keith

"Now your latest post has just shown us that there is something else Israel has in common with North Korea."

Please explain. It is not self evident to me.

The whole history of the creation of Israel is far more complex and two sided than you see. The point is that there are second and third and more generation Jews in Israel. Some are from families who never left. (The Romans allowed some to remain). And the Israelis have an attachment to their land just as you and I and even Marilyn have to ours.

All of this ignores the essential question: why are civilised, first-world nations taking sides in a centuries-old grudge match between middle-eastern tribes?

It's ridiculous to argue that anyone in the middle-east is innocent, while their neighbours are guilty, and it's ridiculous to argue that they care about justice any more. They'll keep on fighting until the AK-47s run out of ammo, then they'll start stabbing each other with pointy sticks. It's what they do.

You'll notice that the US isn't supplying nukes and guided missiles to select West African militias. It won't until there's a wealthy, influential West African lobby bankrolling right-wing political parties there, at which point left-wing supporters will take up the cause of the impoverished militias. Everyone will take sides based on media coverage and political affiliation, regardless of who is killing and mutilating whom.

Let's sort out an alternative energy source to oil, go back to the cold war policies of containment in the middle-east, and let the savages fight it out for themselves.

I had expected more from this "forum"; instead we have the old propaganda merchant telling porkies with authority...and actually fooling "logic' it would appear. The very idea that "settlements" are not against the Geneva Comventions ! Of course, some will believe this because Ted Lapkin says it!
Then there's "Logic" who refuses to discuss why Israeli war crimes- 1 million cluster bombs in Lebanon just one of the many war crimes- interest him less than the few suicide fighters....BYW, when was the last one "Logic"? Why are these few incidents much more important to you than the myriad of horrendous crimes committed by Israel? Tell you what, forget it; you are unable to answer and Lapkin knows he cannot pull the wool over my eyes.

I would suggest you read Marilyn's post on the Dateline guestbook; she has more patience than me and I'm tired of repeating facts that you ignore.

Oh, BYW, did you read any of the Israeli academics' work? Did you look up the Gush Shalom web site? I know you have never been to the occupied territories of Palestine..but please try to read more. Oh, and Edward Said's "Orientalism" has added interest given the Israeli ambassador's racist outburst...no prizes for guessing where he learnt this racism.

SUNISLE - The question of whether Israel is guilty of "war crimes" should adjudicated on the basis of the contents of the international treaties that make up the law of armed conflict. I challenge you to cite me any of the primary source documents (Geneva Conventions, et al) that outlaw the use of ICMs, commonly known as cluster bombs.

Secondary sources from NGOs that tendentiously interpret the laws of war to advance their own political agendas (e.g. Amnesty and HRW) don't count.

You won't be able to come up with anything because ICMs are not prohibited under any of the conventions that govern the legal conduct of war. And the same holds true for other Israeli weapons and tactics.

And your concern about the effects of bombardment is a tad one sided. You seem to have no problem with Hezbulla's cross border raid that triggered this war. You appear to be blithley unconcerned about the 4,000 Hezbollah rockets that pounded northern Israel. I guess those 6 year-old Israelis cowering in Galilee bomb shelters for 34 days were nothing more than evil Zionists in minature who deserved everything they got, eh?

As for your favourite Israeli professors, not only do they come from the far left fringe of the Israeli political spectrum, but their scholarship is shoddy and marked by tendentiously selective citations and outright falsehoods. I would commend you to Efraim Karsh's "Fabricating Israeli History," where he rips to shreds the work of Benny Morris and Avi Schlam, et al.

Any claim Ilan Pappe had to serious scholarly standing was eviscerated when he endorsed the work of a leftist graduate student who fabricated tall tales of Israeli war crimes in 1948. The student was forced to recant his fabrications when challenged in open court. Yet Pappe continued to stand by his man despite all evidence to the contrary, flushing his credibility down the tubes.

sunisle

I will read your references if you will read ones by Brigitte Gabriel or other not Jewish writers who support Israel.

There have been a lot more than a few suicide bombers and they have killed a lot of people. And what about the nudreds of missiles fired at Israel. The fact that the numbers killed was fairly light is because of protective action taken by the Israelis such as provision of shelters. (Hezbollah attacked with hundreds of missiles and dug huge underground caverns for its rockets but nothing to protect the Lebanese citizens).

Trouble is that you confuse Hezbollah with the Lebanese people and ignore anything that comes from US or Israeli sources believing only what the dedicated anti Israel or extreme left wing sources tell you.

The problem I have with the left is that they sit at computers or desks and write and read usually with someone else buying their dinner. You notice the sufferings of the Palestinians but not the sufferings of the Israelis or the non-Muslims in Arab lands. Nor do you appreciate that a problem for the Palestinians is the dominance of hot heads who blow up their own factories and prevent the rest earning a living. It is these extermists who make them unpopular with the rest of the world and gain unfortunate hatred of others in Lebanon.

When the extremists let the rest live in peace everyone will be better. the same applies to the Basques and the IRA.

Oh boy, Ted Lapkin, you are good at your job; I'll give you that. The very idea that you could dismiss Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch so flippantly is a good display of bravado. I cannot imagine taking your word over these non-aligned bodies in a million years. Self-interest in not an attractive, nor trustworthy trait; altruism is.

And, I have no doubt that yuo know full well this invasion of Lebanon had been planned years before. Did you see the 4 Corners article in Alteroun? Over a million cluster bombs were left after the truce was signed; the fact that you seek to justify such a monstrous act is against all human decency.

I do not believe for a minute that my posts make an iota of difference to your mind set. I can only conclude that the indoctrination of anti-Falestinian racism helps blanket a person's mind when they know of the cruelty and suffering inflicted on these people, but don't want to stop it.

I am actually afraid of you, but we need to stand up to buliies and thugs, no matter how powerful. My mind is made somewhat easier in that there is a growing awareness of the pathology of Zionism. Last week was Palestinian awareness week at Sydney Uni. - I'm actually not sure of the exact name for it, but the reason is the same. No more propaganda to hide Israel's crimes behind.

When this tragedy -for all the protaganists- is over will you admit to taking the stand you have? ( I'm an optimist in that I hope we both live to see peace in the area). Like the old "white" South Africans will you admit to helping cover up the crimes against the "blacks"?