why does every topic on this forum that tries to discuss male/female issues in a sensible way devolve so rapidly into feminist-bashing? I feel like I am wasting my time on here, but some of the comments are so bad I feel compelled to offer some sort of response to them.

"At least one generation of women is regretting taking notice of Greer's loopey spin that motherhood should take second place to climbing the greasy corporate ladder and buying endless material possessions"

Actually, Cornflower, if you had read one of Greer's books, Sex and Destiny, she argues that our society has forgotten the value of motherhood and children. To quote: "feminists are often accused of downgrading motherhood. The accusation is ridiculus: motherhood hit rock-bottom [in our society] long before the new feminist wave broke. The wave itself was caused by the groundswell." (Sex and Destiny, p 13). I know some feminists advocated career before motherhood, but that doesn't mean they all did or that feminism is anti-mother.

I for one would love to be a mother one day, but as greer points out in her book, our society asks young women to make huge sacrifices in order to do so, making it an extremely unattractive option. Why do you think the more educated a woman is, the less likely she is to have children?

"Go back 50 yrs to when women took care of the kids and enjoyed the company of girlfriends and shopping and dad went out to work and had a beer with his mates."

OzGirl, why do you depict the fifties as some sort of idealistic paradise? the fact is things changed, and they changed because people (namely, women) were unhappy with them. To quote Susan Miller Okim, such a view rests on the assumption that "families operate with a benignity never expected of the marketplace or the sphere of politics" .

la1985

Erin Pizzey wrote that in 1971 she was told that her problem was her husband.

We have been told that marriage was a patriarchial construct to keep women oppressed!

We have beem told that fathers are not necessary to raise children.

We have been told that heterosexual women can not give 'consent' because of socialization.

In 1985 Lenore Weitzman published her infamous research which showed that a woman's standard of living fell by 73% and a man's rose by 42% after divorce. The only thing wrong was that her research was wrong. It took a decade or more before researchers were allowed access to her data and they found that she was WRONG.

Researchers who challanged her findings at the time were ignored, because Weitzman's findings supported the urban myths about divorced men.

As a result divorced men with children, loose between 50-85% of assests, then get lumped with child support payments calculated on pre tax income and paid out of after tax income. The end result is that the child support percentages are much higher. For example 2 kids it is 27% pre tax and 38% of after tax income.

Start looking at feminist research much more deeply rather than accepting it at face value and other glaring inconsistencies start to emerge, from advocacy research, to data being hidden, not collected etc.

Feminists became very good at appealing to the emotions whilst ignoring the facts. Exaggerations aimed at engaging an emotional response(flaming) to bypass logical and analytical discourse.

OZGIRL, firstly I don't know where I sold you out. If it seems that way it was unintentional.

On this subject I think I am taking a stand. A stand against the extremes. A stand that looks for win win solutions rather than lumping everybody who disagrees in one basket and condemming them.

I'm against extreme feminism but I also recognise that there have been some important changes brought about because of feminism. I'm pro equality in law and opportunity for men and women where we are all judged on our own abilities rather than perceptions about our agenda.

As a single dad I've seen the rough side of being judged on the basis of my gender. I have female friends who relate to me stories of businessmen who still want to talk to their husband when they are conduct business. While women are treated like that the need for feminism is not over yet.

I think that it is really counter productive to pick the fight with a broader group than the issue is really with. If men want better treatment in family law then we need to get the majority of people who are not personally involved on side and we are not going to achieve that by aleniating women who support the type of feminism that is about equality.

I don't recall a single poster on these threads who has posted in support of the man hating type of feminism but time after time all feminism is attacked because of the extremists.

I hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from better.

R0bert

So RObert...'a stand against the extremes' translates to sitting on the fence mate..a little bit pregnant if you like .
You tend to gel with the dominant women on OLO so I find it hard to take you seriously on this matter..anything you say is with a vested interest not to upset one of them, one in particular..ie Scout.
So in that light anything you say surrounding any issue with them even remotely involved cannot be taken seriously.

She took you to task for daring to have a joke with me and you bowed to her like a scolded child ..what is going on with that.?

She was out of line RObert ,you did nothing wrong.I stood up for you and you apolagised to Scout for my behaviuor , I thank you very much for that...I support you and you sell me out?
I really do get it RObert..I think I understand you as a man lot better since that episode..

Says a lot about you RObert....more than I care to contemplate.

Scout has a chip on her shoulder about men and she bought you to heel very nicely thank you.

Men need all the help they can get from the fallout that has resulted since feminism..ALL forms of it..if there is such a thing.
And if you cant find it in your own heart to support your own sex when they need you to ,your better off going back to your girly chats on Animal Welfare. Absolutely no offence meant to ANY of the girls there..they are doing a wonderful job... this was said to illustrate a point.

OZGIRL, I'll take up the off topic comments in the general area later when I get more time.

On this topic I've made posts regarding the dissing of men in the media. Not a lot because as usual this kind of thread has turned into a pool of feminist bashing rather than a serious discussion of the problems associated with the negative portrayal of men in the media. Not much point in putting a lot of effort in once threads get like that.

If standing up for men or not sitting on the fense requires a completely one sided unconsidered stand then count me out.

The fence has it's merits and gives a better overview than down in the trenches.

R0bert

Sitting on the fence also makes one an easier target, so let me take a shot.

Men not wanting to upset anyone, disappoint everyone. These are the paternalists in cahoots with the feminists. Self declared moderators in political correctness oblivious to their role in aiding stalemates and spreading apathy.

To them, rules are more important than the game. They would rather let their own team down than break some rule, imagined or real, just or just plain stupid.