dee: "Who's the abuser?"

Israeli POWs:1
Palestinian POWs:9,599

Israeli political reps abducted:0
Palestinian political reps abducted:27

Israelis killed between 28/6-13/7:2
Palestinians killed between 28/6-13/7:97

Israelis injured 28/6-13/7:4
Palestinians injured between 28/6-13/7:242

Israeli shells/rockets etc between 28/6-13/7:710
Palestinian rockets:127

"Israel controls 1/10th of 1% of ME lands. Its enemies control the other 99%": Ah, the generic Arab argument - ie Palestinians=Moroccans=Yemenis. About as meaningful as Croats=English=Swedes. And who controls the remaining 9/10ths of the 1%?

And please tell us which Arab (note Arab)leaders "have declared on occasions too numerous to mention to count that their aim is the utter destruction of Israel" and when.

WHAT are you talking about, Bernie Masters, speaking of

”Similarly, MichaelK believes that criticism of Israel's behaviour is anti-Semitic, yet he gives no basis for such an accusation. I interpret hIs anti-Semitic claims to be just as racist as those that talk about Arabs marrying their cousins.

Shame on all of you who resort to race-based accusations to sustain their argument. I suggest you all go back to Pierre Tristan's original article and debate the points he raised about Israel's response being falsely justified in the name of self defence “?
(Posted by Bernie Masters, Monday, 17 July 2006 8:52:31 PM)

Maybe, you should contact one only Jewish member of Iranian parliament to hear his speeches of local Iranian Jewry support for politics of their president both in nuclear and Israel-ralated areas.

Or, maybe, you belong to those few who marched this days in Israel demanding to stop a war on Hezbollah?

Surely, they need some trip to these areas of Libanon.

Strewth - 'which Arab leaders hve declared that their aim is the utter destruction of Israel'

1. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1251789

3. Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani declared that the Muslim world could survive a nuclear exchange with Israel - while accomplishing the goal of obliterating the Jewish state. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/14/10132.shtml

4. TEHRAN, Iran Oct 26, 2005 (AP)— Iran's hard-line president called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and said a new wave of Palestinian attacks will destroy the Jewish state. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1251789

5. NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza – Israel's evacuation of Gaza is .. the beginning of the destruction of the Jewish state, senior Hamas leaders said this week .. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45859

6. 'We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims.' – Mahmood Zahar (Hamas leader)

7. ‘We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors ... blessing be he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew.' - Sermon broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, August 3, 2001 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf25.html

8. 'This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.' — Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, May 15, 1948

9. 'The second objective is the elimination of the traces of the 1948 aggression, by the means of the elimination of the State of Israel itself…' — Mohammed Heikal, a Sadat confidant and editor of the semi-official Al-Ahram, February 25, 1971

10. 'Our position is clear: all of Palestine. Every inch of Palestine belongs to the Muslims.' - — Mahmoud Zahar, senior leader of Hamas, Quoted in the Jerusalem Post, November 14, 2003

11.'By Allah, perhaps not in my lifetime, but you will live to see the Israelis flee from Palestine.' — Al-Quds Al-Arabi Editor-in-Chief Abd Al-Bari Atwan on Arafat's comments to him regarding the Oslo agreement ANB TV, February 16, 2006

Regretably, have run out of space.

Strewth,

Here is a sample of the ‘Arab’ leaders, both now and historically, that have made such statements (I have deliberately chosen to rely upon Keith’s favorite source of Authority). There are several such statements in each of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

And in fact the vast majority (if not all) of these organizations has preached the destruction of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Palestinian_militant_groups

Keith,
Thank you for your enlightening and thoughtful contribution to the intelligent debate, truly if you study real hard, for a real long time, one day you will become a fully fledged halfwit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms

The UN, Syria and Israel, regard this part of the world as being part of Syria. However, the point is moot, as it is part of the territories controlled by Israel pre 1978 (blue line), and as such is validly part of Israel for the purpose of Border Security. The only government seeking to claim it is Lebanon, which provides Hizbollah with the excuse they need to carry out cross-border raids:

http://www.10452lccc.com/eliasenglish/elias.Salloukh%203.9.05.htm

Although it must be noted that according to the UN, Syria and Israel, the relevant UN resolution 425 (& assorted others):

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000618.sc6878.doc.html

That being so, I fail to understand your continued preoccupation with this area?

Sarcasm tinged with contempt, sure, but try not to impart the eyecatching tinge of idiocy. Or would you suggest that either the UN or Syria are Israeli stooges?

As to the forced eviction of all Arabs from the mandated area, by Israel in 1948-9, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab

also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

As to Palestinian Media outlets:

http://www.palestine-pmc.com

http://www.bitterlemons.org

I also heartily recommend the following site, as providing a surprisingly (given its past performance) balanced view of the current situation:

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

The meaning of my previous post, only for you, is that the second is a website maintained by and on behalf of descendant's of survivor's of the massacre.

Inshallah

2bob

Self defense is a natural right.

You may find photos on this site disturbing but its real time photos by Lebanese civilians:

www.fromisraeltolebanon.org

Can someone still call this 'self defense'?

Thanx Dee and 2bob.....

and.. If I may say... GAME...SET...MATCH.

Conclusion:

DEFEAT
DEPORT
DISPERSE
ABSORB.

Harsh, but ultimately compassionate.

Given those statements quoted by 2Bob and Dee, does Strewth actually believe that the 'right of return' would mean anything other than the actual outcomes listed in many of those statements "Destruction of the State of Israel" ? I mean..c'mon.. do you ?

Such destruction would be both military and demographic.

Once populations increased, we would have

Same Location
Same People
Same Attitude
Same Outcome

as this:

Genesis 13

[5 Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents. 6 But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great

And quarreling arose between Abram's herdsmen and the herdsmen of Lot.]

Yep..its that simple, and human nature has not changed.
At that time, Abram took the humble path and gave Lot all he wanted.

How much did LOT want ? welllll..simple..as per his name... he wanted THE LOT. Hmmmm this attitude sounds rather familiar and up2date.

BUT GOD gave it back to Abram.

Lot became a low life scumbag, and put all his chips on the black, but the ball landed on red.