Interesting article. But I'd like to know where Hezbollah is getting all these weapons from?

Step forward Iran and Syria. Maybe convincing these nations not to arm their little proxy army in Lebanon would do the trick?

Any ideas on the best way of doing that (especially ones that don't involve shock and awe)?

gw

I guess we should ask them nicely.

Everyone seems to think that will work with Iran's imminent acquisition of nuclear weapons so why not anti-tank weapons.

If we ask really nicely they may even stop supplying them with money.

Then we can all be friends.

'The Russian Spandrel and Kornet missiles of Hezbollah...'

Seems to indicate the source of the weapons wasn't Iran or Syria. The money to purchase them came from those sources.

The Yanks can now thank the Israeli's mis-adventure in Lebanon for a probable increase in casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq. You thought that far ahead but didn't say it Ted.

Do you think the Yanks realise the nature of their self-interested friend?

The Israeli's lost not because of the superiority of a few anti- armour missiles but because of their intransiance and their limited perceptions of decency.

And still the attacks on Gaza continue, Hamas and Hezbollah still exist and still the Israeli 'excuses for war' are not released.

So the war on Lebanon changed absolutely noting of substance and the Israelis still occupy Palestinian lands and peace isn't in sight. When will these dills (Americans and Israelis) realise trying to solve the same problem with the same response, over and over, is madness.

Ted, hate to say it, but the shallowness and shortsightedness of your assessment just confirms that sentiment.

You'd have been much better off saying something like: If the enemies continue their assessments it is only because they are preparing for the next war.

Big Ted,

Good theory but as ever very thin on facts. There are claims that Hezbollah had RPG-29 Vampire grenade launchers and the Metis-M and Kornet-E anti-tank missile systems but despite the many displays of captured weapons none of these were shown.

American made TOW anti tank missiles were found yet you don't mention them.

Did you ever consider that the Merkava is a crap tank and Hezbollah shot at the weak points from short range with unanticipated consequences.

Once again you push Isreali propaganda on your Aussie readership. As I have said before never let the facts get in the way of propaganda.

You need to remember that the US needs a war somewhere in order to keep its economy from going down the gurgler. If they are not conducting one themselves, then who better to do it for them than the Israelis. George Bush's industrialist mates must be laughing all the way to the bank at the present as the war in Iraq proceeds and the Israelis restock their arsenal. If they pull out of Iraq, they will have to go to war somewhere else such as Iran or North Korea. Meanwhile, "The enemy" will have learned a few lessons from the Hezbollah and will no doubt be developing even more sophisticated anti-tank weapons and so it goes.

The Australian army will do well to stay out of any stoush that the stupid Yanks get involved in otherwise we will be going broke. Little Johnny H is going to get a hugh shock at the ballot box if he doesn't get that into his thick skull.

Steve:

They had a display of captured Hezbollah equipment at the conference I attended that included an AT0-4 Faggot, AT-5 Spandrel, and AT-14 Kornet. I also saw M-16A1s and RPG-7s with Iranian markings on them. But then, perhaps my eyes were deceiving me. There was no RPG-29 on display.

But then you'll undoubtedly argue that A) I'm a liar, or B) I'm a fool who was duped by cleverly constructed duplicates.

Steve, did you ever consider that your animus towards Israel is so profound that it blinds you to the undeniable?

Ted,

I think I praised your honesty in a previous topic, no I do not think you are a liar. In fact I respect the fact that you are willing to argue your point of view in a public forum.

A couple of questions if you care to answer:

Has Israel ever used models of these missiles in displays of captured weapons?

Did Israel find American missiles left over from the Iran Contra scandal?

Are the Russians wrong when they categorically deny the Israeli assertions that these weapons were used.

Is it totally implausable that intelligence agencies do not always tell the whole truth?

I have no animus toward Israel, but I remember that they also denied developing nuclear weapons.

Ted, maybe you have mates in the arms industry - I don't know. But what I do know is there will not be a military solution to terrorism.

The answer will be political. However, it won't come while we have fanatics in power in Tel Aviv and Washington who think the only solution to injustice is by the barrel of a gun, or while we have a powerful 'Israel First' lobby that is willing to put Australia's interests behind Israel's.

Why don't you write an article about how Australia can keep itself out of conflict and help solve terrorism rather encouraging more expensive weapons to engage in more conflict.

If you want killing, you can always return to Israel: they're pretty good at it there.

Ted why will Israel not join the NNPT?

Here's big warmonger Ted back, one of the creators of Hezbollah during the invasion and massacres of over 20 years of occupation of Lebanon. Did you help the phalangist's murder the Palestinian refugees Teddy, or did you watch or am I maligning you and you are a peace lover?

Reading the words of Haaretz, Shlomo - Ben-Ami, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Uri Avnery, Norman Finkelstein and Tanya Reinhardt it is not too hard to unpack your humbug.

1. MI report they knew Hezbollah would take soldiers and "didn't act in time to stop it". - Ze'ev Schiff September 18.
2. Ganz, February 2005 - We will bomb Lebanon back 20 years.
3. hezbollah monitored our cell phones to track troop movements then fired their rockets at places they knew IDF senior personell would visit - that old lefty pinko Ze'ev again.
4. The IDF took over arab Israeli towns to fire their barrages from.
5. We here in Ozland have seen the demolition of Aitaroun with out own eyes, unlike those in Israel.
6. There has just been launched a court case to stop the IDF arbitrarily blocking off the roads to Palestinians.

Above all else Teddy boy. When an IDF commander is so sickened by the behaviour of his own troops that he blows the whistle about "what we did was insane and monstrous, we flooded all of south Lebanon with 1.2 million cluster bombs and most of them after the ceasefire had been agreed".

Ted when you want to bleat at us, please remember we are literate here in Australia and we can also read the many voices around the world who say to you - humbug.

Steve:

The missiles were the real McCoy, right down to the Cyrillic lot numbers stenciled on the canister. I even had a look through the sight of the Kornet launch unit. The Iranian M-16s were old A1 models that had been supplied by the US during the Shah's regime (I assume). The exhibit also featured a bunch of Chinese AKs, the odd Czech Skorpion, and a Russian SVD sniper rifle.

Yes there was a TOW missile there as well, although there was some speculation among the IDF types as to whether it was Iranian (which means Israeli via the 1980s arms for hostages deal) or from Lebanese army stocks.

Yes the Russians are lying if they say there were no Russkie ATGMs used by Hezbollah. Once again, I saw examples of them close up.

eet - It is lunacy to think that our jihadi enemies will simply go away if we do nothing. Australia first appeared on the al-Qaeda hit list long before Afghanistan or Iraq. The reason? We pissed off Bin Laden because we liberated E. Timor from Islamic (Indonesian) rule. This appeasement theory that the jihadis don't like us because we are not nice enough to them is dangerous nonsense.

And Marilyn, the only one whom you malign is yourself, by virtue of your semi-coherent, hysterical blatherings. On the rare occasion when you manage to get the odd letter up in a newspaper, you never fail to generate a giggle. You are such a stereotype that it's as if you came direct from central casting - aging ex-60s radical who never outgrew her Vietnam protest days. Enmeshed in a time warp that makes her view the world through the 'movement' prism of the 'New' Left (although it's getting pretty long in tooth by this stage).

It's 2006, not 1996. Ho Chi Minh is dead, communism in Vietnam was a disaster (the most murderous ideology in human history with well over 50 million bodies world-wide to its discredit)

I'd like to say 'get with the times, Marilyn,' but I know a lost cause when I see one

A mere $50 million you say, in order to protect Australian troops against the advanced weaponry of Hezbollah?

Ted, your article is quite insulting to me on so many levels, mostly your complete ignorance to the physical and civic devastation that Israel has committed in Lebanon.

I cannot begin to fathom what it would be like living in Israel, neighbors that hate, rather despise your very existence? Living in a constant state of fear, constantly afraid of random terrorist acts? Entering a war in the name of 'self defense', to protect your borders, your way of life from those who want nothing more than to see you perish...

Might be a bit like living in Lebanon recently?

There are major differences of course, too namely to state here. Although for mere respect to the dead, one cannot go past the number of civilian casualties caused in Israel's latest attempt at self-righteousness.

The bombing of Lebanon was on the Israeli agenda long before the summer of 2006. Much like the hand that feeds them, Israel justifies their military action as being a ‘counter attack’ on the violence and persecution of ‘Others’.

Yes, let's spend $50 million on buying more bombs and tanks.

There is a peculiar obtuseness about Ted Lapkin, former Israeli soldier and intelligence officer who is now a a resident analyst at the Australia Israel Jewish Affairs Council. He rabbits on about military hardware technicalities but doesn't seem to see how flawed his political context is. e.g., Just because Israel is at war witb Hezbollah doesn't mean that Australia is. Just because Israel conducted a grossly disproportionate and destructive attack on the people of Lebanon doesn't mean Australia should be mired in that shameful act. Just because Australia is at war (some would argue, unwisely) in Afghanistan alongside NATO forces doesn't mean Australia has to identify with Israel's present militarism.

Ted, get real - most Australians now are right out of sympathy with Israel: and your bland assumption that we are Israel's close ally and strategic partner is simply not realistic any more in terms of ordinary Australians' thinking (whatever John Howard may think on this). That plucky little Israel we used to admire and feel anxiety for has grown into a militarist monster, and until Israel steps back from its present policies and actions it will receive less and less sympathy from Australians.

Meanwhile please don't egg Australians into an arms race we don't need with countries and people who are not our enemies.

Ted. Having read your piece, can I ask? Have you always played soldiers. You are in Australia, not the USA, with all guns firing.A place where kids can't even go to school in safety, unless they are wearing a bullet proof vest!

Yeah right Ted. Do you know what - I was a campaigner against the Vietnam invasion and destruction and I was right. I campaigned against the Franklin dam and was right again, then it was against the use of CFC's in spray cans and I was right again.

I said before we blew up Afghanistan that it would be a catastrophe with no decent result for anyone and I was right, then I said Iraq would be worse and I was right. I said that the Australian government and many departments knew about the sinking of the boat called SIEVX and was right.

The thing is Ted, I have lived here all my life and been reading history all my life. Now any nation that legalises kidnapping - 1997, torture - 1977, house demolitions - all along, refuses to listen to the International court of justice about borders and denies the very existence of the people of Palestine and then pretend to be peace mongers while waging war on anyone they don't like have lost all their credibility.

If you want to fight wars please go back to Israel to live, which is what you would willingly tell any muslim person to do.

It is interesting that Mark Regev, spin meister and liar is from Australia, Guy Spigleman bomber is from Australia, Martin Indyk, war monger is from Australia and 100 volunteers in the IDF are from Australia while Australia believes it was the muslims of south Lebanon who were violent - Australian Lebanese that is.

The reality is of course that the Lebanese Australian's were trying to get away from the bombs being dropped with gay abandon by Jewish Australians - not one of the Lebanese Australian's got involved in any violence at all.

Now it seems that you should read Haaretz a bit more often - as Tony Kevin says the world has moved on from the lunatic vision of Leon Uris and can now see that most Israeli's have become captive to the IDF who make all the decisions and are out of control.

Speaking of unregenerate former 60s lefties who never evolved beyond barracking for Ho Chi Minh – hullo Tony Kevin! Your comment brings to mind that old quip by Leon Trotsky: “you may not be interested in the dialectic, but the dialectic is interested in you.” Substitute jihad for dialectic and you get my drift.

Regardless of your ostrich-like proclivities, the jihadists are your enemies, like it or not. Australia first appeared on bin Laden’s target list long before Iraq, Afghanistan or even 9/11. He took umbrage at our military campaign in E. Timor to liberate that country from that part of ‘Dahr al Islam’ known as Indonesia. If you think that the conflict with jihadist Islam can be resolved through negotiations and a big group hug, you are delusional.

I am also amused by your ever so typical use of the royal “we,” as if you represented anything other than a marginal sliver of opinion on the far left of the spectrum. I have news for you, Tony. The left-of-centre Canberra bubble in which you exist is not representative of mainstream Australian public opinion. John Howard has won 4 election victories and is on course for a 5th. The Greens – with whom you are doubtless identify politically - remain firmly mired in single digit territory. They can’t win a single House of Reps seat in a general election, and it’s only due to the peculiarities of proportional representation that they have any presence in the Senate at all.

And yet you pontificate sententiously about “we” this, and “we” that, as though your views were reflective of something other than a mniscule fringe.

Jules – quite frankly, I don’t care a whit whether you find my views offensive. Yet I can agree with you one point – your self-professed inability to “fathom.” Your fundamental lack of comprehension is quite extensive.

Of course Israel had contingency plans to deal with the possibility of a Hezbollah cross-border attack. In light of Hezbollah’s nasty track record of launching assaults into Israeli territory every few months, they were entirely justified in doing so

Maralyn

You really do use part truths and selective facts to make your points. I suppose you also support Helen Caldicott's views on nuclear energy, well if so you are wrong there as is Helen.

"The thing is Ted, I have lived here all my life and been reading history all my life. Now any nation that legalises kidnapping - 1997, torture - 1977, house demolitions - all along, refuses to listen to the International court of justice about borders and denies the very existence of the people of Palestine and then pretend to be peace mongers while waging war on anyone they don't like have lost all their credibility."

What do you say about Iran which sent children as human mine detectors in the war against Iraq and according to Amnesty kills women adulterers by stoning? And the Taliban who shot women dead in front of crowds at a football ground for adultery and when the videos were shown to officials they replied, "the killings give the people pleasure". - ABC TV program. Do they have credibiliy or are you selectively saying that is OK?

And why do you not criticise the Palestinians who would not accept the original UN resolution allowing the Jews part of Palestine? You are keen on Israel obeying international law but quiet about the Arab world doing the same. What right had Egypt to attack Israel? The same Egypt which denied its Jewish citizens the right to a passport.

And why do you ignore Saddams killings and torture and his hounding of the ancient Jewish community until they left for Israel? And do you give the Phalanges no credit for deciding themselves what they wanted.

Ted

I'm not from any lunatic fringe. I supported our involvement in Vietnam, I supported our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq. I vote for John Howard.
I don't support Israel any longer. The Palestinians in the face of Israeli arrogrance have shown great fortitude. Israeli behaviour is fundamentally flawed as is the type of reasoning you use to justify the attack , not on Hezbollah, but on Lebanon.

I think Marilyn is very accurate with her assessments on Israel.

One question.

Who really wants peace in the mid East? Israel?

Then why, since it's whipping in Lebanon, has the Israeli Government 'auctioned' further Palestinian land in the Palestinian West Bank?

I think I'll get a nil response to those questions. Don't bother bringing on the usual Israel propaganda about the Arab threats. That's just nonsense. And I just no longer accept or listen to them. I have heard and seen enough.

Keith Kennelly

ps I don't think my view is that of any fringe...any longer. There are many Lebanese Australians in our neighbourhood and I feel great sympathy for them and their homeland. I think we (That's not the royal we either) fair dinkum Aussies all do.

Ted,. just to clear up two factual points first. As you would know from reading my website www.tonykevin.com and my contributions to OLO including the recent essay “Australia is still evolving”, http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4859 , I was an Australian diplomat and ambassador until I retired with honour from that 30-year public service career in 1998. I didn’t have the time ever to be an “unregenerate former 60s lefty”, but hey, let’s not let simple research into public-record facts get in the way of a glib putdown in the inimitable Ted Lapkin style. As readers of my political writing know, I was radicalised after 2000 by the serious and chronic failures of accountability and integrity of the Howard regime. This has nothing to do with Left or Right politics – it is about this man’s absence of decency or truth or compassion in his long march through those old Australian values.

Now as to your and John Howard’s tired fiction that “the jihadists” were targeting Australia long before Howard took us into war in Iraq and Afghanistan, I see no significance in the reference you cite that Bin Laden “took umbrage at “our” (sic) military campaign in E. Timor to liberate that country from that part of ‘Dahr al Islam’ known as Indonesia”. While there may be some obscure text before October 2002 on those lines, Australia was not on any “jihadist” real-politics radar screen until John Howard put us there with his manic desire to be noticed around the world as George Bush’s most loyal and energetic military ally. I remember well on ABC television news the Taliban Foreign Minister being interviewed in Pakistan around the time the US forces were toppling his regime in late 2001. Asked by an Australian journalist if the Taliban was angry with Australia he didn’t know where or what Australia was, and had to be prompted twice to answer the question. Eventually he mumbled something lamely on the lines of “yes, I suppose we are angry with Australia too.” ( part 1 of 2)

(part 2 of 2)
At the time of the first Bali bombing (October 2002), it was already public knowledge that the Australian Government was loudly supporting the proposed invasion of Iraq – Downer gave a saber-rattling speech in Washington in July 2002 - and was taking part in detailed US military contingency planning for it. If one is looking for a genesis for “jihadist” hostility to Australia, one can find it around those public facts.

Finally, Ted, you are trying as ever to line up Australia alongside George Bush and the Tel Aviv hawks in a so-called “clash of civilizations” war scenario between good “Judeao-Christians” and bad “Islamists”. I won’t be sucked into such crude war games. I have a more real model of the world which starts with a notion of common humanity that transcends differences of faith or culture. The rational as well as morally right Australian policy is to stand back from the Israel--Palestinian Middle East mess, to get our soldiers out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and to support European efforts to bring about negotiated peace of the many conflicts in the region which US and Israeli policies are knowingly exacerbating.

You are actually quite a dangerous person, Ted, the way you insert yourself chameleon-like into Australian politics with apparent knowledgeability and authenticity. You show an ability to slide from one role to another at the blink of an eye: Israel Government spokesman, Australian NGO community activist, international foreign relations analyst, strategic analyst, arms salesman, character assassin - A man who can so expertly play so many roles at once must have an agenda. I think your cover is pretty much blown in Australia now: maybe it is time for a new country and a new role ?

Kalin,
I love your comment-great insight
"Guess we should ask them nicely...Then we can all be friends"
Encapsulates the thinking of all too many.

Tony Kevin,
Actually you are the dangerous one –you have this naive view that we are all going to live together in peace & harmony –if we only close our eyes.

What we are seeing from al qaeda & its ilk is nothing new.
Its been the practice of Islamicists for generations –as any minority groups living in Sudan, Egypt ,Pakistan ,Indonesia would testify .It's only now that some westerners are being exposed to it, that its become newsworthy-but clearly, some have still not cotton-on to its real causes/motivations.

Strewth,
What a topic like this & no Strewth buzzing around like a blowfly- Unheard of !
Must be off serving on the frontline with Hamas.

Ok Israeli forces have withdrawn from Lebanon (except a token force in some border village) .Now when does Hezbollah Start to disarm?

You claim to have never participated in the anti-Vietnam war movement. Perhaps the far-leftwing nature of your current views (anti-American, anti-Israel, anti-free market), combined with your age caused me to make an erroneous assumption about your activities during the wild and woolly 1960s. Fine, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

But in a way, that makes matters even worse. It’s not that you, like so many of your current political compatriots, have remained stagnant within the confines of the most pernicious ideology ever known to man. But if your narrative is true, you have actually regressed, and have slid back from the realm of political light into the domain of leftist darkness.

You chastise me for failing to take your professions of early political moderation at face value. But it turns out relying upon what you have written is rather problematic in view of the contradictions and divergent narratives that you present at different times.

In your OLO posting above, you claim to have been “radicalised after 2000 by the serious and chronic failures of accountability and integrity of the Howard regime.” But your own paper trail tells a different story.

In an essay for the left-wing Catholic magazine “Eureka Street” (October 2003), you claim that your personal political revolution took place during the mid-1990s. Your change of view was motivated by a belated recognition of Australia’s complicity in: “a cynical Cold War endgame that inflicted a cruel 13-year insurgent war (1979-1991) on the Cambodian people.”

You declared, “It became supremely important to me after July 1997 to tell the world what I thought was the truth about Cambodia.” Thus by your own account, your political metamorphosis began much earlier than you profess above.

And, timetable aside, you present two competing versions of what that metamorphosis entails. In your OLO posting you admit to having become “radicalised, but in “Eureka Street” you assert: “I don’t think I became especially radical.”

So which is it, 2000, or 1997? The transgressions of John Howard, or the misdeeds of Fraser/Hawke in Cambodia? Radical, or non-radical?

(To be continued)

tony kevin
There are some bad Islamists. Stoning, suicide bombing of inocent people enjoying themselves in night clubs because the bombers and their supporters don't approve of their lifestyle. Killing of non involved people in trains and buildings because you don't like their culture.
Indoctrinating teenagers into a belief which encourages suicide bombing - this is the ultimate obscenity.

The Indian and Chinese villagers have more to complain about than any of the Muslims. Do the Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists follow these very sick practices? After the Bali bombing a JI cleric showed no sympathy and suggested that the families of the victims adopt Islam.

I am sure that the majority of Muslims don't follow these hideous beliefs but neither did the majority of Germans believe in the Nazis. But these beliefs are a horror and they are not only directed against the West. Look at Darfur, the Pakistani invasion of Bangla Desh the Iran Iraqi wars. And who is being killed by Muslims in Iraq? The majority are other Muslims. Why are the two sides in Gaza fighting each other instead of concentrating their energies against Israel? And why were suicide bombers active in Egypt?

Do you really think that they will leave us alone if we ignore them?

There is some sort of problem here and to close our eyes to the reality is to invite disaster.

Hourus

1)They won. They don't have to disarm.
2)When the israelis also disarm.

doh!

Hi Ted

No way you can attack me is there?
No way you can answer my questions is there?

You know I've only seen you attack your opponents, and not their arguments. You cannot attack me personally so you ignore my arguments and questions.

Mate what you should be worrying about is people like me who do express points of view different from our government and attempt through moderation and friendliness to change their point of view. That's where Israel and you propagandists lost and are losing. You are all to busy fighting wars and battles to see that the mood is not set by extreme points of view but by moderates who ignore propaganda. People like me. And we don't view or do things like extremists or they way you propagandists expect.

There is only one way to deal with us. That is by looking at reality, facing your shortcomings and adjusting your ways so that are some way in alignment with the way we do things.

And that doesn't allow for land stealing or unjustified oppression.

There is nothing positive that any country can learn from Israel. Committing war crimes and human rights abuses are not to be aspired to. Israel has set it's own path of destruction by ignoring human rights groups and international law. The world saw first hand just what kind of a country Israel is this time. The Zionist propaganda machine was in overdrive to try and justify the atrocities committed by this rogue nation.

Each generation of this artificially created state for one relgious sect only becomes more souless and cruel. The very idea that any country could learn anything worthwhile from the young thugs of the IOF is absurd.

Ted

Its quite appropriate you point to increasing dangers (such as antitank missiles) for Australians operating in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Increased deployments in dangerous areas of Iraq and Afghanistan are going to mean Australian combat DEATHS. We have had contractor, training and self-inflicted deaths. Combat deaths will tragically highlight the cost of the war for Australia.

I understand that body bags are being acquired by Australia for these deployments in numbers above standard levels.

Its notable that Canada, which made the right decision not to go to Iraq, is seeing its soldiers regularly killed in Afghanistan.

While the armour upgrade sounds relatively low cost you also point to antitank missiles being used against infantry. Thats a problem not as easily fixed for Australia infantry or civil aid troops.

Higher Australian casualties will make Australia's commitment to Iraq and Afghanistan a bigger issue. This may well in turn increase the likelihood of homegrown terrorism in Australia. Commissioner Mick Keelty accurately made the deployment-homegrown terror connection some time ago.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

The lesson we should have learned was from Vietnam: don't get sucked into these wars in the first place.

Not to worry, Mr Howard is presently re-writing the history of vietnam and in the future another like him will be sending our kids into yet another war, while re-writing the Iraq war.

Ted,

The argument that says Jihadists were already targeting us before Iraq simply doesn't hold up. Just because they hate us doesn't mean we need to exacerbate the problem by supporting US/Israeli lunacy in Mid East policy.

We're not too popular with Iran either, so should we attack them and have another Mid East state descend into anarchy and civil war? Could we justify 100 deaths a day in Iran just because they were already targeting us?

We're not as hysterical as Israelis are - we don't believe in putting fuel on the fire in the hope that it will burn out quicker. We have boundries. We won't do whatever it takes. And, thank God, we value all human life.

We have nothing positive to learn from Israel.

Keith,
Hezbullah won, only in their minds & those of their airhead fellow-travellors in the west(assuming they have "minds" ).

If you are really turned on (or off ) by "land stealing or unjustified oppression".I am sure you wont just stop, or start with Israel .What are your views on the Arabs stealing land from the Kurds,Turkmen or Assyrians(started before Israel was founded & is still going on today)
Or oppressing the Christian, Bahai or Zoroastrian minorities (ditto ).

Or is you high principaled stance just a cover for a baser anti-Israeli malady?

My posting that immediately preceded this one was, of course, directed towards TONY KEVIN.

TONY - you dismiss my contention that al-Qaeda declared war on Australia well before the invasion of Iraq. But on a video that surfaced in November 2001, bin Laden cited the following rationale for his hostility: "The crusader Australian forces were on Indonesian shores ... and they landed on East Timor which is part of the Islamic world." (AFP 26 Oct 2002)

Former CIA terrorism analyst Michael Scheur (no friend of the Bush administration) made the same point on Lateline: “In the Muslim mind in the Islamic mind, the Americans and the Australians in the UN ripped a part of an Islamic country away from its owner, if you will. East Timor was part, in Islamic view, of the Islamic nation of Indonesia and certainly it's viewed as an aggression against Islam”.

And TONY, as to your suggestion that I leave the country, thanks but no thanks. I rather like Australia, and I am looking forward to the Ashes where we can kick some Pommy butt and put that trophy back where it belongs, in Aussie hands. So you’ll just have to get used to me.

EET – In re your refusal to accept that Australia was a jihadist target prior to the Iraq war, see above. And you should also recall that the first Bali bombing took place in October 2002, 6 months before the conflict. Your chronology is a bit out of whack.

KEITH - you assert that you will dismiss, out of hand, any response I might make (“I just no longer accept or even listen to them”). So why should I bother even trying to engage you in discourse?

SUNISLE – I assume your statement about the world seeing Israel’s character first hand is a reference to the recent conflict in Lebanon. It seems you forget that the fighting was triggered by a Hezbollah raid into Israeli territory across a clearly delineated, internationally recognised, border. But then I guess you think that Jews don’t have the right to self-defence, huh?

Ah Ted Lapkin, the ubiquitous Israeli Minister for propaganda, the old, "Jews right of self defence".!

Let's get it straight, Israelis' religion in not the issue; their actions are; they could be Hindu, Catholic, African, blue, green, from the moon; it is their ACTIONS that are the issue.

Jews are not under attack; Palestinians and Lebanese- of all religions- are. The old refrain won't wash anymore. So, Jews...smoosh...get over it! The issue is one of colonisation, land grab and ignoring international law. Now, I'm sure you'd love to go back to the "good old days" of hiding behind your religion to justify atrocities...too late, the cat is well and truly out of the bag.

And previously to this, I hadn't realised that Hizbolla were actaully Lebanese people fighting Israeli attackers. This latest Israeli aggression has made me read more and learn more about them....and realise that the superfical tripe I'd just glanced over about them here was not true.

I did, however, know what Israel is doing in the Palestinian Territories; it is appallling that there are so many people lacking a conscience here by putting their self -interest before just plain human decency. Why do you think it is acceptable to take more of the little land that is left for the millions of indigenous people of Palestine?

What are your views on the international criminals, euphemistically known as "settlers"? What are your views on the Geneva Conventions? What are your views on dropping one tonne bombs onto heavily populated apartment blocks? What are your views on an occupying military that kills children with impunity? There are too many human issues that you studiously ignore

What concerns me most about Lapkin urging arms procurements etc on Australia is the hidden assumption that our army is going to continue to fight Israel's battles in the Middle East. The trouble is that the Zionist lobby is so rich and influential that Australian politicians fall over themselves to be of service. If only the Arab/Palestinian section of our population could develop a lobby as sophisticated and confident, we might achieve some balance. And this will happen one day.

Hourus

For you to suggest as you have is merely a personal attack and typical of the foolish. Why don't you prove you are not a fool and debate my points.

Oh so I'm wrong to object to Israeli land stealing and oppression because in a post criticising Israeli land-stealing and related actions in occupied Palestinian territory, I haven't mentioned land stealing and oppression by other groups in other lands.

That's an illogical argument. It's an absolutely silly suggestion which is not substantive and provides ample evidence to show you are not something more than the 'airheads' you condemn. :-)

And as for suggesting I suffer an anti semetic malaise. Well that's just evidence you are often prone to manipulating your genitalia in the manner widely undertaken in adolescence.

Ted

Wow! You did find a way to personally attack me!

Obviously doing that now causes the question to rise: Why did you do that rather than answer my legimate qeries? :-)

You should brush up on your comprehension skills. I was quite specific and it was quite clear in my post that I would not accept any propaganda in relation to 'the Arab threats' ... other responses are welcome, that is if you really want to engage in a fair dinkum discourse...Ted.

Just so you don't have to go searching here's what I said.
"Who really wants peace in the mid East? Israel? Then why, since it's whipping in Lebanon, has the Israeli Government 'auctioned' further Palestinian land in the Palestinian West Bank? I think I'll get a nil response to those questions. Don't bother bringing on the usual Israel propaganda about the Arab threats. That's just nonsense. And I just no longer accept or listen to them. I have heard and seen enough."

Now let's carry on a fair dinkum discourse in relation to my query about land stealing and the Israeli Government auctions of Palestinian land...without any reference to threats from Arabs.

Ted - Marilyn may fit a certain stereotype, indeed, she does fit it rather well.

But that being said, you also appear to fit a stereotype quite nicely. The ex-military commander, vehement in his defence of Israeli actions, which in your view (and correct me if I'm wrong) are almost always justified regardless of their intensity.
Indeed, watching you two argue is somewhat predictable, as the rhetoric, if not the precise wording, can be quite easily extrapolated from both your backgrounds, be they merely perceived or otherwise. To criticise one for their adherence to a stereotype isn't particularly constructive, and it tends to drag the discussion off topic.

Whilst I'm always interested in commenting on the broad issues here: whether increased military expenditure is Australia's top priority, and whether or not current Australian military operations are really relevant to Australian defence, I can only profess my ignorance of the nuts and bolts characteristics of military ordinance. On that score, I'm quite happy to defer to Mr Lapkin's judgement, and I'd put it to other posters, how many of you actually have military experience in these matters, aside from reading an article or two?

KEITH – Let’s consult the primary sources to see whether Islamic threats are, as you claim, mere “propaganda” (source MEMRI):

"The Islamic world, and the Muslim youth in all the Islamic countries know that there is no way to confront the barbaric Zionist wolves and the aggression of the 'Great Satan' [America] except through martyrdom.
(Iran's Supreme Leader Khamenei, 6 August 2006)

"We will not give up the resistance in the sense of jihad, martyrdom-seeking, sacrifices, arrests, the demolition of homes, and the uprooting of trees, at the same time, nor the shattering of the Israeli enemy's honor in all the confrontations - the war of tunnels and of security against the Israeli enemy, which ultimately led to its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the West Bank. Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah [meaning all of Israel]. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy's right to a single inch.”
(Hamas leader – and current Palestinian Foreign Minister - Mahmoud al-Zahar, 1 February 2006)

"I hope that our courageous and great nation will succeed one day in taking revenge against Israel and America, avenging the blood of the oppressed Muslims and the martyrs. In light of the Zionists' crimes and oppression, I ask God to hasten the years when this regime will no longer exist... The Zionists are hastening their own death through their foul deeds, since Hizbullah and the Lebanese people are undefeated. There is a need to topple the phony Zionist regime, this cancerous growth Israel, which was founded in order to plunder the Muslims' resources and wealth."
(Iranian Revolutionary Guards Commander Yahya Raheem Safavi, 30 July 2006)

As for your question, Israel desires peace. To that end it offered the Palestinians all of Gaza, 95%+ of the West Bank and territorial compensation for the outstanding 5%. Have a look at Bill Clinton’s memoirs to see who he blames for the collapse of the Taba negotiations in January 2001 (hint – Arafat).

TurnRightThenLeft

As usual you make good points and have asked a fair question.

I have some military experience from a number of angles. Bit of infantry service, years closely liaising with military intelligence on counter-insurgency issues, living on army bases half my life, two generations of family members in the army involved with tanks/Armoured Personnel Carriers in WWII, Vietnam and up to the 1990s.

I agree with Ted that Hezbollah's demonstration of deadlier antitank weapons should be taken heed of by the Defence Department and armoured vehicles should be upgraded.

40 Canadian soldiers have now died in Afghanistan. An Australian force around 40% of the Canadian one is now going to a dangerous area of Afghanistan. Australian deaths are likely.

I may be wrong but I get the feeling Australians have been shielded from the worst areas of Iraq to ensure our Government will happily keep the flag flying. The barely reported widespread withdrawal of most non English speaking coalition partners means Australians have to fill in for them in dangerous areas where higher Australian casualties are very likely.

WHEN AUSTRALIANS START TO DIE IN COMBAT HOWARD WILL USE THE LINE "WE MUST REMAIN THERE TO HONOUR THE FALLEN" - ALWAYS SOUNDS GOOD BEFORE AN ELECTION - OF NO HELP TO THE FALLEN.

How about avoiding a situation of "the fallen" and allowing the Iraqis and Afghanis to fight their own traditional sectarian battles unsupported by Australia?

I've said in the past Australia should stay to keep al Qaeda busy "over there" but I now feel that the very presence of Western forces provides a recruiting reason for al Qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan and boosts homegrown terrorism.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Good Ted. Let's address those Arab threats first.


Here is the text of the official translation of the Saudi-proposed peace initiative adopted at the annual Arab summit in Beirut, Lebanon in 2002.

http://www.al-bab.com/Arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Check out the relevant UN resolutions No's 194, 242, 338. They are not unreasonable.

Now you quoted three individuals from Iran and Palestine. Those you quote as issuing threats would have a snowballs chance in hell of carrying out those threats without the support of all the Arab League Governments. That's realism. The threats of those individuals are unrealisable posturing.

The offer made by the Arab League Governments ('see above') is a statement from the Governments of the Arab states, not individuals. Considering two of those nations, Egypt and Jordan, already have a proven peaceful existance alongside Israel there is no reason why other Arab Governments could not endorse and carry out similar peaceful coexistance. That would mean the rest of Israel's immediate neighbours Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia would recognise and sign peace treaties with Israel. Any threat to Israel would need to cross those countries to pose any serious threat. Realistically that won't happen unless by nuclear attack from Iran. I doubt any such Iranian suggestion would be supported by Israel's immediate neighbours, or the Arab League.

The proposal by the Arab League guarantees Israel's security. So where is the problem?

The crux of the problem is that Israel will have great difficulty in meeting the requests for the return of lands (The illegal settlements) in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, compensation as called for in the UN resolutions, and the return of land to any Palestinian refugees returning to former lands in the state of Israel.

And yet the Israeli Government continues to sell dispossessed Palestinian land? Why are they auctioning further Palestinian land if all they want is peace?

I'll need another post to address Taba and Clinton. You may respond to this before I move on if you wish.

Ted,

You either didn't read my post, or more likely you've resorted to the stock-in-trade Zionist tactic of pedantic obfuscation.

I didn't deny Australia was a target before the Iraq war, and my post wasn't about chronology. The point was that just because a small minority of Muslim fanatics’ hate us doesn't mean we should encourage a large one to hate us. In simple terms, we should follow policies that improve the situation not make it worse. I'm sorry less bloodshed, violence and militarism doesn't coincide with Israel's interests, but we're not an appendix of Israel yet.

eet
"You either didn't read my post, or more likely you've resorted to the stock-in-trade Zionist tactic of pedantic obfuscation."

kang
"The trouble is that the Zionist lobby is so rich and influential that Australian politicians fall over themselves to be of service."

Was it Mein Kampf or Protocols of the Elders of Zion that you guys just read?

eet (again)
"We're not as hysterical as Israelis are - we don't believe in putting fuel on the fire in the hope that it will burn out quicker. We have boundries. We won't do whatever it takes. And, thank God, we value all human life."

Are you refering to Galipoli ot the Boer War?

Also I fail to see how obfuscation can be pedantic. Please explain if you can find time away from your predjudices.

Marilyn
You always address Ted Lapkin as "Teddy boy." May I address you as Little Miss Marilyn? Actually I am far too ethical and decent to do that, I was just joking.

Ted, I am pleased by the good sense and humanity of many who have. responed to you. The lessons most of us are drawing from the Lebanon invasion are not your "Lessons from Lebanon". Maybe there is hope for Australia not becoming part of a rump US-UK-Israel-Australia "Us against the world" alliance yet.

When did I become radicalised? In Cambodia from about 1996 onwards, I realised that the West's cold war politics had victimised the vulnerable Cambodian people. I urged changes in those misdirected policies and mindsets. To some extent, I succeeded. The fact that Prime Minister Hun Sen is coming to Australia this week as the Australian Government's guest suggests I had it right. To give Alexander Downer some credit, his pragmatism on Cambodia was a good response to the crisis created in 1996-97 by the breakdown of the fragile coalition of post-Communists and royalists.

My radicalisation starting in 2001-2002 was more fundamental. It went to issues of ends and means as employed by the Australian government and its security agencies which I used to trust but trust no longer.

Am I anti-American ? No, just anti-Bush policies. I like a lot of Americans and admire much of American culture.

Ted, I am not trying to drive you out of Australia - but maybe you should consider another kind of job ? Car salesman, maybe? Where you can employ your skills in gilding the lily and turning sows' ears into silk purses less destructively? In your present line of work, Ted, a lot of innocent people are dying.

As to cricket - go for it .. I prefer rugby or basketball or football. Play on, Ted ! But if you want to really be Australian, a good place to start would be to show some sympathy for the gross unfairness of what is being done to David Hicks. I somehow think that is an Australian values test you would fail.

KEITH –

1) On the one hand you seem to be arguing that might makes right: “They [Hizbullah] won. They don't have to disarm.” But you don't apply the same privilege to Israel, which captured the West Bank in a defensive war. Why the double standard?

2) The people I quoted are not “individuals,” but senior government officials. And given the Iranian nuclear program, it is ill-advised to dismiss Teheran’s belligerence as “unrealisable posturing.”

3) The Arab League offer that you so admire cites UN GA resolution 194 as a basis for resolving the Palestinian refugee issue. This is unacceptable because 194 serves as bedrock for the Palestinian claim to a ‘right of return.”

This so-called "right" of return is a euphemism for the demographic eradication of the Jewish state through an influx of 4-5 million Palestinians into Israel’s heartland. While proponents of return veil themselves in the cloak of a "two state solution,” their true agenda is the creation of a single Arab majority state of Palestine. Jews in such a nation, at best, would meet the bitter fate of other oppressed non-Muslim minorities who suffer under Arab despotism.

But any such proposal is categorically rejected by a wall-to-wall majority of Israeli Jews, who correctly see it as a thinly camouflaged demand for the dissolution of their country. When Israelis look around, they see an Arab world dominated by corrupt and repressive dictators, economic backwardness, illiteracy and other ills copiously documented by the 2002 UN Human Development Report. And Israelis have no desire to see their progressive, modern, hi-tech democracy transformed into yet another failed Arab backwater.

After other 20th century wars, millions of Greeks (1923) and Germans (1945-47) were expelled from places where they had lived for centuries. But no one is claiming a "right of return" for these other dispossessed groups. Why should the decendents of Palestinian refugees be eligible for a return that is not being mooted for the decendents of ethnic Germans and Greek wartime refugees? And I don't even mention for now the 800,000 Jews expelled after 1948 from Arab countries.

Keith,
'Well that's just evidence you are often prone to manipulating your genitalia in the manner widely undertaken in adolescence' -I think you may be well practice in this yourself -which may explain your severe myopia.

Interesting that you mention the point about the return of Palestinian refugees and the restoration of their rights.-is your camp really concerned about the welfare of the refugees?

Why is it that the Arab countries in which these refugees are currently residing do not allow the full citizenship & the right to live permanently?
The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) supposedly to protect right of return
According to their own commentary many Palestinians would d be happy to settle where they currently are -but are not permitted to. It seems the Arab states have vested interest in keeping the pressure cooker boiling

( If right of return is such an important principle - and this practice justified -perhaps Australia needs to consider applying it to Indochinese, Tian Amen Refugees & West Irian refugees-what do you think?)

I tell you what the west can learn from Israel - how not to behave. Not to shoot kids in the head by use of canon, or shooting teenagers who have done nothing wrong, or poisoning the crops of the native desert people...the Israeli's have become what we think we are against.

Israel is a nation that unfortunately treats others like filth, who have Nazi like movements and more. If you want to stop bottom of the barrel rubbish from coming into Australia, stop the Israeli's.

Learning? From, simply speaking, Jews?

You are maybe strange to Australia, mr. Lapkin

No "Logic", I did not learn about the power of the Zionist lobby and the way they influence Australian politicians by reading Mein Kampf or Protocols of the Elders. Why don't you learn some of the truth of the matter by reading Blanche d'Alpuget's biography of Bob Hawke or study the political career of H.V. Evatt and his rise within the U.N. ? Just for a start.

Or if you want to learn about the Mother of all Zionist Lobbies, on which others are modelled, and with which they connected, read the London Review of Books article by J. Mearsheimer and S. Walt on "The Israel Lobby" (23.3.06). They write, inter alia, that "other special interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US interests and Israel's are essentially identical."

It's time someone had the temerity to write a similar analysis of the lobby's work in Australia. There's plenty of evidence to be had.

Hi Ted

Well now we are getting somewhere other than considering war as a solution.

Sadly I find the view Israel captured the West Bank in a different light to you. True it was captured and is occupied but where I think we differ is that I don't see it as a prize in the sense of it being 'spoils of war'.
I think the Israelis should surrender it to it's original owners, like Sinai and parts of Jordan. They should stop stealing parts of it, selling it to settlers, building walls around parts of it and claiming it as it's own. You know as well as I those activities are expressly banned by the Geneva Convention.

Even as senior government officials they'd still have a snowball's chance to convince the rest of the Arab world their pathway is the optimum.

Where did I claim the Arab League as admirable. I find most of their positions just as repugnant as most of the positions of the Israelis. I'd deal with anyone who suggests peace and reframe from belittling them.

Yes as I said the right of return is a major sticking point. It was to Clinton's efforts at Taba as well. Even then it was not resolved. I don't need you to repeat the Israeli position on the issue. I am well aware of it. In your homily on this point you attack the peace proposers from the other side. I think that type of rhethoric and attitude is a major stumbling block to peace as well. Oh, I agree, it happens from both sides. If Israel really wants peace it will drop such talk and attitude. Similarly with the Arab and Palestinian side.We all see it for what it is...inbred emnity.

You missed one of the prime injustices of the Second War. The annexation of the Sudatenland by Hitler because it was occupied mostly by Germans. Hope we don't see a parallel to that, eh Ted.
Can you tell me those lands that are still occupied by the Allies after the defeats of Germany, Italy and Japan?

However I fundamentally agree the return of Palestinians to the lands given to Israel before '48 and those taken between that and the '67 war as an impossibility. I think that point needs negotiation. On the other hand I think any territory taken during and occupied after the '67 war should be returned and any settlers removed.

Those are the points that Camp David and Taba couldn't resolve.

That's where negotiations for peace should start.

And my final point. One of those UN resolutions spoke about compensation rather than a return. Why is that course impossible to negotiate?

Do any of those 800,000 Jewish and now presumedly Israeli citizens wish to rerturn?

Lebanon wasn't headed in the direction you claim...they were attempting a move toward true democracy. The Israelis have suppressed the development of the Palestinains and yet even they too had recently held democratic and proven fair elections.

Finally Taba and the deal offered by Israel. Nobody knows the details of the final Israeli proposal because there just wasn't one. My recall is that Ehud Barak refused to talk to Arafat because he was facing an election in Israel and thought it pointless. At that election Barak was dumped and Israel became more militarist and zionist and the rest is history.
Arafat retarded the Palestinain cause simply because he was a self-interested gangster.
Clinton's views! Ha... well who would bother I found him populist in the extreme and totally self-serving.

Regards Keith

ps My comments to Horus were intended as 'tongue in cheek'. That is a sad commentary on his continual and unoriginal personal attacks.

"Can you tell me those lands that are still occupied by the Allies after the defeats of Germany, Italy and Japan?"

Keith, how about Guam to start off.

Ted's assertion that the ATMs were from Iran and Syria do not hold water. It seems to my reading that he majority were from the Lebanese Army and supplied by the USA.

Israel has used "models" of weapons supposedly supplied by Russia via Syria.

Of course Hezbollah is a part of the democractically elected Govt. of Lebanon.

kang

"Why don't you learn some of the truth of the matter by reading Blanche d'Alpuget's biography of Bob Hawke or study the political career of H.V. Evatt and his rise within the U.N. ? "

What has all that do with your allegations of a powerful Zionist lobby? Where is your proof?

"Or if you want to learn about the Mother of all Zionist Lobbies, on which others are modelled, and with which they connected, read the London Review of Books article by J. Mearsheimer and S. Walt"

Their review which I read was like a rewrite of the Protocols. Like you it only quoted others who agreed with their sick hypothesis and contained no original work. A totally lazy piece of work.

If there is any group churning out propaganda it is the Palestinian lobby! Reporters in Lebanon were prevented by thugs from filming anything that spoiled their view of the events (SBS TV film shoot) while photos were so badly doctored that Reuters had to sack a photographer. Identical bodies were trundled out several times for successive shoots for different alleged Israeli attacks on different days (how often can you kill the same person?). The bodies and the rescuers were all incredibly clean particularly as they were wearing the same clothes for each shot. And the plight of religiuos minorities in Arab lands is deliberately ignored while Israeli Muslims and Christians are given a vote something which is denied to people in most Islamic lands.

If someone writes an article criticizing Israel you will believe it. If they write an article criticizing the Arabs you will condemn it. Why let facts get in your way?

Steve Madden

If Germany, Italy and Japan were firing rockets and sending suicide bombers to Allied lands they would be still occupied. The Allies aren't silly.

Keith,
You're certainly on the right side.You make personal attacks then duck over the border & claim respectability(much like Hezbullah).

How about my question re the Arabs declining to resettle the Palestinians ?
And the implication/consequences if other nations choose to follow suite.

PS Keith,
You've been tongue in cheek all along haven’t you?
The tongue is yours- but the cheeks belong to Hezbullahs Hassan Nasrallah.

logic,
"Also I fail to see how obfuscation can be pedantic. Please explain if you can find time away from your predjudices"

It seems pretty straight forward to me: pedantic - a person who is concerned with insignificant detail; obfuscation - to perplex or bewilder. Put them together and you get someone who tries to muddy the waters with irrelevant detail ie. the zionist lobby. Do you own a dictionary?

logic,
"Are you referring to Galipoli to the Boer War?"

What does Galipoli have to do with the war in Lebanon (except they were both disasters?) See what I mean about obfuscation.

logic,
"Was it Mein Kampf or Protocols of the Elders of Zion that you guys just read?"

More zionist hysteria.....people just don't get do they? Even though Israel has 100 nuclear bombs, its very existence is at stake from a group of guerillas with anti-tank weapons.... Perhaps you should just call us all anti-Semitic; it couldn't hurt your credibility any further.

eet

"Even though Israel has 100 nuclear bombs, its very existence is at stake from a group of guerillas with anti-tank weapons.... "

Where do you get this figure of 100 nuclear bombs from?

And if these guerillas have only anti-tank weapons who is bombing the North of Israel and Israeli ships with powerful missiles? That comment was stupid. They weren't toys that Hezbollah were using they were real and dangerous weapons.

And you talk about predjudices. Mine is that Israel wants to continue as a democratic nation and is modern enough to achieve that. I am also frightened of a fanatic fundamentalist Muslim movement that wants to force its medieval views on everyone and doesn't care who it kills in the process (Bali, New York, London, Mumbai, Madrid, Iran, Taliban, Darfur etc. etc. )

You want me to accuse you of anti-semitism, that is the typical defence of the anti Israel lobby, it is so easy then to twist my argument and cry foul.

I am the fourth generation of my family to live in this country and my sister is married to a descendent of a convict. And we are all Jewish (including the convict). We have never encountered anti-semitism in this land although some recent immigrant groups are introducing it. For the first time Synagogues are surrounded by fences and police. Don't cast me as anything but an established Aussie.

But your comments went way over the line. There is no such thing as a powerful Zionist lobby and Jews were in Israel long before Zionism.

Please excuse my interpretation of your sentence, I can only afford the Shorter Oxford Dictionary, but my understanding is that obfuscation means to darken or to obscure while a pedant can be one who stesses details and formal rules. One who is deliberately trying to obscure is unlikely to have a fixation on details. Perhaps if you have the OED you will have more detailed definitions.

It seems, my post on 10 October has been omitted as usual.

What logic could apply to a majority of this discussion, LOGIC, if seeing own nose is a very local achievement, one and only?

Steve Maddon,

Guam? Really? Did you know Guam has been an administered territory for over 400 years. Initially by the Spanish for about 250 years then by the Americans from the late 1800's then the Japanese for 4 years in the 1940's then the Americans, again, from 1945.

Not a good example though ... All the residents of Guam qualify for full US citizenship...unlike the residents of the occupied Palestinian territories.

:-) Next?

Ted

Still waiting to hear your view on the return of the Palestinian's lands in the West Bank and East Jeresulem and the removal of those illegal settlements.

Too difficult?

Keith

I would also like to see the return of the Palestinian's lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the removal of those illegal settlements.

I would also like to see the Israelis freed from the threat of attacks and anhiilation. I should like to see the Palestinians accept Israel and both sides forge a friendship. I am quite aware that you share my my thoughts on this point.

While admitting that a purely military solution will not bring peace it does protect the Israelis from being killed. And that is the short term requirement.

Perhaps Nasrallah and Abbas are the ones you should ask about that. Barack tried but his offer was rejected by the Palestinians.

Regarding Jerusalem and in particular the Temple Mount, Jews Christians and Muslims regard it as part of their history, but to Jews it has the greatest historic significance. Under Arab control Jews were denied access. Given the barrage of anti-Jewish propoganda in the Arab press,(Zionists have been blamed for the French Revolution) it is not surprising that a degree of distrust is held by the Israelis.

Keith

Indeed Resolutions 194, 242, and 338 were perfectly reasonable when they were passed in 1949, 1967, and 1973. But dude, hullo, it is now 2006! The Islamists never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They flatly rejected each of these initiatives in the past.

Tragically, time has long ago moved on and 194, 242, and 338 are irrelevant to 2006. For you to suggest otherwise is antisemitic as it ignores the mistakes the Islamists have made in thinking they could vanquish the Israelis.

You would also do well know to be informed that the Pals have never and do not have a "right" to return to israel. Sadly, for them, they have screwed Israel, and the world, around for so many decades that they have played all their cards.

They should be thankful if Israel offers them anything at all.

Kang

You would do well to know that the paper by J. Mearsheimer and S. Walt was roundly trashed by scholars the world over. I read it and I am quite familiar with the historiography and main scholars on the issues raised in the paper. The paper was junk and so unscholarly that I cannot believe that Stephen Walt actually wrote it.

I am familiar with Walt's real scholarship on strategic slliances and I cannot believe that the sophomoric reasoning, selective reliance of mere newspaper analyses and the syntactically-challenge prose could be written by a Harvard/Chicago professor.

Then to bring embarrassment to Australia, we had Antony loewenstein publish a virtually plagiarise of the M&W paper. I am very curious as to what sort of agenda drives the publication pof such shoddy works.

Neocommie

Largely I agree with you but be careful about the use of the word anti-semitism. I have been jousting with Keith for a long time and he is definitely not racist.

News flash KEITH – the world does not revolve around you and there is no Santa. I’ve been away on business. Your solipsism never ceases to amaze.

As for the settlements, your reference to them seems invariably to be preceded by the adjective “illegal.” Not a turn of phrase that indicates a willingness to listen to alternative views, but I’ll give it a shot, nonetheless.

I am curious on what you base your determination of the settlements’ illegality. If you are going to cite the 4th Geneva Convention, save your breath. It doesn’t apply.

At the end of Israel’s war of independence, the Arab nations refused to make peace with Israel, despite being defeated on the battlefield. At most, they were willing to accept a cease fire, because a peace treaty presupposed recognition of Israel, something they were unprepared to contemplate.

Thus the ‘Green Line’ separating pre-67 Israel and the West Bank was never recognised as a bona fide international border. This is why the authors of UNSC resolution 242 commented later that the resolution was never intended to mandate a complete Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line.

And the Jordanian seizure of the West Bank from 1949 to 1967 was similarly never accepted by the international community, including the Arab world. Only Jordan’s UK patrons and Pakistan ever recognised King Abdullah’s annexation of the West Bank.

And thus it can be plausibly argued that the Israeli capture of the West Bank did not constitute the conquest of foreign territory, but rather it was a restoration of the territorial integrity of what had been the Mandate of Palestine. And thus, the 4th Geneva Convention would not apply.

Despite all this, I think that if any resolution is to be had, it will involve Israel’s withdrawal from most – and not all – of the West Bank. Whether this will involve of the creation of a Palestinian state in conjunction with Gaza, or ultimately the West Bank will confederate with Jordan, I don’t know.

(see next post)

(continued)

But I do know two things: A) that for reasons of demographic self-preservation, Israel should not continue to rule over millions of hostile Palestinians in the West Bank, and B) any such withdrawal will only take place if Israel can be assured that the West Bank will not become a forward operating base for terrorists.

With the Palestinians electing a Hamas government, I don’t see any credible signs that they have relinquished their pipe dream of throwing the Jews into the sea.

True, one part of 194 talks about compensation for refugees, but the Palestinians continually harp upon the clause that calls for ‘return.’ Even Mahmoud Abbas, a purported ‘moderate,’ made the 'return' a central part of his campaign platform during the last presidential elections.

As for the 800,000 Jews forced to leave their homes throughout the Arab world with only the shirts on their backs, they do not want to return. But they would like compensation for the many billions (by today’s dollars) in property they were forced to forfeit without recompense.

I note that you fail to address my point about the fundamental unfairness of treating Palestinian war refugees differently than Greek, Pakistani, German or other war refugees. Of all these refugee populations, only the Palestinians have a special agency (UNRWA) devoted solely to them. Of all these refugee populations, only among the Palestinians is refugee status a hereditary state that is handed down from generation to generation. And of all these refugee populations, only the Palestinians are still in camps while the others have long since been resettled.

TONY KEVIN – you claim not to have suggesting that I should leave Australia. But your own paper trail reveals the contradictions between your various versions of events. In this very thread you previously posted:

“I think your cover is pretty much blown in Australia now: maybe it is time for a new country and a new role?”

If that’s not an invitation to decamp the country, I don’t know what is. A prime prerequisite for successful prevarication is a good memory, and yours regularly deceives you.

Expecting people like Ted Lapkin to respond to the tragedy of millions of human beings suffering because of Israel's actions is a pipe dream.
You can bring up the monstrous, illegal wall that takes even more land from the indigenous farmers, cuts through communities and denies people access to hospitals and schools: you can bring up the roadblocks where men, women and children are humiliated and left to wait in the hot sun or freezing cold for hours, and the women who have had to give birth there or the people who cannot get to hospital in time; you can bring up the ILLEGAL - yes they are illegal under the Geneva Conventions- squatters who live in fortified towns for Jews-only and have Jews-only roads,whilst the indigeous people struggle on the side roads and are subject to abuse from the criminals who come down to attack mostly old people and children. You can bring up the young IOF thugs, who at best bully, but often, kill on a daily basis.

Now, these are only some aspects that have made Israel a pariah state and despised by decent people around the world. BUT, you will not get compaasion and humanity from the self-interested people who wish to take this land, even the little 22% that is left for the indigenous people. The only point that can be achieved is to let Ted Lapkin know that the world is changing and more people join the number of caring people who want freedom and justice that has been denied Palestinians for almost 60 years.

You all are missing a Herald Sun/The Australian article about Melbourne mullah’s response to proposed changes in naturalization.

What is funny there, first time in Australia I had read advice to those not liking accent with which calls to wear ihijab and distract Israel pronounced, get out back to England:

<TONY KEVIN – you claim not to have suggesting that I should leave Australia. But your own paper trail reveals the contradictions between your various versions of events. In this very thread you previously posted:

“I think your cover is pretty much blown in Australia now: maybe it is time for a new country and a new role?”

If that’s not an invitation to decamp the country, I don’t know what is. A prime prerequisite for successful prevarication is a good memory, and yours regularly deceives you.
Posted by Ted Lapkin, Thursday, 12 October 2006 5:29:30 PM>

sunisle

Can you manage to get over your extreme hatred and understand something of Israel's view?

The wall is monstrous I think Ted would agree, but the alternative is to have your children murdered on bus stops or when out enjoying themselves in discos or cafes like any Australians. Israeli parents used to worry every time their kids were late home from school. Can't you see that?
You discuss legality, is it legal to bring up children to kill themselves and murder others in the process in the belief that Allah will reward them? To me, and I would think all Aussies that is one of the most monstrous crimes in history. I know of no other society which has ever done such a thing regardless of their perceived problems. And you mention decency.

And then you discuss indigenous people. Since when were the Arabs the indigenous people in Palestine? Or for that matter Egypt Lebanon or Iraq. They were conquerors from Arabia. The 800,000 Jews forced in modern times to leave their homes throughout the Arab world with only the shirts on their backs were in the main more indigenous to their countries than the Arabs. As were the Copts in Egypt. And besides Ted has never suggested that he supports settlements.

You ask for compassion and humanity. I trust you have equal compassion for the Israeli Arabs killed by Hezbollah rockets (40% of those killed)? And the people in Darfur? How many killed there?

Ted,
"I note that you fail to address my point about the fundamental unfairness of treating Palestinian war refugees differently than Greek, Pakistani, German or other war refugees."

You forgot to mention Jewish refugees in WW2. Oh wait, that's right, more than fifty years later they were still "shaking down" (Finkelstein's phrase) European banks for billions. Read Finkelstein's book - it details the Jewish lobby's access to Clinton when he was President. It details how American Jewry convinced many US states and institutions to threaten boycotts unless those firms 'paid up'. Out and out blackmail. It's a shame Israel isn't as 'ethical' as the Europeans when it comes to paying the Palestinians compensation.

I await your character assassination of Finkelstein (and myself).

Ted,
"Of all these refugee populations, only among the Palestinians is refugee status a hereditary state that is handed down from generation to generation. And of all these refugee populations, only the Palestinians are still in camps while the others have long since been resettled."

Do you mean like Jewish refugees that may not have been in the ME for five hundred years but enjoy an automatic right of return. While Arabs chased from their land by Jewish terror squads in the past 60 years ago cannot.

Oh please Logic- quite inappropriate name- the old strategy of blaming the victims and excusing the aggressors won't wash.

Israel occupies millions of INDIGENOUS people- not the other way around. The pathetically few young INDIGENOUS people who kill themselves in order to resist the occupation are small potatoes compared with the homicide killers of the IOF, who kill, go home for dinner and then back the next day to kill again.

The INDIGENOUS people are those people referred to by Balfour, when he said, "....for in Palestine, we do not even propose to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the inhabitants."

They are the people referred to by Weizman, the head of the Committee for Removal and Expulsion,when he said, "...not one village, not one tribe must remain" and "the British told us there are some hundred thousand negoes, Kushim, and for these there is no value"!

They are the children and grandchildren of the 13,000 human beings massacred by the European colonisers. They are some of the 750,000- and their descendents- expelled from their land by the same European colonisers.

And, no, it is way past time for looking at Israel's "view" the west has had the "view"- Zionist propaganda- pushed down it's throats ad nauseum for nearly 60 years...it is time for the victims to be heard.

We now understand what happened and it's too late to pull the threadbear veil of hypocrisy over Israel's "view".
Israel has had 60 years to right a terrible wrong- instead Israelis are still persecuting the INDIGENOUS people...and the young thugs of the IOF are just getting more brutal.

And Lapkin knows all this and doesn;t bat an eye...so, no, i don't believe that the illegal,monstrous wall and it's effects on the INDIGENOUS people bother him...as he is also unconcerned about the millions of fellow human beings who are being persecuted by people of his religion.

sunisle

Who are the millions of fellow human beings who are being persecuted by people of Ted's religion? Millions being persecuted by a small minority religion? Are you mad or so full of hate you cannot see reason?

And are these ficticious millions of "persecuted people" so silly and incompetent that they can be persecuted by such a small bunch? Have you been watching too much Doctor Who?

And when you wrote of indigenous people I thought you were refering to the original inhabitants. But who were they? Jews were in Egypt and Iraq long before the Arabs arrived. This did not stop the Egyptians and Iraqis from pushing their descendants out.

And once again what about the 800,000 Jews forced to leave their homes throughout the Arab world with only the shirts on their backs. Do you have a concern for them too? They are not training their children to kill and maim others and blow themselves up in the process. They got up off their buts and worked hard for a new life. Their descendents now occupy half of the Israeli nation.

And eet

The above paragraph refers also to you. You want Israel to pay compensation to the displaced Arabs but don't expect the Arabs to pay compensation to the displaced Jews. Why not? Who has the oil wealth? Would you give these Jews a right of return? And the Copts? Do you have one law for Muslims and another for infidels?

The trouble is that you gentlemen swallow completely the Arab propaganda and then twist the argument to the Zionists who you imagine to have some incredible powers over the world. The Russians and the Nazis invented that ridiculous line. The anti-Israel anti-Zionist cartoons and stories now in Arab newspapers are simply poor copies but the gullible left believe it.

You talk about the view of the West. They all had a gutfull of recent terrorism and know that it is coming from one direction. That is what shapes their view

And misquoting lines from Jews who appear to support you doth not an argument make.

Logic,

I can only presume that yuo have never been to the ME and that you do not read with depth.

If you had been to Gaza and the West Bank you would know what I am talking about. Gaza is an open air prison and the West Bank is being made into one as we speak; if you do not want to believe a non-Israeli's critisism if this nation's cruelty to the indigenous people, try reading the works of Illan Pappe, Uri Aevnery, Dr, Uri Davies- a Palestinian Jew- and Dr. Tania Reinhart, who was in Sydney last week- but I don't expect that you went to hear her talks.

Better still, go see for yourself. I defy any decent person to see what Israel is doing to the indigenous people and not come away disgusted and full of compassion for these people who have suffered for nearly 60 years. Just go!

Logic

Thank you for your respect.

I quoted the Arab League peace proposal from 2002. It guarantees those things Israel would expect. As I already pointed out Barak never made a final offer. He was thrown out by Israeli electors before he could.
Yep the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque site is importsnt to both religions. Perhaps an International Administration of the site could be managed? (N.B. Not all Christians think it important.) Jerusalem could be claimed by many groups including the Spanish, Romans, British etc.

Neocommie.

You'll get only one opportunity to withdraw your stupid remark.

But just for fun conside the following:
The Bible was written more than 57 years ago yet there are groups of people who swear it is relevant to today and use it as a basis to claim ownership of land.

Mind explaining what relavance the bible has to the political situations of 2006? ;-)

Israel offers the usual socialist totalitarian solutions to problems: Subjugatio

Logic

'They are not training their children to kill and maim others and blow themselves up in the process.'

This is the type of propaganda we've suffered for years. Lebanon undermind that in our minds.

Tell me does conscription teach youngsters to pander to each other?

Fact: Most, not all but most, Israelis are conscripted.
Fact: Conscription trains children to kill amd maim others.
Fact: How many suicide bombers?
Fact: How many Israeli conscripts?

Israel has a couple of things in common with North Korea.

Most North Koreans are trained for warfare. So are most Israelis.

keith

Unfortunately Israel has been under heavy attack ever since it was first formed with a UN resolution. The attacks were by people who wanted to destroy it and some who shouted that they wanted to push the Israelis into the sea.

Like wartime Britain and Australia it trains every male in the military. (So does Switzerland). In fact I was the first in my generation not to have to do compulsary national service in Australia. Israel unlike N Korea (and Switzerland)is under continuous threat. So it must do what every threatened nation does. No people like to be killed or destroyed.

That is also why the Gaza strip is an enclosed area (some say like a prison). Gaza is a chief protagonist against Israel. What would you or sunisle do if placed in a similar situation? Israelis don't like their families, their children being continuously exposed to rockets and suicide bombs. The settlers should never have been there and I did not like Sharon but the settlers were removed from Gaza and the inhabitants of the Gaza strip given there own government Which they never had under any former administration.

What did they do? Immediately started firing rockets on Israel and tunneling under the border and killing and capturing Israelis. They then voted for a government which as a policy refused to accept Israel. What message does that give? Where do you think they would be now if still under Turkish or Jordanian rule?

And why are children acting as suicide bombers? I know of no other people who are doing that. Certainly not the Australian aborigines or the native Americans who are (sunisle take note) genuine indigines.

I have been to the middle east (not just Israel). And I read with at least the same depth that other contributors do.

Logic,

I see that you have ignored the Israeli academics I spoke of; you also ignored the quotes; this is what I mean about reading with depth, rather than parroting the propaganda in the brief headlines in rag newspapers. Do you ever read the Guardian or even Haaretz...any world newspapers?

You also ignore my point about the IOF homicide killers being more deadly that the much fewer suicide killers of the Palestinian resistance...and most Palestinians do not agree with this tactic....that's why they are so few. The homicide killers, however, are part of this nation's policies toward the indigenous people. THey, unlike the few young people who kill themselves to fight back, can go home after killing, have dinner and come back the next day to kill again. ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

If you do not address the above issues- in reply to your comments- I can only presume that you wish to just keep parroting the propaganda and not think deeply about this HUMAN issue.

And it is not Israel that is under atack- if you had REALLY been to the occupied Palestinian Territories you would know this. It is the millions of indigenous people who have been under attack for almost 60 years.

Where did you stay when you were in the occupied Territories? What are your views on the "settlers" having Jews-only fortified towns and roads inside the terrritories, whist the indigenous people have to struggle through roadblocks and along side roads in their own land?

What are your veiws about the huge wall that surrounds Gaza, with only one entry/exit comtrolled by the stromtrooper IOF? What are your views about these same thugs not allowing the farmers to sell their produce? Whata re your views about human rights groups denied access to wounded people by these same thugs

Keith
You say:
“They are not training their children to kill and maim others and blow themselves up in the process.' This is the type of propaganda we've suffered for years. Lebanon undermind that in our minds”
In modern day parlance propaganda connotes promotion of false information/ideas
Are you suggesting that the Halmas run schools which GLORIFY suicide bombing to primary school aged children. & teach a very one eyed -lopsided view of history –including, quote ‘JEWS ARE THE ENERMY ON MANKIND’ and “Jews are monkeys & pigs” are benign?
Or is it just that you chose not to see it –because it is not compatible with your mindset?

You say:
“Israel has a couple of things in common with North Korea.
Most North Koreans are trained for warfare. So are most Israelis.”
What simplistic crap!
It would have been truer to say that Israeli citizens are subject to conscription as are the citizens of Greece or Turkey, & others.
But Israeli citizens are not taken away at the age of 5-6 & indoctrinated into hate as are Hama’s & Hezbollah protégés.

The ideology that Hama & Hezbollah subscribe to is much closer to the dominant creed of Nth Korean/Soviet Russia –remove Kim Il Sung & substitute “Allah” & you have little difference.(Which may be why so many leftists feel kinship with the Halmas & Hezbollah “cause(s)”?)

And you said earlier:
“Can you tell me those lands that are still occupied by the Allies after the defeats of Germany, Italy and Japan?”
Try these for size:
i) Sakhalin Island & it Japanese population-( an area in size probably bigger than the whole of Israel) taken by the Soviet Union & still occupied by Russia
ii) The Kurile islands ( Ditto above )
( but one may ask, why limit it Italy, Germany & Japan –history-both previously & more recently - is stuffed full of similar exemplars)

Horus:

You forgot Kaliningrad, now part of Russia, but formerly named Koeningsberg, the capital of East Prussia. And all of East Prussia past the Oder and Neisse rivers became part of Poland in 1945 (to compensate for those parts of eastern Poland annexed by Stalin. 12 million ethnic Germans were expelled from the homes they had held for centuries as a result of this redrawing of eastern Europe's border at the Potsdam Conference.

Keith:

Your absurd attempt to posit a similarity between Israel and North Korea on the basis of the fact that both nations have mandatory military service programmes merely emphasises what an unserious guy you really are. I guess Norway, Sweden, Switzerland are similar to the Kim Jung Il regime as well, eh? You lower yourself to the level of sunisle, whose toxic rantings are so far beyond the bounds of reason that discourse with her has no point.

Perhaps I was mistaken about you.

And if you truly don't believe that Palestinian children are being encouraged to embrace 'shahada' (martyrdom), then I suggest you have a look at the material at Palestinian Media Watch or MEMRI. It is freely accessible on the web. Both these organisations have reams of video footage taken from Palestinian Authority TV that shows the vilest forms of incitement to violence and Jew-hatred of the basest form imaginable.

Do some homework and get back to me on that one - ok? Presuming, of course, that you are willing to avoid asinine pseudo-analogies like the one between Jerusalem and Pyongyang.

sunisle

I will have one more try before giving up on you. I notice the others already have.

You keep hanging on the description of the Palestinians as indigenous. A nice piece of emotion but without justification.

The Israelis like the Palestinians are largely all born in their respective middle eastern countries. From an Australian centred point of view that gives them all equal rights to live where they are. I have no wish to go down the IRA or Basque separatists path which I consider futile pointless and selfish.

There may relatively few suicide bombers but they have killed a lot of innocent people and why do they exist at all? It is an abomination. Can you imagine such a group occuring with for example the Australian aborigines (who are true indigenes)? There must be a support structure behind them. It is hard for me to even imagine a society which produces as many as they have. In our country any parent who produced a teenege suicide bomber would be investigated by relevent child protection authorities and might have their remaining children placed under state protection.

If the Palestinian government cannot keep their suicide bombers and their missile launchers under control Israel must do it for its own good.

If the Palestinians want a good quality of life for themselves they must guarantee it to their neighbours. This they have never done.

Regarding reading you seem to pick and select views which at least superficially seem to agree with your point of view and regard that the equivalent of a good education. It is not.

Hi Ted

I’ve commented before how inappropriate are the insults that are thrown between protagonists in the mid East. The same applies in fair dinkum discourse.

Santa exists. My family grew up experiencing the Christmas Spirit and Santa’s generosity, in all its meanings

Under the Geneva Convention those settlements, if any attempt is made to annex them, are illegal. I’ve no problem with continuing so long as they are under the sovereignty and control of the Palestinian state.

Ted first you don’t believe in Santa then you use an argument that indicates you want your cake and to eat it too.

Your argument indicates you believe in ‘the spoils of war’ concept. Israel has the right to the land because it won it in a war. Right?
So then why don’t you accept the Arabs have the same right?
Israel pushed Palestinians off Palestinian lands. When the Arabs say they intend to do the same, i.e. push the Israelis into the sea, you call foul and harp on and on moaning and grizzling like there is no tomorrow.
No manipulation of the pros and cons of the diplomatic detail cannot alter that basic reality.
No the settlements’ lands belong to Palestine. I’d agree with the Arab plan. Borders settled at ‘67 and not at the borders proposed under UN resolution 181.

http://en,wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

We could dwell on that point but let us move on. We do agree on your points A and B. They are reasonable and fair.

I think you misread both the Palestinians and Hamas. Hamas with the reigns of power would have gone down a similar road as Arafat’s PLO. The moderates would have gained the ascendency and become more representative of the Palestinians than Arafat ever was. The electors voted for just that. You overlook the fact Hamas was able to adapt and dropped that disgraceful demand from it’s election manifesto before the recent election.

I also agree compensation needs to be two ways. I’m sure the American taxpayers would be overjoyed with your suggestion. It would lift some of their annual burden. ;-)

Three points re the refugee issue
1) I think the world has a conscience and is becoming much more aware of and sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, especially after Lebanon.
2) An edict of the world body resulted in the initial displacement of Palestinians. That was not the case in the examples you cite. That makes a huge difference.
3) Perhaps the Palestinians are more resolved to hang onto their homeland than other groups. Remember Israel has recall of lessons of other groups who displayed just such lack of resolve.

Hi Logic

1/ In the same position, I’d make a workable peace in something less than 60 years and save my friends lotsa money.

2/ Now your latest post has just shown us that there is something else Israel has in common with North Korea.

Horus and others

Israelis are taught similar things at home by their media. A reading of some popular Israeli publications and research of quotes of some of Israeli’s former and current leaders would maybe provide some balance currently lacking.

Horus

North Korea has no State religion. Israel is much closer to Hamas and Hezbollah when it comes to religious fervour and its ideological basis.
Really how twisted is your logic…mate? You can see religion in a godless state? Your amazing justification reveals an almost monkey-like gymnastic intellectual exercise!

Horus et el
Do you realise that you have, likely unwittingly, chosen to compare and equate the actions of Israel, with regard to occupation, with the actions of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics instead of the actions of the Allies of the free and liberal Western world? Guess that intellectual Freudian slip indicates a totalitarian sympathy at heart…eh?

Horus

Don’t think I did not guess you’d confuse yourself, once you got past posting ‘one liners’, with your own illogical musings and mumblings and leave yourself open to such public ridicule. You with your base insults deserve little better.
I couldn’t have planned a better opening to expose your inbred totalitarian sympathies and leanings.

Yep, that’s it! I’m a peace-loving liberal Westerner.

Keith, you assert: "an edict of the world body resulted in the initial displacement of Palestinians. That was not the case in the examples you cite. That makes a huge difference."

WRONG AGAIN.

Here are two more international edicts that forcibly expelled millions:

At the end of the Greco-Turkish war, the international community promoted the first large-scale population exchange of the 20th century. According to the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne, over two million people were de jure denaturalised and forcibly ejected from homelands where they had lived for centuries, and even millenia.

The population exchange took place as a result of an agreement signed in January 1923 by the governments of Greece and Turkey, as well as the WWI Allies. Turkish nationals of the Greek Orthodox religion who resided within the finalised borders of Turkey were denaturalised and expelled to Greece. And Greek nationals of the Muslim religion who resided within the finalised borders of Greece were expelled to Turkey. While this process of ethnic cleansing was agreed upon by the Turkish and Greek governments, it was imposed at bayonet-point upon millions of individuals who had no choice in the matter. The openly declared objective of this policy was to engineer an ethnic homogeneity in the Balkans that would avoid the sort of tensions that had triggered WWI.

And the victorious Allies at the Potsdam Conference in 1945 explicitly ordered the expulsion of 12 million Germans from East Prussia. While the Potsdam Declaration mandated an “orderly and humane” deportation process, it is generally accepted that over 1 million German civilians lost their lives during the process.

Winston Churchill clearly enunciated the rationale for this policy of ethnic cleansing during a speech in the House of Commons:

"Expulsion is the method which, in so far as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble... A clean sweep will be made. I am not alarmed by these transferences, which are more possible in modern conditions…"

So much for your “huge difference.”

keith

"Now your latest post has just shown us that there is something else Israel has in common with North Korea."

Please explain. It is not self evident to me.

The whole history of the creation of Israel is far more complex and two sided than you see. The point is that there are second and third and more generation Jews in Israel. Some are from families who never left. (The Romans allowed some to remain). And the Israelis have an attachment to their land just as you and I and even Marilyn have to ours.

All of this ignores the essential question: why are civilised, first-world nations taking sides in a centuries-old grudge match between middle-eastern tribes?

It's ridiculous to argue that anyone in the middle-east is innocent, while their neighbours are guilty, and it's ridiculous to argue that they care about justice any more. They'll keep on fighting until the AK-47s run out of ammo, then they'll start stabbing each other with pointy sticks. It's what they do.

You'll notice that the US isn't supplying nukes and guided missiles to select West African militias. It won't until there's a wealthy, influential West African lobby bankrolling right-wing political parties there, at which point left-wing supporters will take up the cause of the impoverished militias. Everyone will take sides based on media coverage and political affiliation, regardless of who is killing and mutilating whom.

Let's sort out an alternative energy source to oil, go back to the cold war policies of containment in the middle-east, and let the savages fight it out for themselves.

I had expected more from this "forum"; instead we have the old propaganda merchant telling porkies with authority...and actually fooling "logic' it would appear. The very idea that "settlements" are not against the Geneva Comventions ! Of course, some will believe this because Ted Lapkin says it!
Then there's "Logic" who refuses to discuss why Israeli war crimes- 1 million cluster bombs in Lebanon just one of the many war crimes- interest him less than the few suicide fighters....BYW, when was the last one "Logic"? Why are these few incidents much more important to you than the myriad of horrendous crimes committed by Israel? Tell you what, forget it; you are unable to answer and Lapkin knows he cannot pull the wool over my eyes.

I would suggest you read Marilyn's post on the Dateline guestbook; she has more patience than me and I'm tired of repeating facts that you ignore.

Oh, BYW, did you read any of the Israeli academics' work? Did you look up the Gush Shalom web site? I know you have never been to the occupied territories of Palestine..but please try to read more. Oh, and Edward Said's "Orientalism" has added interest given the Israeli ambassador's racist outburst...no prizes for guessing where he learnt this racism.

SUNISLE - The question of whether Israel is guilty of "war crimes" should adjudicated on the basis of the contents of the international treaties that make up the law of armed conflict. I challenge you to cite me any of the primary source documents (Geneva Conventions, et al) that outlaw the use of ICMs, commonly known as cluster bombs.

Secondary sources from NGOs that tendentiously interpret the laws of war to advance their own political agendas (e.g. Amnesty and HRW) don't count.

You won't be able to come up with anything because ICMs are not prohibited under any of the conventions that govern the legal conduct of war. And the same holds true for other Israeli weapons and tactics.

And your concern about the effects of bombardment is a tad one sided. You seem to have no problem with Hezbulla's cross border raid that triggered this war. You appear to be blithley unconcerned about the 4,000 Hezbollah rockets that pounded northern Israel. I guess those 6 year-old Israelis cowering in Galilee bomb shelters for 34 days were nothing more than evil Zionists in minature who deserved everything they got, eh?

As for your favourite Israeli professors, not only do they come from the far left fringe of the Israeli political spectrum, but their scholarship is shoddy and marked by tendentiously selective citations and outright falsehoods. I would commend you to Efraim Karsh's "Fabricating Israeli History," where he rips to shreds the work of Benny Morris and Avi Schlam, et al.

Any claim Ilan Pappe had to serious scholarly standing was eviscerated when he endorsed the work of a leftist graduate student who fabricated tall tales of Israeli war crimes in 1948. The student was forced to recant his fabrications when challenged in open court. Yet Pappe continued to stand by his man despite all evidence to the contrary, flushing his credibility down the tubes.

sunisle

I will read your references if you will read ones by Brigitte Gabriel or other not Jewish writers who support Israel.

There have been a lot more than a few suicide bombers and they have killed a lot of people. And what about the nudreds of missiles fired at Israel. The fact that the numbers killed was fairly light is because of protective action taken by the Israelis such as provision of shelters. (Hezbollah attacked with hundreds of missiles and dug huge underground caverns for its rockets but nothing to protect the Lebanese citizens).

Trouble is that you confuse Hezbollah with the Lebanese people and ignore anything that comes from US or Israeli sources believing only what the dedicated anti Israel or extreme left wing sources tell you.

The problem I have with the left is that they sit at computers or desks and write and read usually with someone else buying their dinner. You notice the sufferings of the Palestinians but not the sufferings of the Israelis or the non-Muslims in Arab lands. Nor do you appreciate that a problem for the Palestinians is the dominance of hot heads who blow up their own factories and prevent the rest earning a living. It is these extermists who make them unpopular with the rest of the world and gain unfortunate hatred of others in Lebanon.

When the extremists let the rest live in peace everyone will be better. the same applies to the Basques and the IRA.

Oh boy, Ted Lapkin, you are good at your job; I'll give you that. The very idea that you could dismiss Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch so flippantly is a good display of bravado. I cannot imagine taking your word over these non-aligned bodies in a million years. Self-interest in not an attractive, nor trustworthy trait; altruism is.

And, I have no doubt that yuo know full well this invasion of Lebanon had been planned years before. Did you see the 4 Corners article in Alteroun? Over a million cluster bombs were left after the truce was signed; the fact that you seek to justify such a monstrous act is against all human decency.

I do not believe for a minute that my posts make an iota of difference to your mind set. I can only conclude that the indoctrination of anti-Falestinian racism helps blanket a person's mind when they know of the cruelty and suffering inflicted on these people, but don't want to stop it.

I am actually afraid of you, but we need to stand up to buliies and thugs, no matter how powerful. My mind is made somewhat easier in that there is a growing awareness of the pathology of Zionism. Last week was Palestinian awareness week at Sydney Uni. - I'm actually not sure of the exact name for it, but the reason is the same. No more propaganda to hide Israel's crimes behind.

When this tragedy -for all the protaganists- is over will you admit to taking the stand you have? ( I'm an optimist in that I hope we both live to see peace in the area). Like the old "white" South Africans will you admit to helping cover up the crimes against the "blacks"?

Ted,
Recently you attributed a quote and certain beliefs to me.
Logic said of Israelis ‘They are not training their children to kill and maim others…’.
I had not said that the about Palestinians?
I disputed Logic's claim by indicating conscription does just that.

Conscription: Israel and North Korea.
Both: use the excuse of overwhelming external threat to
maintain conscription. (This Logic)
have used conscripts to invade their neighbours.
are nuclear powers yet perceive and carry on about
fictitious or exaggerated outside threats.
These make Israel and North Korea similar and substantially different from the European nations you cite.

Why yell? You’d be much better off writing a response to something I’d written rather than to something you’d hoped I’d written.

I said nothing about international edicts, nor the results of negotiations between three world powers at Potsdam. I did say, ‘an edict of the world body’. Notice ‘the world body’. The cases you cite didn’t involve any world body. They involved individual nations not acting as a world body. (Like the League of Nations or the UN)
There is the huge difference.

Some clarity here.
Do you not understand these cases you quote, you are quoting to justify Israel’s continued occupation of West Bank and East Jerusalem and the forced displacement of Palestinians?

Can’t you see that when you do you are using precedents of undemocratic totalitarian Governments with values completely alien to the West… with whom you attempt to align and seek support?

Israel’s values in the area of occupation match those from Stalinist Russia all the way through to Ronnie Reagan’s ‘Evil Empire’. In citing them as precedents you accept that as fact.

You’ve called my comparison with North Korea absurd as well as asinine. Mate what words would you toss about to describe your use of the actions of these totalitarian regimes as precedents to justify the Israeli occupations and illegal settlements?

Logic

Correcting more Israeli misinformation.

Far more Palestinians are killed by Israelis than Israelis killed by Palestinian suicide bombers.
The Arab League peace proposal of 2002 spelt out exactly what you want.

Ted

You are right those weapons are not outlawed.

BUT Ted

their use against civilains and non-combatant peacekeepers is outlawed. Since they were deployed after the truce that's exactly who they were deployed against.

That Ted is a war crime under the terms of the Geneva Convention. So now Ted who ordered their deployment?

Sunisle

“...called today on the leaders of Palestinian factions and Palestinian government officials to bring an immediate end to the lawlessness and vigilante violence that has plagued the Occupied Palestinian Territories and to hold the perpetrators of this violence accountable. ”

“Shi`a armed groups have threatened to kill Palestinian refugees living in Baghdad if they do not leave Iraq within 72 hours, “

“Although both the U N's Human Rights Council and the Lebanese government have called for Israel to be held accountable for its crimes, they have not done so for Hezbollah. This failure sends Hezbollah a message that it can act with impunity while undermining the protection of civilians caught in fighting involving armed groups around the world. “

“The scheduled executions in Iran this week of two juvenile offenders – and their last-minute reprieve – highlight the country’s status as the world leader in juvenile executions “

“Hezbollah fired thousands of these unguided rockets directly into civilian areas with no way of guiding the attack toward a military target, knowing that civilian casualties would be the likely result. “

“Palestinian refugees in Iraq face particularly grave security threats, including targeted killings by mostly Shi`a militant groups and harassment by the Iraqi government “

“militant groups have targeted Iraqi Palestinians for violence and have evicted them from their homes, largely because of the benefits these refugees received from Saddam Hussein’s government and their perceived support for the insurgency “

“Saudi Arabia should immediately end its discrimination against its 100,000 Chadian residents, most of whom were born in the kingdom but are increasingly denied the rights to basic education and emergency healthcare “

“Hezbollah fighters did hide among civilians “

“By adopting a politicized resolution that looks only at Israeli abuses in the current conflict, the Human Rights Council undermined its credibility and wasted an opportunity to protect civilians in the region, ”

“The (UN Human Rights) council decided to establish a commission of experts to investigate deadly attacks by Israel, but took no action with regard to Hezbollah’s murderous abuses. ”

Zionist propaganda?

No, “Human Rights Watch.”

KEVIN- You misunderstand the law of war. One of its fundamental principles is the distinction between military and non-military objectives. But of course, Israel's enemies deliberately shield themselves behind non-combatants. Even the UN concedes this obvious fact.

The IDF requires JAG officers to approve every airstrike and artillery bombardment to ensure that they comport with the law of armed conflict (LOAC). And LOAC holds that a genuine effort must be made to attack solely targets of substantial military significance. And provided an honest attempt to avoid non-combatant injuries is made, armed action is legally justified, even if civilians are accidentally harmed.

The 1907 Hague Conventions are the foundation stone for the modern law of war. Read what Article 2 of the 1907 Hague Convention on Naval Bombardment has to say on this subject:

"2. Military works, military or naval establishments, depots of arms or war ' matériel, ' workshops or plant which could be utilized for the needs of the hostile fleet or army, and the ships of war in the harbour, are not, however, included in this prohibition [against bombardment]. The commander of a naval force may destroy them with artillery, after a summons followed by a reasonable time of waiting, if all other means are impossible, and when the local authorities have not themselves destroyed them within the time fixed. He incurs no responsibility for any unavoidable damage which may be caused by a bombardment under such circumstances."

"If for military reasons immediate action is necessary, and no delay can be allowed the enemy, it is understood that the prohibition to bombard the undefended town holds good, as in the case given in paragraph l, and that the commander shall take all due measures in order that the town may suffer as little harm as possible."

In other words, if a site is being used for military purposes, it becomes a legitimate objective of war. The attacking forces should give prior warning, although not even this is strictly necessary. And if reasonable measures are taken to avoid civilian casualties, the attacker incurs no responsibility for any unavoidable damage.

I have struggled to understand what is going on in Lebanon and Israel.

But I see a loose correlation of the “immigration” debate in Australia. We have groups who hate each other and no amount of logic and reason will stop this.

One thing I do know is that Israel has the right to exist and for the citizens of Israel to live in peace.

Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon etc. have tried and failed to oust them militarily and it must be obvious that aggression can not work.

I suggest that if Australia was in the same position with neighbors lobbing missiles on us and restaurants being blown up by suicide bombers we would react in a very similar way.

Israel is not totally blameless but I for one can’t blame them for their actions.

Keith

The Bible has nothing to do with this. And neither does the Arab league.

Sunisle

As soon as you start citing failed academic Ilan Pappe and that preposterous fraud Edward Said, you have lost the argument.

I had thought to end this ridiculous waste of time with closed minded people who either have no idea what is happening to the Palestinians or do know and it serves their self interest to try to hide it.

However, to the person saying Edward Siad is a fraud and Ilan Pappe "failed"....prove it. Your saying something does not make it so; to childishly making these accusations without a smigeon of evidence is typical of Israeli supporters.

What particular claims - and in what books- do you find fraudulent statements? It's strange to claim this as every Zionist and his dog has tried to discredit Said...without success.

And just what has Pappe failed in?

Yes Tony, plucky little Israel's been out of fashion ever since parts and knowhow for atomic warfare arrived in Haifa 35 years back per favour of the US of A.

With so many nations now nuclear armed like Israel, the only peace possible in the Middle East is either the one based on unipolar missile diplomacy as the US is now battling with, or the one based on a balance of power, which indeed was practised between the US and the Soviets during the height of the Cold War. The fear of nuclear destruction reached such a stage that many philosophers believe that liason between the US and the USSR went on at times.

No need to go into more detail. During the Cold War there were volumes of it.

The balance of power theory is far from new, the 19th Century Concert of Europe after the Napoleonic Wars rather boringly full of it, until Bismarck and his Realpolitik turned up.

Surely there is no need to repeat again how Bismarck drew all the Germanic states into Prussia with hardly firing a shot - captured the whole of France in 1871 frightening the hell of the French with his big new long range guns. Cleared out after telling the French to behave themselves or he'd be back, but mostly remembered by German families as the first ever to grant pensions, especially for birthing mothers.

Although Bismarck could also be cruel if he did not get his way, most historians almost adore him, even these days when they look on the historical predictions that if Bismarck had been alive in 1914 WW1 would never have begun. And as Maynard Keynes observed and agreed later, it was only the nastiness towards the Germans during the Treaty of Versailles that brought on the rise of Hitler and the onset of WW2.

It is believed that holding the war trigger right now in the Middle East is Israel. Therefore in Realpolitik power balance theory to switch off the war trigger, Iran should be allowed to have nuclear rockets to match Israel.

Bushbred:

If you think that a desire to wipe Israel off the map is the sole rationale behind Iran's quest for nukes, you are naive.

The Iranians see themselves as a regional power and they have aspirations to control the Persian Gulf, from whence the world gets 60% of its oil. The Arab states of the Gulf are not happy campers at the prospect of a nuclear Iran, nor is Egypt for that matter. If Iran gets nukes, then watch out for a regional arms race with Saudi Arabia, Egypt and perhaps some of the Gulf emirates trying to get them as well. Not a pretty picture in such a strategically vital part of the world.

And I would think again, if I were you, about the amenability of the Iranians to the Western concepts of cost benefit analysis that underlie the theory of nuclear deterrence. After all, these are people who sent 15 year old kids out to clear minefields with their feet, armed only with AK-47s and a plastic key to heaven. These are people whose president publiclly dreams of a global cataclysm that will usher in the era of the Mahdi - the Islamic expected one. Their value system is not Western, and it would be a tragic mistake to think that they would employ the same calculus that we do.

Try to get out of your bushbred bubble, and figure out that the whole world doesn't look like Mt. Issa, Queensland.

sunisle

There is nothing that is typical of Israeli supporters. That statement together with your comments about every Zionist and his dog certainly do no credit to yourself.

Could you bring yourself to consider that the Israelis are trying to defend their rights to a tiny patch of land that their exceptionally hard work has converted from a poor producer of food to a land which can feed far more people than it could when they found it?

And could you consider just one teeny bit that the continuous Palestinian attacks on Israel may make it impossible for the Israelis to let their guard drop.

Or that certain nasty elements in the Arab world might just be exploiting the Palestinians for their own benefit. The very people who could have been offering them hope and a chance of a happy life if they spent the money on agriculture rather than missiles.

Ted,

I read a transcript of what the Iranian president actually said in Arabic. As I read it he is OK with Jewish living in Palestine as it was before 1948 and not 'nuking everyone' as you claim.

Although I find his statement backward, I can't help equating his comment to Israelis who are opposing a Palestinian state and just ok with 'Palestinians living in Israel' or 'ship Palestinians to other Arab countries'.

I don't think we can disagree on the danger of a nuclear Iran, but Israelis need to take a look inside too.

Peace,

Sunisle:

Pappe has failed as a historian, and as thus as a source for serious debate.

Efraim Karsh of the University of London cuts Pappe's "The Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict" to shreds. He demonstrates that Pappe willfully gets it wrong on:

A) the ratio of forces during Israel's war of independence;

B) whether Zionist leaders colluded with King Abdullah of Jordan; and

C) the claim that Zionist forces adopted a pre-meditated strategy of ethnic cleansing in 1948.

Karsh writes that Pappe's provides nothing more than "a synthesis of previously published [anti-Zionist] writings on the topic, making no original archival discoveries." And since Pappe freely admits that his work is more influenced by his ideological beliefs rather than an objective search for fact, Karsh notes that he violates "all the tenets of bona fide research in his endeavour to rewrite Israeli history in an image of his own devising."

Pappe has also continued to provide unstinting support to Teddy Katz, despite the fact that the former MA student was forced to retract his tale of an Israeli massacre when challenged in open court. When Karsh's indictment is added to Pappe's behaviour in the Teddy Katz affair, it becomes clear that is is not a serious scholar, but rather a shoddy propagandist of the far left.

'The Bible has nothing to do with this. And neither does the Arab league.
Posted by Neocommie, Wednesday, 18 October 2006 11:41:49 AM'

Neocommie

The bible is the root cause of the problem. I agree it should be dumped along with all those pesky UN resolutions. Especially that original one 181. Ted won't agree though.

The Arab League is an organisation the diseminates Arab views. It also acts in Arab interests. I wonder why you think it should have nothing to do with suggesting a peace solution in a dispute one of it's members has with Idrael occupying it's territory

So, sunisle, what’s happening with Arabs of Palestine you & Co call “Palestinian people”?

I presume it depends where they live in.

Israeli Arabs enjoy all advantages western democratic principles offer, have their representatives in “alien country's” parliament, sex when they want, where they want and who they want with, by any way they want, travel a world, study at universities-as local and worldwide, and live their lives as much rich as they can afford.

And to my understanding, correct me if I am naive, they are happy in Israel and support "fighters for freedom" under a pressure of peers because they naively suppose having more under a banner of Islamist rulers-who? Arabian Christians of Palestine?

Arabs over “green line” are hostages of Muslim from around a globe politicians, of whose clinching to power at national levels demands instant image of an enemy, to distract their poor hungry subjects from their own problems, by mastering new un-provoked attacks at the Jewish State from Lebanon as most recently, and instantly denying their “Muslim brothers and sisters from occupied Palestine” a possibility to naturalise inside their own political entities too often artificially created decades ago by a known colonial master too many in Australia still worship.

However, one could meet in the UN hallways much more “oppressed Palestinians” employed at different levels of international organizations than the Jews from around a glob, Israel inclusively, and this impression is applicable for an Australia-based local enterprises surely.

Special for Marilyn Shepherd.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1159193478190&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"Human Rights Watch condemned Hizbullah on Thursday for using cluster bombs on an estimated 113 occasions during this summer's war, according to research performed by the NGO's investigators."

The source is irrelevant to the truth of the article. It is or is not a true report from HRW.

"HRW spoke to people in the Israeli Druse village of Mughar whose family members - civilians - were wounded by Hizbullah's cluster bombing, as well as with Israel Police officials."

Hmm....

KEITH - if you agree to dump the UN along with its "pesky resolutions" I'll take the deal. The United Nations is a failed institution that does far more injury than good. It has the reverse Midas touch, anything with which it comes into contact turns into excrement.

And back to the original topic of this thread, this from Ha'aretz:

"HAMAS READYING FOR WAR WITH EXPLOSIVES, ARMS arms

By Amos Harel

Hamas wants to create a "balance of terror" with Israel in the Gaza Strip, in order to deter the Israel Defense Forces from making a major ground forces incursion into the territory, IDF officers have concluded on the basis of the organization's greatly accelerated munitions acquisitions over the past few months.

Since the beginning of the year, more than 20 tons of explosives, anti-aircraft missiles and antitank missiles have been smuggled into Gaza.

Senior IDF officers told Haaretz recently that Hamas is working to improve its offensive capabilities, with an emphasis on Qassam and Katyusha rockets, while at the same time establishing a solid defensive position in order to prevent the IDF from entering built-up areas within the Strip. By increasing the range of its missiles, the deadly force of their warheads and above all, by using high-quality blast explosives, Hamas hopes to heighten the threat to the northern and western Negev from the direction of Gaza

If Hamas succeeds in improving the rockets in its possession, it will be able to store them for months, as opposed to just days, as it does now. That would enable the organization to fire massive salvos at the Negev for days at a time during periods of escalation, as Hezbollah did in northern Israel during the second Lebanon war.

Arms smuggling is also continuing. Recently, Hamas took possession of a shipment of dozens of Russian Konkurs (AT-5 Spandrel) antitank missiles. These relatively precise missiles have a range of 4.5 kilometers, similar to those used by Hezbollah during the war. IDF officers believe that Hamas will try to smuggle in hundreds more."

Am I prescient, or what?

I heard today that Hezbollah has used cluster bombs against Israel. Reported by Human Right Watch.

No mention of this here yet :)

Illan Pappe can never been described as "failed"- each year there are young people who leave his classes and know that Palestinians are equal human beings to themselves; this is a huge achievement in a country that has such a superiority complex toward the indigenous people. I view anyone who helps others become better human beings as successful.

And, Ted Lapkin, just because you say a writer says something, does not make what they say true...that's what propaganda is all about.

And, I'm still waiting to hear why Edward Said is a "fraud"!

The bottom line is that the colonialist Europeans did what other colonialists have done in the past...pretty horrific crimes toward the indigenous people. HOWEVER, Israel is still doing it....nearly 60 years on...and the IOF gets more brutal each year. I cannot understand how the parents of the young people in the IOF rationalise making theri children into thugs who brutalize a weaker people...oh yes I can; it's the old South Africa syndrome; they view the indigenous people as inferior and therefore not deserving as themselves.

Yeah, Sunisle, when the Brits forcibly outlawed slavery in Egypt and the Sudan, that was a horrible violation of the indigenous people's inalienable right to own each other as chattel.

My favourite story in this regard comes from 19th century India, when Sir Charles Napier outlawed "suttee," the Hindu practice of immolating live widows on the funeral pyres of their dead husbands. When a delegation of locals petitioned Sir Napier rescind the ban on suttee, the British Commander in Chief in India responded as follows:

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

I'd say we could do with a bit of Napier-esque political incorrectness in our day and age.

sunisle

If you think that Hezbollah did not take part in war crimes against Israel just read some reports by Human Rights Watch.

Lebanon/Israel: Hezbollah Hit Israel with Cluster Munitions During Conflict

(Jerusalem, October 18, 2006) – Hezbollah fired cluster munitions into civilian areas in northern Israel during the recent conflict, Human Rights Watch reported today. This is the first time that Hezbollah’s use of these controversial weapons has been confirmed.

www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/18/lebano14412.htm

Lebanon/Israel: U.N. Rights Body Squanders Chance to Help Civilians

(Geneva, August 11, 2006) – By adopting a politicized resolution that looks only at Israeli abuses in the current conflict, the Human Rights Council undermined its credibility and wasted an opportunity to protect civilians in the region, Human Rights Watch said today. The council decided to establish a commission of experts to investigate deadly attacks by Israel, but took no action with regard to Hezbollah’s murderous abuses. The council concluded a special session today in Geneva.

www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/11/lebano13969.htm

Israel/Lebanon: Hezbollah Must End Attacks on Civilians

(New York, August 5, 2006) - Hezbollah must immediately stop firing rockets into civilian areas in Israel, Human Rights Watch said today. Entering the fourth week of attacks, such rockets have claimed 30 civilian lives, including six children, and wounded hundreds more.

Israel/Lebanon: Hezbollah Must End Attacks on Civilians

/www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/05/lebano13921.htm

Lebanon: Hezbollah Rocket Attacks on Haifa Designed to Kill Civilians

(New York, July 18, 2006) – Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm

More....
-HAMAS will NEVER recognize ISRAEL...
-FINAL POSITION...
-NON NEGOTIABLE.

According to Mahmoud Zahar, HAMAS FOREIGN MINISTER.

Israel is a "cancer" in the Middle East, Zahar continued, and added that Hamas would never recognize its existence.

"Israel is a growth on our land," he said. "It has no historical, religious, or cultural justification, and we will never establish relations with this 'cancer.' We will never recognize Israel - this is a final, non-negotiable decision," Zahar declared.

SOURCE Jerusalem Post
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193486516&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

There for the reporting must be suspect right ? :)

Notice his claim that Israel has no

Historical
Religious
Cultural

Justification to exist. But guess what.. it has the firepower.
So for those who reject the long Israelite history up to AD 70, and that inclusive of the time from Abraham to then... the religious as well as historical, and the cultural.... that just leaves the rule of might is right.

To use this argument is rather shallow, and would do nothing for the deeper morale of an armed force. True high morale comes from high MORALs and that in turn can only come from a justification of Israel's existence in terms more enduring than "we have bigger guns than you"

Such an army will dissolve into selfish greed and individual survival in the face of "pious young men who's trust is in Allah", so I urge Ted, and his fellow countrymen and women to look first to G-D in terms of 2nd Chronicles 7.14
Then.. to look at Ezra and Nehemiah and the rebuilding of Jerusalem..
and return to the Lord your G-D.

Lord, what idiocy! Let's completely get away from Israel's war crimes and talk about long gone incidents. I'm actaully reeling from the ususal slick propaganda methods that are so evidently missing from T.L.'s latest post. Has he been eating magic mushrooms or what?

As to "Logic"....and there is no logic in comparing the actions of Lebanese fighting back and the absolute devastation wrought on it by the invading nation. Are you so utterly uable to come to terms with Israel's monstrous crimes that you search around for something to make them seem like the victims. You need to see a shrink mate.

As to "sunisle"....and there is no logic in comparing the actions of Israel fighting back and the absolute devastation wrought on it by the invading Hezbollah. Are you so utterly uable to come to terms with Hezbollah's monstrous crimes that you search around for something to make them seem like the victims. You need to see a shrink mate.

Sunisle: Your memory suffers from an inability to recall what you yourself said a couple of preceding posts ago. You apparently forgot that you blathered on about the terrible crimes of European colonialism.

But as I point out, your simplistic portrayal of things fails to capture the full texture of historial events. British colonialism accomplished some very positive things as well. The story is not entirely white or black as you contend.

But then, I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised. Your inability to comprehend a more sophisticated world view is has been readily apparent for some time.

OK, T.L., you can have the last word after this post; you resorted to the old tactic of personal insult on your last one...must be closing time...at least it is for me.

And, I said that Israel was created by European colonisers- who haven;t done anything remotely beneficial to the indigenous people; my point was quite clear...THEY ARE STILL AT IT, AFTER ALMOST 60 YEARS!

I cannot be bothered to continue; you know what is happening to the millions of men, women and children under a brutal occupation...your fellow human beings. It is apparent that yuo have no wish to either talk about these human beings, who are the same as all human beings the world over; nor do you wish to discuss Israel's crimes toward them.

So, you have to live with your conscience,and it's goodnight from me.

sunisle

I cannot leave your last post unanswered. It is too simplistic to claim that Israel was created by European colonisers. Nearly half the Jewish population of Israel is not from Europe but from other Arab countries. At some one period this number was more than half. Some Jewish Israelis have been there for hundreds perhaps thousands of years.

This statistic is hated by the anti-Israel lobby.

It is also wrong to classify the Palestinians as more indigenous than the Jews. Besides which the Israelis gave the Palestinians the benefit of a democratis vote, which none of them had before, and created a Palestinian state in the occupied territories, which they never had before. The Gaza Strip and West bank wouild never have been occupied if the locals had not attacked Israel with the professed intent of destroying it.

THis is my last post to you Logic; unlike T.L., you truly do not know what is happening, but chose to have a whole race of people to hate rather than learn about the issue.

The statement you made about "the Jews" being as indigenous as "the Palestinians" just about says it all. THERE WERE ALL RELIGIONS LIVING TOGETHER IN PALESTINE BEFORE 1948. THAT WAS NOT AN ISSUE. THE EUROPEANS MADE IT AN ISSUE.

"The Jews" are not indigenous to Palestine; the Jewish people living there in 1948 are. The thugs from the Bronx who have come, along with other races who happen to be Jewish religion from around the world, have as much affinity to that land as my dog does. She perhaps has more so, as she is friendly and does not discriminate against people.

I realise that you will never understand and that it is easier to have a race of people to hate ,rather than learn. But, hey, racists are like that. You might just put your money where your mouth is and go see for yourself- but I doubt it.

And it's goodnight from him!

Eventually, sunisle, your dog understands the Israeli-Arabic issues more than you because it has got guts keeping quiet.

Australia is a political entity established by land-grabbing, where every nation is really equal from viewpoint of belonging to this land, where indigenous population was being simply exterminated to please mentors from London of the England of the time North American colonies walked away. Not originated from Britain are under-caste inhabitants regardless of generations they have been to Australia. Not speaking of more recent arrivals.

Do you, sunisle, intend to explain that the Arabs in Israel live much worse than non-Anglo-Saxons in Australia?

I try to believe.

sunisle

"The thugs from the Bronx who have come, along with other races who happen to be Jewish religion from around the world, have as much affinity to that land as my dog does. She perhaps has more so, as she is friendly and does not discriminate against people."

Who is predjudiced? Who is the racist?

Perhaps, even his dog is.