Muslims have “richly diverse” customs and traditions.

Islam is anti-democratic. The only way that a Muslim can truly participate in democracy and political matters is to cease to be a Muslim – and face death for it.

Why they keep trying to tell us that they are just like the rest of us is a mystery

Quote from the first poster:

"Muslims are still in the 14th Century and do not appear to be ‘grappling’ with anything outside their own closed circle. Nor is it immediately apparent that Muslims have 'richly diverse' customs and traditions. Islam is anti-democratic. The only way that a Muslim can truly participate in democracy and political matters is to cease to be a Muslim – and face death for it. Why they keep trying to tell us that they are just like the rest of us is a mystery."

He who has his mind in the locked position is bound to be mystified - and is already facing intellectual death.

And you would be an authority on all things Islamic - their culture their customs and traditions - would you Leigh? -

knock up a couple of thousand words like Nayeefa and help us all to a higher level of understanding will ya please?

Did you read the article or did you just get to the few assertions made early in the piece and then climb aboard that high horse? - she makes actually makes some very telling points - particularly about the nexus between western policies and Islamic responses

Nayeefa,

Excellent daring article.

Leigh,

The Iraqi people showed the highest presence to voting polls (more than 70%) in circumstances when going to the polls meant the possibility of death. I can't think of anyone showing to the polls in a western country if there is a group threatening to blow up voting polls. Yet brave Iraqis showed up at voting boots (practising sunnis and shiites).

PS:(Google iraq's first democratic elections).
Even with your chronic anti-Muslim grudge, you should spare a moment to research your comments before a public display of ignorance.

Peace,

A commendable piece of academic literature that has very little to do with the realities of Islamic political culture.

Many in Iraq will argue that life was more bearable under Saddam’s tyrannic regime. Most will much rather accept abuse than modernity.

Global Islamisation under a common flag is Islam’s ultimate but unattainable mission. Islam historical “golden years” or centuries were under the ottoman / khalifate ruling.

True Islamic sentiments choke at the idea of any “foreign to islam” way of thinking. True Democracy is seen as a window to liberalism (from the clutches of the Imams).

I don’t see how the three “carefully picked” Countries as chosen by Nayeefa could represent a future model for Islamic democracy - short of revolutions or mass conversion out of Islam.

Turkey could be perhaps a better candidate closer to the democratic mark - but I guess being largely secularised makes it a bad model for Islam.

The un-islamic royal house of Seoud in Saudi Arabia has been for decades earmarked for extermination by neighbouring (and local) Muslem Militants and replaced by a marxist Islam (If it were not for the US-Seoudi alliance).

Iran can hardly be called democratic when any anti Islamic ideology is harshly obliterated – just ask any Iranian refugee.

Indonesia – out of control. Anarchy is perhaps the best description. Muslem clerics are in charge of the ignorant masses under a puppet government.

Muslems respond better to strong dictators. Islam will never become a respectful political identity because it was founded on a religion that cannot offer HOPE, let alone prosperity, unity, or equality.

After fourteen centuries, we are yet to find the perfect Islamic model. A kingdom divided will always collapse.

Sneekeepete,

Relax. Don’t worry about what I think. Concentrate on what you think.

Fellow Human,

I’m not the slightest bit interested in Muslims in Iraq or anywhere else but Australia. Inky thumbprints on ballot papers don’t seem to have made much difference in a country where Iraqis are killing Iraqis at a far greater pace than any “invaders” have ever killed them.

You will continue to make excuses for Islam, and I will continue to dislike Islam – not individual adherents of Islam whom I think have been brainwashed, just like some adherents of other religions. I might even like you, as a person, if I knew you. But, there is no public indication that you Muslims are prepared to do anything except take offence, react emotionally and play the victim routine every time there is a criticism of Islam. There is no point in reacting to what I say; it will not make any difference. Perhaps you would be happier if I didn’t say anything about Islam? That would probably make you feel better, but it would not change what I think, nor would it change what the ‘silent majority’ thinks of your religion and its presence in Australia. You will never be accepted on anything but a superficial, enforced politically correct level no matter how hard you try. Keep your religion personal and private, and live the life of a ‘fellow human’.

If you are happy to be confined within cruel, vicious and outmoded religious doctrine, that’s your business; but do not expect to have an easy time of it if you try to convince others that Islam is a good deal.

And, knock of the ‘ignorance’ bit. You have absolutely no idea what I know and don’t know. I’ve done my best to be polite to you, but there is a limit to my patience and, if you want to trade insults with me, I am more than a match for you

I am in a constant state of relaxation Leigh - and I never worry about you -

and let me add I love the bit about being patient and doing your best to b polite - and being more than a match for FH: so manly and assertive.

And you should really stop misrepresenting the views of the "silent majority" - they were speaking to me only the other day over coffee and cake - and they love Islam - they're not that silent at all.

And as for knowing what you do and do not know old chum - your 570 posts since August 2005 have given us a fair insight into what you do and dont know or think - any way he accused you of commiting a public display of ignorance - not of being ignorant in an absolute sense

even the great Sneekee has committed such displays

2night I was ATTACKED by a Muslim... he kicked me in the stomach.. quite hard....

:) Well.. it so happens that it was my new friend from Gym, and I asked him to try some front kicks so I could test out a couple of good aikido moves I watched Steven Segal do.... Not quite as easy in real life as in the movie I found.

Ok...enough attention getting trivia :)

TOPIC.
I struggled to fight my way through the article, which was long on words and short on punchy conclusion.
Nayeefa contrasts Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

Knowing a fair bit about Indonesia, I'd have to say its more of a cultural Islam than "Islamic". It would be interesting to know how may Indonesian "Muslims" pray 5 times a day. In Malaysia they sure don't because many are walking around the malls or on the bus or train at the prayer times. It simply doesn't work in a modern society.
But.. without question it is a central and compulsory part of Islam.

Saudi Arabia is much closer to how an Islamic state would end up, given enough time.

The true test of Islams ability to adapt to the world is found in its willingness to allow conversions from Islam to Christianity or other faiths.
I read some inCREDible reports from a Malay Muslim Imam that there are up to 70,000 Muslims in Malaysia seeking to have their religious adherance anulled. I didn't believe it at first but checking the sources, it turned out to be true (i.e. the report).

This would never be allowed in Saudi.

We must never forget that the goal of Islam is the rule of Sharia.
This rather limits the political possibilities, so I don't know why Nayeefa woffled on so long as if there are other modified goals.

Leigh,
You show distain for Islam, but preach kowtowing to the Government of Indonesia where nearly 90% of the Cabinet and of the people are Muslims.

Coach,
You said: "Indonesia – out of control. Anarchy is perhaps the best description. Muslem clerics are in charge of the ignorant masses under a puppet government."
You're even more ignorant than Leigh and you obviously haven't read the results of research on the attitudes Indonesian Muslims published in the "Jakarta Post" today. 82% said they support democracy and only 5% said they opposed it. Only 10% said they would vote for an Islamic party in the next election. Only 17% said they support Jemaa'h Islamiyah and just 10% said they support the Bali bombings.

Those who assert categorically that Islam and democracy are incompatible have to ask themselves why it is that Indonesia after the fall of Soeharto in 1998 didn't choose (a) another military dictatorship, or (b) a theocractic Islamic state. What system did they choose - democracy of course and no one forced them.

Religion is all about the power of mortal men and thus should be treated with the skepticism it deserves.

We constantly see articles from the two chief protagonists,ie Christians and Muslims but almost never do we see articles from Hindus,or Buddhists.

This constant banter with the toing and froing of images portraying oppressed victims,laced with veilled threats of violence,is just the softening up process that will eventually see the free people in our society relent,and slowly watch our democracy dissolve.

When the religious totalitarians get into power,no matter what the denomination,they can do anything in the name of their god.When the Catholic Church had total power it was ruthless and corrupt.I suspect the Islamic faith will be no different.

Arjay... I would be as opposed as you to 'religious totalitarians' being in power.

My greatest fear in terms of our Christian heritage, would be of Catholics having political power. Don't misread that as an 'anti-catholic' statement, it's more a descriptor of the nature of the RC church in terms of its 'hierarchical' organizational structure and historical attempts to 'run' the Emporer. In fact the Anglicans would be a close second there for historical reasons contra the Catholics.

ANY religious organization which saw itself as having any divine right to earthly rule is worrisome. The king/President/Prime Minister can be 'Christian' but that can never be seen to mean the country is.

The whole concept of 'King' is foreign to the Old Testament. The only reason Israel got one is "We want to be like the nations around us".
When God allowed them to have one He also promised "You will get the BAD with the good" and they surely did.

Once they got their King, God was always on their case through the prophets about Idolatry,injustice and immorality .

Rog.... the attitudes of Indonesians has little to do with the compatability of Islam with democracy mate. You have simply described a refreshingly un-Islamic society, where the real Muslims are not very large in numbers. The majority are simply nominal.. Islam is part of the cultural glue which holds them together.Scratch below the surface and you will find animism and spirit fear there.

We should not forget in all this debate (which is very easily sidetracked into academic woffle and pseudo spiritual speculation) that the concept of Government in Islam is that of a Caliph over the masses, who guides them in the implementation of Sharia law.

To try to re-invent Islam in any other way is to virtually create a new religion.

Sneekeepete,

Have I really run up 570 posts? I’m not that interested. Are you sure you don’t worry about me?

While you should certainly know what I think after all that verbiage, whether or not I am ‘ignorant’ is a very subjective call. I think I’m pretty smart. And of course, I’m manly and assertive; although I confess to liking the odd latte, which is not the done thing amongst us right-wingers, according to some. I go to the café of an international coffee and barista judge for it, and it’s good stuff.

What did you put in the coffee you served the silent majority before you asked them the question? I told them emphatically not to have anything to do with strange men. Two timing old tarts, the lot of them!

Leigh,

“there is no public indication that you Muslims are prepared to do anything except take offence and react emotionally”

I am not responsible for what the media brings on offshore reactions, I didn’t see these reactions in European Muslims, Australian Muslims or American Muslims. I thought you should focus on the actions from these Muslims rather than referring to media quotes of riots in Somalia and Pakistan. After all, referring to offshore reactions contradicts your “I don’t care about what happens outside Australia” comment.

And yes, I have no problems with you criticising bad Muslims just like anyone else does. I have no respect for Muslims who don’t obey the law or value the country we live in. I supported Boaz on many of his comments during the Cronulla riots.

I only engage when you try and link bad behaviour to the faith all other Muslims practice which I find super naïve and counter productive. If every offence committed by an individual will be linked back to their religion we will end up a ‘pointing fingers’ society living in the stone age.

PS: Ignorance of a topic is not a personal insult; you got ego problems to deal with. I don’t believe you represent the silent majority in Australia anyway.

Apologies if you were offended at the end of the blessed month.

Peace & regards,

ACCORDING TO THE MUSLIM POLITICAL CULTURE, I MUST DESCRIBE THAT THE MUSLIM POLITICAL CULTURE IS CONCERNED WITH THE ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE THAT HAS BEEN SENT BY THE ALMIGHTY LORD THE ONLY ONE THE REAL CREATOR ,AND GOVERNING AUTHORITY WHO HAS BEEN SENT THE CELESTIAL HOLY BOOKS BUT THE ULTIMATE ONE IS THE QURAN.

THE MUSLIM POLITICAL CULTURE FOLLOWS THE GOVERNMENT OR RULING SYSTEM THROUGH MORAL, ETHICAL AND PEACFUL WAY TO BENEFIT THE HUMANITY .

SYED ISHTYAQ UR RAHMAN ZULKHARNAIN.
FOUNDER/CREATIVE DIECTOR/WRITER FOR ZENITH PINNACLE

Why is it that western society must put a protective circle around Islam while it is open slather on other groups (christianity, judaism etc)?

A decade ago there was no problem with putting controversial things within newspapers. These days do it at the risk of your own life.

Just take what the islamic group Hizb'ut Tahrir (Australian Branch) said in response to the Pope, the article titled: "Would the Pope dare to attack Islam if the Islamic State (Khilafah Rashidah) had been Established?"

Is this Australian islamic group saying that the Pope was actually correct in what he said? Are they saying that if Islam was a dominant force in the world that the Pope would never have said it because of the fear that muslims would retaliate in a violent way?

Matt Marazios,

Pls take some time to read this:
http://www.juancole.com/2006/09/pope-gets-it-wrong-on-islam-pope.html

I was disappointed in reading this comments column. I'm not academic and had trouble following some of the"argument" in the post. But, no way given the expression demonstrated, did it need to deteriorate to the level of abuse both of good manners and education for people like me.
fluff

Indeed they are duplicitous old tarts - thats why I am very cautious about what ever the silent majority tells me - or is reported to have said

sirzulkharnain,

Your quote didn’t need to be in upper case to have a greater or truthful impact – it is against this forum’s rules to do so also.

You say:“According to the muslim political culture, I must describe that the muslim political culture is concerned with the islamic jurisprudence that has been sent by the almighty lord the only one the real creator, and governing authority who has been sent the celestial holy books but the ultimate one is the Qur’an.

The muslim political culture follows the government or ruling system through moral, ethical and peaceful way to benefit the humanity.”

I respept and admire your belief that the god you worship is the same God that Jews and Christians worship. If that were to be the case, how come your holy books drastically contradict the Jewish and Christian scriptures?

For example in the bible all people are born sinners in dire need of a Saviour. The Qur’an says all humans are born without sin and then Allah causes them to be good or bad.

The whole story of the bible revolves around the person of Jesus – He is God’s Son sent to save humanity (including Muslems).

The Qur’an revolves around the person the Mohammad (who is alien to the bible – never mentioned – not even a hint of him). We all know how colourful his life has been, again very different from any other real prophet sent by the real God as documented in the bible.

Not to mention Jesus death and resurrection that the Qur’an literally denies ever happened...

So my question to you is how could any reasonable intelligent human being going to believe anything your Qur’an says when it is fundamentally so different to the real thing: the bible?

You can have your god and your laws but please don’t offend the rest of the free world with your convictions, and don’t compare your religion to God’s historical covenants with His people the Jews…

Believe me if you can accept that - the world will be a peaceful place again...perhaps.

Coach,

“The Qur’an says all humans are born without sin and then Allah causes them to be good or bad”

FH: And so does the Torah, the ‘born sinners’ concept is alien to both Muslims and Jews.

”The Qur’an revolves around the person the Mohammad”

FH: This statement means you never actually read the Qu’ran. Mohamed (pbuh) is the least prophet mentioned in the Holy book ( 4 times only compared to Jesus pbuh mentioned 33 times). If Islam is what keeps you awake at night, at least read and understand what Muslims believe and practice.

“Jesus death and resurrection that the Qur’an literally denies ever happened”

FH: there are a number of death and resurrection stories of prophets in the Qu'ran (ie the Jewish Prophet Ozeir who was resurrected after a 100 years and the monks in the cave who were resurrected after 309 years).The Qu'ran simply states that we should look beyond the miracle and not to worship the subject of the miracle.

“how come your holy books drastically contradict the Jewish and Christian scriptures?”

FH: Actually the Quran is a confirmation of the Torah and the Bible. Trinity is non-biblical and if you read the bible carefully, Jesus talks and sees himself as a prophet and so does his own family. Why would the Virgin Mary have 4 natural born brothers for Jesus (pbuh) if she believed he was divine?

What was your question again about ‘intelligent thinking’ human being? Lol
All the best and wishing you be kinder to your fellow humans of all faith (including Muslims) by next Ramadan.

Peace,

The mere fact that Nayeefa Chowdhury felt bound to write such an article is surely proof of something is not right with the Islam-political mix. Islam presents itself as an archaic and barbaric religion that is increasingly out of touch with human evolution and the modern world. It is most definitely culturally incompatible with Australia. Not a single Islamic dominated population has ever produced a credible and just political framework. Perhaps it is time for Muslims to question the reliability of the origin and authority of their faith, rather than stubbornly adhering to it, to the detriment of world peace? On the other hand, in the long run, the rate Muslims breed the whole world will become Muslim anyway.

Robg - are you suggesting every mildly polemic piece written on - lets say liberal democracy - suggest there is a real problem with it? - as you do in reference to this article: she is simply informing the debate. Your assertion is empty and superflous to requirements

Then to go with the assertion that an Islamic dominated population has never developed a credible and just political framework - is breathtaking indeed - every thing the western world has done - was pre dated by Islamic achievement in the socio political arena even in some respects science - in their time they were just and as stable as anything else going around at the time - jesus wept! -

dont assume that the continuation of stable liberal democracies is assured - or that they are the best deal we can strike for ourselves

"Apostasy in Islam is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Is that true? How uncivilised.

FH,

Mohammad in Islam is the model human being on whom you base all your beliefs and practices. The Qur’an is supposed to be a recitation by Mohammad of Allah’s celestial and perfect (unchanged) book. Therefore all the deeds and words of Mohammad are the prime example on which a muslem bases his conduct and life.

Are you trying to tell us that Mohammad was sinless perhaps?

I don’t need to attempt answering your other assertions about Christianity or Judaism, for you it seems that the Qur’an is right therefore all others must be wrong. My position also - except for me the Qur’an as assembled and recited by a lunatic has very little credibility in the mind of intelligent human fellows – not at all the kind of books that will make us stay awake at night. LOL.

So what did you wish for last night when the doors and windows of heaven were open for all Muslems? Discernment should have been on the top of your list.

Coach,

“Mohammad in Islam is the model human being on whom you base all your beliefs and practices”

Wrong again. Islam is the message not the messenger. History shows neither prophet Mohamed (pbuh) nor his immediate followers (AbuBakr, Omar or Othman) wanted to collect or teach anything but the Qu’ran. The prophet wanted a grave without a sign. Hadith is a good added bonus but not compulsory to the faith although we can pick and replicate the manners of the great prophet Mohamed if we want to.

I understand your faith evolves around worshipping and replicating Jesus (pbuh) but that’ not our case.

I prayed for you to find $29.95 to buy “Islam for dummies” so you can understand a little more about your ‘obsession’ :-)

Infid,

The 5 major schools you are referring to re apostacy are 1,000 year old schools of thought.
If you research topics by a poster called “Dawood” on olo, you will find references and links to modernisation efforts in this area on the basis that it contradicts the Quran and further action by the prophet (he tolerated apostasy during his life).

Having said that, Muslims convert to other religions everyday including in Muslims countries. I believe the sentencing is carried out only in Saudi and Iran.

Peace,

Dear Infi,

Thank you for raising a very serious point.
The Muslims believe *only* the Qur’an to be the verbatim Word of God. It’s the Qur’an that is Infallible. The Qur’an, as a matter of fact, does not endorse legal sanctions against apostates. On the contrary, one of the last Qur’anic verses to be revealed was “Let there be no compulsion in matters of faith...” (2:256). The Shari’ah (i.e. Islamic Law) sanctioned policy on apostasy was determined by factors of Realpolitik. The nature and evolution of the Islamic Law deserve to be examined here. Shari’ah is not a single ‘law’ to be found in any book, rather it is a concept which has been manifested in a variety of different ways and contexts. The core elements of the Shari’ah Law during the early dynamic phase of Islam constituted an interlocking of the positive law (i.e. God’s Law) and natural law (i.e. the exercise of our inherent cognitive capacity, namely reasoning). For Sunnis, the authority of Shari’ah Law is drawn from four sources: the Qur’an (canonical text), sunnah (prophetic practice), qiyas (analogical reasoning) and ijma (consensus of the community). Triggered by a political context during the 10th century, the primary conflict between Mu’tazilite and Ash’arite schools of Islamic theology was concerning the dynamics of ‘reason’ and ‘revelation’. The more the Muslim community clashed with external enemies and faced internal civil strife, the more conservative and literalistic they became in their interpretations and applications of the sacred texts. A “theoretical impasse” developed over time as the scope of human reasoning in religious matters was narrowed down or deemed inappropriate, and the role of ijma (consensus of the community) in the formulation of the Islamic Law became, in practice, a monopoly of the religious scholars or ‘ulama.

A good discussion on the topic you have raised can be found in the book titled “Freedom of Religion, Apostasy and Islam”, authored by Abdullah & Hassan Saeed, published by Ashgate (2004). ISBN: 0754630838.

Hope it helps a little.

It is noteworthy, however, that in the past, religious “heretics” were commonly executed in the West.

Regards,

Nayeefa and FH,

>>The-Muslims-believe-*only*-the-Qur’an-to-be-the-verbatim-Word-of-God.<<

This I believe is the source of all your problems.

Let's examine that concept quickly. If that statement was right, how do you account for the many conflicting accounts and statements that had to be abroggated so not to cause embarassment to the the prophet who recited them?

The truth I debate is that Mohammad used his power of persuation to influence his followers - it seems up to this day.

The only way a true believer in the real God can fall for this farcical concoction of textual cocktail is to be brain dead or extremenly naive.

It appears to me that you are neither. So what is your excuse for following a set of rules and social conduct that has nothing to do with God's plan for humanity?

God has already dealt with the sin of the world by sending His one and only Son (NOT ISA SON OF MARY) to take a human form and die for you and me on a cross.

By doing He saved us from the judgement of the law that no one could obey (including you guys).

By eliminating that fact from his Qur'an, Mohammad has willingly manipulated historical facts (well known in his time as he had access to Christians and Jews who must have told him) to the advantage of his newlt created "cult".

Terrorism BTW will never fade away because it is fed by a relgious belief called Islam. You can try to sweep that deep into your praying mats - but it is the truth.

To modify, embelish, or even interpret the Qur'an in any shape, school, or culture, will still make it an alien document to the will of God - because it lacks the essential truths that describe the true love and grace of God.

I hope that this ramadan (a pagan tradition adopted by a pagan leader...urr prophet) will make you re-evaluate your blind faith and may God open your mind to the truth, His truth that will set you free from this miserable cult. Amen.

Islam is not a pagan religion coach - you are a bad man

Fasting was a pagan tradition in the time of Mohammad.

His dad was the keeper of the Kaaba - a pagan place full of idols.

Muslems still go to visit the pagan Kaaba to fulfil their Hajj rituals in the hope that Allah is going to bless them and forgive their sins.

Call me a bad man - that's fine - Jesus was called worse names than that - but He remains the only way for humans to be saved from hell.

God proved to human peaople that following laws and rituals can never lead to goodness. It is impossible to try to please God by being good, only redemption through His Son can maky you access Heaven.

God is perfect and He will not allow impurities in Heaven (unredeemed sinners).

Islam's idea of heaven is a paradise, a place of orgy and sinful pleasure. Like most other ideas in Islam it is alien to whatever God through his previous prophets have described and prescribed.

If you care to read the bible - instead of relying on what has been fed to you through centuries; if you can put fear and brain washing aside, you will realise like many thousands daily that Islam is wrong, although it has all the good intentions of being a good religion, it will never please God because Islam has not accepted His Son Jesus as the only way back to Himself.

Islam is no better than Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other ism. They all fail to connect to the real God who layed his life for them on the cross. this act of love and grace is called: "Subtitutional Atonment".

The tradition lamb that you make bleed at your festival has been relaced by Jesus who bled on the cross for all humanity. He has been made the ultimate sacrifice.

So no need for paganistic rituals - just accept God's gift to you.

And remember there is no compulsion in accepting the truth.

- Coach - Go to any dictionary - Pagan is defined as basically as any religion other then the three - Christian, Jew, or Muslim - you only use the word pagan and describe their practices as pagan as you have been swept up Islamophobia - it suits your prejudices - you follo the other sheep in stupid attempts to vilify others - you remain an bad manas I said earlier and a worse chrstiian if you harbour such evil beliefs - if I believed in hell I would recommend you go their.

as it is hell is on earth right now with a bunch of Islamophobes driving this wicked agenda

Oh Dear; Why should we put up with all the problems that have arrived
with the moslems.
Gang rapes, terrorism problems, incompatible religion based attitudes,
offensive women walking around in tents hiding their faces and making a song and dance about it.
I once met a moslem during a visit to the UK. We were stopping in one of those cheap hotels where guests sit in a common room.
He had a photograph of his family. He showed it to me, but covered the
part that had his wife on it. I found that offensive.
But it is more than that it is stupid.
What did he think I was going to do ?

If moslem men cannot control themselves, let them cover their women at
home but let them dress normally out in the street as it seems they
will be safer in non moslem areas.

Why should we put up with all this nonsense, we didn't ask for it.
Let them all go away and leave us in peace to have our normal
arguments.

Bazz - i think you may have put the cart before the horse here - if I recollect we had gang rapes prior to the arrival of Muslims - incompatible religion based problems are a two way street of intolerance - I have never had a muslim take offence at my religion - nor ask me to convert - or becuase of my catholic irish back ground condier me to be a card carryingf member of the IRA - terrorism is a furphy - and also pre dates post war Islamic immigration here - and slowly the scales are fallin from the eyes of those who do not believe that

What apart from the fact you dont seem to like is - is offensive with women walking around in tents? - is not women walking around beaches with bit of dental floss wedged up their arse offensive? it is all a bit irrelevant really - no muslim woman I know makes a song and dance about the wearing of the veil - they only protest when some one says it is an affront - or challenging or god forbid - un australian -

They will not go away - they do want to leave us in peace - we however seem not to be able to leave them alone - if they do go away I wll ask them back any way

Muslim will not go away - they are here to stay, multiply and eventually rule this country. Those who don't like it will have to go away or suffer the conseuences.

Sneekee - you obviously have no idea what Islamic values are. Gang rape, terror, women covered in tents, bearded men in long dresses, etc... is but the outward visible signs of an invasion of our country and values.

Islam has no intention to leave, or to change its ways to try to please the rest of the population. It is up to us to adapt to the changes they are slowly introducing and submit to their ways.

It's the law not to discriminate against ethnicity, but we don't have a law in place to protect us from being compromised by Islam. NO other ethnic group had at its core the intention for dominance of the existing culture like Islam has.

All Islamic states around the world were once non-Islamic. It's a matter of time for Australia to follow suit.

I find people who use ludicrous justifications for their bigotry stupid and offensive.

In claiming that the arrival of Muslims to Australia brought with them gang rapes, terrorism problems and incompatible religious attitudes as if these things were not part of our own society and history.

Gang rape has been practiced by soldiers of all armies as a 'right' following the 'murder' of their colleagues or 'offences' by the enemy 'inflicted' on them. History books reveal Persian (pre-muslim conversion), Roman, Viking, Spanish and US soldiers (in Vietnam and Iraq - no reason to assume any other war was different) all engaged in the practice. Can anyone prove some of our troops have not following times of extreme personal risk? Male gang dominance and disrespect of single women is not uniquely a modern or moslem practice - witness Jodie Foster's 1988 film 'The Accused' and countless other evidence.

Muslims and terrorism have mainly been associated together in Australia since 2001, thanks to a single day of disaster, 19 Saudi Muslim's with a grudge (all now dead), George W Bush (sadly still living) and American foreign policy being imported here. Prior to 2001 white Australians bombed a CHOGM meeting at The Hilton Hotel in Sydney in 1978. Members of the IRA killed two Australians (believing them to be British) in The Netherlands in 1990. There has never been a single act of muslim 'terrorism' (as we define it) in Australia. If, as some claim, Australia is now a 'target' for terrorist action then they must have a bloody lousy 'aim'.

As for incompatible religious attitudes - geez, where do i even start? With the Roman Catholics who imprisoned and tortured one of the world's greatest scientific and artistic talents, Leonardo Da Vinci, for the heresy of daring to claim that the Earth was not the centre of God's Universe and that we actually rotated about the Sun and not vice versa? Or who instigated the horrors of the Spanish Inquisitors? Or who violently clash with protestants in Ireland, both of who's followers have emigrated to Oz? Or the Anglicans .... cont.

... the Anglicans' whose Church Henry the VIII created so he could divorce one wife and marry five others and who can't even agree amongst themselves whether women should be priests in their own church? Or who's political adherents, even today, cannot successfully assimilate with native Australians and apologise for the errors of their precedents?

If you have to justify your bias at least do it in a logical fashion and not use cr@p argument.

Errr Drainedbrain it wasn't Leonardo, it was Galilao that had to recant.
He knew the joke was on the church anyway.

Look we all know of the crimes that been committed by the church and various armies over time,
but we seem to have a different scale to it all now. I know someone who is a guard at a state prison
and 40% of the inmates are Lebonese. Way above their prorata.
As far as I was concerned the shooting up of Lakemba police station
was the last straw.

We have more than enough of of our own criminals, we do not need the Lakemba scene any longer.
Every country where they have gone is having similar problems
as they just do not integrate.

There is no mystery about it, they do not believe in the separation of church and state.
If the state does not comply with their religion's rules then the state is wrong. It is just that simple.

BrainDrain,

Finger pointing is not going to change the historical facts of a religion that has based its core values on the example of a terrorist opportunist called Mohammad.

It may be time to plug that that drain and start inputting some truth into it. The world will be a better place when Muslems will start to use their brains and reason like other human beings.

Bazz - Thank you for correcting my error. It was Galileo Galilei, not Leonardo, that the Catholics forced to recant his heretical belief that the Earth rotated around the Sun, after years of banishment and prevention of him having contact with his daughter. I'm sure he laughed all the way to his deathbed knowing that the joke was indeed on the Catholic orthodoxy of what was 'officially' (ie. ordained by 'God') right and wrong for the people of his day.

As for your personal belief on Islam and it's proponents I am glad to see from your latest post that you can actually use statements appearing to contain a reasonable degree of accuracy to espouse it rather than the provably falacious ones you first offered as argument in the post I criticised.

Now if we could just get rid of Lebanese Muslims and those darned petrol-sniffing Abo's our jails would then be able to be filled with our own criminals rather than just letting them off with tiny little fines and putting them back out on the streets and forum sites because of overcrowding.

I suppose the dozen or so white Werribee students were just following Sharia Law when they raped and abused a 'spas' while videoing themselves doing it and selling the evidence for $5 a pop? Doesn't their behaviour indicate to you that anti-social behaviour in our current society has very little, if anything, to do with religious preference, but more with a lack of willingness to accept personal responsibility for our actions, as endorsed and reinforced by the examples of almost all political leaders in Western democracies such as ours.

Bush has proved that it is ok to hit someone just because you think they might be plotting to hit you. Pre-emptive strikes are now justifyable by democratic governments - why not then by disgruntled Muslims? Why not by neo-nazi bigots? Why not by you and me?

Bazz (cont.)...

If our elected leaders resort to smears to justify waging war on those unable to mount an appropriate level of defence against a superiorly armed group of aggressors, then citizens such as you and i can feel justified in using such unfounded or illogical smears to support our own feelings to attack others weaker than ourselves. That does not make it right or proper.

Btw - in my home here in the west it was a local mosque that was shot up while women and children prayed inside - not a police station. But you probably would blame an opposing faction of Islam for such a crime as no civilised 'christian ozzie' would ever perpetrate such atrocious acts of revenge - would they? Or is the act of building a church to pray to a pagan god a crime for which such behaviour is considered permissable - as long as it's by one of 'us'?

Coach - the world will actually only be a better place when more people, especially christians, start acting like Christ and not like the Pharisees and scribes he warned us all against following the 'leaven' of. That is to act according to the Love of a living God, who pours rain on both saint and sinner alike, and not according to man's interpretation of dead unchanging scripture.

Plugging a drain means that the container must quickly become full and unable to add or appreciate any new ideas or concepts that challenge us as we grow - it might be time you pulled the plug on your inability to see past your bible and belief that only those who agree with you possess the only way to God?

Fellow_Human

Thank you for the advice on the book Islam for Dummies. I shall certainly buy a copy and read it. Perhaps we should all do the same.
I bought and read the one on Judaism and that was excellent.

I think coach isn't the only one here who could benefit by reading both of the above books.

If you saw the recent series on SBS on the Secret Files of the Inquisition you can see how easily religions can be hijacked by those seeking unbridled power.

- I quote from coach "Sneekee - you obviously have no idea what Islamic values are. Gang rape, terror, women covered in tents, bearded men in long dresses, etc... is but the outward visible signs of an invasion of our country and values"

Actually, the more I read some of the anti Islamic crap from the likes of you coach I start to yearn for the day when we are over run.

I know as much about Islam as the next fellow - maybe more - more than enough to know that rape and terror are not intrinsic parts of Islam - it suits a lot of morons to think that though. So whenever I see it written I am compelled to call it what it is .... but if I did it would not be published - so sneekee bites his tongue here

On what basis do you or any one make the claim that terorrism and gang rape is a value of Islam? - charges like that are so absurd to not require rebuttal - and dont talk to me about the twin towers or Bali because I dont give a rats arse - worse things happen all the time and most of us dont care about them either.

Get a grip all of you!

Regarding the appalling gang crimes at Werribee, the callous violence and the crass trade in porn DVD, it's interesting how quiet some of our regulars are who are so quick to connect Islam with "gang rape, terror, women covered in tents, bearded men in long dresses, etc... the outward visible signs of an invasion of our country and values".

Once it was established that the gangs were predominatly of Anglo-Saxon origin why haven't I heard our regular moral coaches concluding that our Anglo-Saxon culture condones gang rape, terror, sexual depravity and other forms of cowardly violence?

Could it be that the Werribee louts are exhibiting the outward visible signs of an invasion our country and values by Ango-Christian fundamentalists?

Quote
Once it was established that the gangs were predominatly of Anglo-Saxon
origin why haven't I heard our regular moral coaches concluding that our
Anglo-Saxon culture condones gang rape, terror, sexual depravity and
other forms of cowardly violence?
Unquote

Answer is simple; it does not condone it !
They will get all they deserve.

Can the same be said for the hierarchy of the Lakemba mosque ?
I don't think so. They do not even suggest that the imman is being
suspended for a couple of months. The waffle given out by the spokesmen
is pathetic. The excuse is that he is ill.

I know it is rubbish and you know it is rubbish, he may be ill but
that is not what it is about.
Did you see his supporters ?
He claims he was misinterperted ! Really ?
What rubbish, even many of his congregation don't believe him.

What he said is highly dangerous, it can be used as justifcation by
young moslem men to justify rape. I am sure no one wants to see a
repeat of the two three previous moslem rape gangs.
No one else could get away with that
performance put on by the board members of the mosque.
If they don't remove him it is tantamount to supporting his statement.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck etc etc.

I must congratulate Bazz for improving the logicality of his argument from his initial rant on this thread - Well done!

I take issue with a minor flaw he used - Hilali used illness as an excuse. The 'illness' (which has all but disappeared now) was an all-to-obvious ploy to try and get sympathy or out of giving an interview. I felt neither worked. Also as the speech was given over a month ago the two factors could hardly be cojoined into an 'excuse'. I don't believe he personally made such a suggestion. Sorry Bazz, like i said - you are getting better - keep up the improvement!

As for FG's comment: he stated our A/S CULTURE could be concluded to condone these things in the same way you used a specific leb gang rape case to justify your argument against Islam and its followers' culture. (FG and i both know that is almost pure BS, not AS, but we were trying to get you to see why it is.

As for the 'ridiculousness' of FG's claim and your 'simple' statement. Consider how much our 'christian' (little c) culture endorses alcohol consumption and the inability of so many to control their less Christian (big C) tendencies while drunk. Then consider how prevalent sexual abberances are on the internet which our youth places such high value upon and how much money is being made from AS 'christian' cultures by porn merchants who willingly endorse gang rape, torture, S&M, paedophilia, etc.

Then consider how, over the last 50 years or so, our church leaders treated those within their ranks justifiably accused of paedophilia and see how easily Muslim's could mount an identical argument to your own against so called 'Christian' moral indecencies.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone Bazz. (and coach)
There is none so blind as he who WILL not see.

And just for the record, Hilali should be cast out by his own 'Church', (he is a hero amongst some of his mosque's believers) same as all those preists and bishops who failed to persecute peadophilia.