Perhaps Israels assault on Lebanon is designed to provoke the 'silent majority' of decent peace-loving Lebanese into demanding that their government get rid of Hezbollah and its like once and for all.

The actions of Israel are of course perfectly just. There is only so much shelling/rockets launched from a country that can be ignored. Lebanon must be held accoutable for what happens in their territory, even if that means the killing of large numbers of the 'Peace-Loving Silent Majority'. Just as Israeli citizens have been murdered over the last 6-7 years by Hezbollah rocket attacks lauched via Lebanon.

So far, only Hezbollah leaders have been targeted by Israeli 'surgical strikes'. I would not be suprised if this was expanded to include Lebanese political figures. Israels rhetoric would certainly not exclude the use of Nuclear WMD if Damascus or Tehran overstep the boundaries.

A firm committment from Beirut to never again allow paramilitary organisation to operate from their territory should also be demanded by Israel, as well as an assurance from Tel Aviv that under no circumstances will Israel ever again negotiate with terrorists for prisoner exchanges.

This is a move Isreal should have done years ago.

You've got my vote Narcissist - and so too does Israel.

Well written, Peirre, I agree with just about all you say. As a person with Jewish ancestry which I'm ashamed to admit to when Israel behaves the way that it is at present, the reality is that, until there is a solution to the Palestinian problem, there won't be stablity in the Middle East. Of course, Israel's ambitions to a secure and peaceful homeland are justified but only if the millions of Palestinian refugees have their legitimate ambitions to sovereignty accepted and acted upon.

Having been in the US recently and met a number of Americans at an international scientific conference, my belief is that most Americans are scared witless by their impotency in solving the world's political problems. Interestingly, the view that US fundamentalist Christian groups are as radical in their world domination beliefs as are Muslim extremist groups such as bin Laden's murderers is starting to take hold in the USA. Sadly, the 2008 US presidential elections may be the earliest opportunity for a resolution to the ongoing Israel/US versus Palestinian/Arab disputes to arise.

Bernie
the phrase "Solution to the Palestinian problem" is one of those all too easy to say types, that are alike "Lets find a theory of everything" to put it into you own scientific realm.

There are many possible solutions, lets list them in order of probably effectiveness, with 1 the most probably and the higher number the least.

1/ Genocide, kill them all. (morally repugnant, but workable.)

2/ Defeat, Deport, Disperse and Absorb all those who were removed from current Israel in the compulsory land acquisition in the interests of a cohesive Israeli State. i.e. those in the 'camps', where most of the militancy arises.

3/ Let them all return from the camps, to previously owned land, throw the Israelis now living there into either other countries or give them a water bottle and tell em to wander the Sinai for a few decades.

To me, number 2 is the most effective and compassionate and even workable.

I draw your attention to the foreign policy of 3 ancient kings.
1/ King Shalmanezer V of Assyria who invaded the Northern kingdom of Israel in 722BC
Policy= Exile and dispersion.

2/ King Nebachudnezzer of Babylon in 586 who invaded the remaining kingdom of Judah.
Policy=Exile and Dispersion.

3/ King Cyrus of Persia. 539BC.
Policy=Restoration and Tolerance.

Now, here is a quiz.. 'which' one of those policies actually achieved its goal of removing the 'Jewish problem' ?

Clearly, that Northern Israel dissappeared from the pages of history and is now dispersed in many countries including Iran and Afghanistan, genetically and historically verified, supports the 'Exile and Dispersion' model.

As soon as the well intentioned kindly King Cyrus who had recently joined the Greens and Democrats parties returned the Jews to Judah, they immediately had another 'Jewish problem'.

So, I argue passionately on the basis of history, that
Defeating
Deporting
Dispersion and
Absorption

-is the only workable model for a solution to the 'Palestinian Problem'.

It worked for Shalmanezer and Nebachudnezza...

People can rave on and rant about "International Law" till the Cows come home, it won't change fundamental human nature.

Good_Article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

IMO, if Tel Aviv is hit by Syrian/Iranian missiles, Syria & Lebanon should both be hit (WMD's preferably). Syria because they have by their actions, whether by killing Lebanon's previous anti-Syria brigade, their support of both HAMAS & Hezbollah, or their continued supply of weapons, seem to be trying to reinvigorate the Lebanese Civil War. In fact it is my firm belief that Israel is caught on the sideline of a Syrian power play, designed to prop up the Syrian government, both at the expense of Israel & Lebanon. Israel does not exist to prop up the Lebanese government, therefore, if the outcome of the powerplay is that it is harmed, because it is incapable of preventing it's territory being used to target Israeli cities, then so be it. The Israeli government currently (as a democracy) has an overwhelming mandate to stop the shelling/rockets. Unfortunately for Lebanon, they are stuck between Syria and Israel, and Syria will have its way with Lebanon, unless it overreaches, which is only too likely.

BUT, Syrian or Iranian overreaction will not save Southern Lebanon, but it may save the rest.

Inshallah

2bob

Lets face it.It is just more Islamic Extremism cum Terrorism.I am on the side of the Israelis, and even more so when the Great Thug Ahmadinejad and his cronies are speaking openly about the total destruction of Israel,purely because of the violence and general approach as is documented in their belief system.

What else can the Israelis do?

There is one common denominator in all of this, and until they have the brains and civilisation to correct it, then it will just go on and on. All this b/s about Islam being a religion of peace is just that,b/s.

Isnt it interesting that we had some Lebanese Islamicists parading down the streets of Melbourne to protest about what is happening, but nothing at all was said about the Mumbai bombings,perpetrated by some Islamic nutters.Yet again

A recent cartoon in our ‘West Australian’ speaks reams concerning today’s political truth in the Middle East as one Lebanese says to the other as a long column of tanks cross their border, guns blazing, . warplanes above.

“We’re lucky!”

“What do you mean ‘lucky’?” says the other.

“Imagine what they’d do if we’d captured more than two Israelies?”

The above pretty well says it, the Israelies are being pestered by the Palestiners, but not much different than frustrated natives fighting for their rights in colonial times, like the redskins gaining a few rifles and still trying to attack a far superior military force - and as beknown of history still able to capture and kill the occasional white soldier.

But we never read or hear about an oversize military force moving in. The big problem is of course that modern technological means of retaliation can be so severe - in fact as aptly shown in the cartoon to the point of stupendous ridiculousness. Already for the taking of two of their soldiers, the Israelies have rendered the main Lebanese airport unuseable, as well as most other
military establishments.

Like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut as the old saying goes, but it remains the same. As also has been the same ever since the US has protected Israel as a tiny country or group of special people that had to be protected at all costs. But overdone, so very overdone in the Middle East where both the US and Britain have more mercenary interests, hegemon, and contraband in the shape of oil, especially in Iraq and Iran who also have the world’s best quality oil, as well as the world’s easiest to recover.

Historians and social scientists know all about it, as do journalists, but as reported in last week’s Guardian, US neo-cons have been given free reign in the media to whitewash the crimes of empire, and as what is happening in the Middle East today is only the carrying on of the crimes of empire, a situation that has not changed, but only got worse, hidden either by immoral craftiness or by very careless management by our leaders pertaining to the true meanings of freedom and liberty.

The Israelis whom we were so passionate about giving a go in the Middle East after their genocidalisation in Nazi Germany, have now spoilt themselves in the Middle East with their US-backed arrogance, pepped up not only with US supplied planes and tanks as shown in the cartoon but also with two hundred nuclear-capped missiles all ready to go.

Why this was all allowed by America, with the Arabs pretty well unarmed, and a meek United Nations standing by, will certainly have future historians in a huddle.

Graphic descriptions will be all part of the play, a depiction of desperate Jewish families not so loved by Britain who foresaw future trouble in the Middle East between Jews and Arabs, but America and most Australians ready to agree to settling the long wandering Jewish families back into Israel, their long Promised Land. Certainly the Arabs proved resentful, as the British predicted, starting to drive the new Israelis out. But not for long the Israelies already prepared with planes and artillery flown in, and after two short wars, the Arabs were beaten both by lack of modern weaponry and Israeli determination.

Unfortunately, for future Middle East peace, the strong power position of a US-backed Israel, has now placed her in a position from an Arabic point of view like a red-backed spider with her nuclear sting able to protect herself against all comers. It is no wonder that Iran could desire nuclear artillery

The Israeli's have massively over-reacted and are using propaganda to justify their desire to squash any resistance to their domination of the Palestinians.

I would have thought the lessons from their last war efforts against organised Arab world resistance would have sobered their drunken-like militarism. Have they forgotten how they retreated through Sinai in the face of a superior Egyption effort? Have they forgotten how Hezbollah successfully pushed them out of Lebanon?

Seems to me the invasion and re-occupation of Gaza, the detention of freely elected Government members and the killing of civillians in Gaza are violations that are being obscured by the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the attacks on civilians and civilian targets throughout Beruit and Lebanon. World opinion was turning against them in that mess they helped create.

I support the Europeans stance over this blatant militarist opportunism. It is an over-reaction and it is unsupportable.

We should all fear that when the tables do turn and if the Israeli's are really threatened they will use their WMD. No-one can reasonably support that senario.

Bushbred. Yes the Iranians are interested in acquiring Nuclear weaponry to counter the Israeli ownership of the same. There is one big difference though. The Israelis, over the last 30 years have never used it. The Iranians though, have said that they will wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

By the way, the Mad Thug believes that he has been sent to prepare the way for the return of the 12th Mahdi,which will be preceeded by chaos, and the destruction of Israel, so that their Ummah in the Middle East is complete.

This screwball also believes that he is able to communicate with the 12th Mahdi by tossing notes down a well in the city of Om.

It wasnt so long ago that the then PM of Malaysia, Maharthir, was giving speeches describing the Israelis as monkeys, who get others to fight their wars. I wonder what he thinks now. I thought they were quite capable of fighting their own anyway.

On the subject of Malaysia, which of course is a Islamic state, which supposedly tolerates other religions, well so far this year they have bulldozed 3 Hindu temples.

Me thinks the Israelis have decided that enough is enough and we have to make a stand.The rest of us would do well to take note.

Stephen Green of the US army got drunk, took 4 or 5 drunken mates into the house of a 14 year old Iraqi child, raped her, shot her, burnt the body and slaughtered her parents and 6 year old sister.

Israel ordered Lebanese civilians to leave the south so they could blow it up and slaughtered 15 children as they were running away.

Each and every death has been counted with the numbers in the 100's in Palestine and Lebanon and in the 20's in Israel. Israel spends $12.5 billion on arms, the US has sent $210 million in jet fuel to keep up the killing.

The rest of the area only spend a few million a year on arms with Syria being the worst with $1 billion. It is said that some of the weapons are coming from Iran - well who the hell is supplying Israel and who the hell is itching to blow up Iran?

The same self-righteous, moronic hypocrite who had to blow up Iraq due to WMD that didn't exist, the same hypocrite supporting the murdering thugs in the new Afghan government (see Paul McGeough in the Herald on Saturday) and the same snivelling moron who got a resolution against Korea in the meantime for firing off a few dud rockets.

The sooner Bush the moron is gone the better off the world will be.

As for the constant insistent support of Israel - who gave them the right to collectively punish the entire population of Israel and the Gaza for the crimes of a few?

"The irony . . ."
Pierre Tristam begins with "The Irony . . ."?
Who cares about the irony of it all.
Bodies are being bown up, families are being smashed, buildings are being levelled, thousands have no homes and have lost relatives and their homeland.
This is the trouble with the "modern" person they have no emotion and have lost theri humanity. They have no caring for life and other people.
Who bloody cares about "irony" when life is being snuffed out.
Go and get some emotion and write about people and theri life and death and why people suffer.

Well said Marilyn

Damn if you do - damn if you don't. To keep or not to keep the Palestinians (Hezbollah). That was the question that Lebanon could never answer.

Lebanon has paid a dear price in the past and is repaying it again today for harbouring The Palestinians that no other country wanted (except maybe Jordan).

In this close proximity neighbourhoods, it is impossible to separate the sheep from the goats; friends from enemies.

When the coward terrorist leaders cohabitate with civilians the casualties are unfortunately multiplied.

Lebanon had many years to think this over. She knew very well that these terrorists were up to no good inside their southern borders.

Israel has always been very clear with their non-negotiation with terrorists’ policy. No one likes to watch people die in this barbaric fashion, and a country destroyed, but hey this is the ME.

The only solution is total eradication of one party or the other : Israel or all the Islamic neighbours. Anything in between will always be potentially explosive.

This takes us to the US presence in the not too distant Iraq. I don't think this will be the best time for them to get out of there. With Iran and Syria ready to interfere, it won’t be long before we could see more Islamic countries helping to get rid of their number one enemy target: Israel. Not one Arab country really cares much about the poor Palestinians or Lebanese for that matter.

If anything it is now a great opportunity of the western alliance of the willing (and the not so willing) to reconsider their positions to what could well be a very long and bloody confrontation.

There won’t be peace in that region until Christ comes back.

what a terrible prime time war we are about to have.

this flare up will not die down, the middle east restructure has been happenning and will continue to do so for better or worse.

Arab nations will stick together to the end, but will be anihilated as they simply cannot punch out of their weight division.

Get out of Israel if you dont need to be there is all i will say, staying there now is inviting turmoil in your life.

GOD DAMN RELIGION, our last link with early civilisation, ruining lives again.

Shame on all of you, Muslim, Christians and Jews. Get out of the stone age and drop religion like a hot rock, take the noose from around your neck, we are an interconnected world now that does not need it.

If you need support get a shrink, if you want to give to the community volunteer, if you want security of going somewhere after you are dead dont worry we all do, but you will get there alot quicker if you want to face off against someone who does not believe what you do.

Look around you at your places of worship, realise they are just another entity, they were built by humans, like you.

In a few hundred years when religion is not necessary in an integrated functioning society people will look at you just like we look at the egyptians of yesteryear, or 2witches being burned at the stake. And oh theres mecca, i am sure Allah wants some of his followers to die every single year. For what?

Take a hard look at society and realise the problem in most conflicts derives from segregated people like you all. You and your brainwashed beliefs are the problem. Do anything you want in the name of God, the almighty scapegoat.

coach, you must really hate Palestinians. You obviously think they are all members of Hezbollah.

If you had done some research, you would have realised that Hezbollah is a Shia militia, and that Palestinians are in fact Sunnis, Druze or Christians.

The sad thing about blind hatred is that it is always built on the foundations of ignorance.

It says alot about Israel's actions that its support on these forums is largely limited to the fruitloop brigade.

A big part of me agrees with you realist. I try really hard to accept and respect religion, mostly because the majority of inhabitants of this world are religous and if I condemn it, I feel I am being elitist.

But on days like today I just hate it. I hate the certainty of purpose it gives people. I hate the way it makes run of the mill land grabs into explosive global conflicts. Probably most of all I hate the fundamentalists who use it to hate others, Boaz and Coach included.

I try to be tolerant, I really do. But I am imperfect, and on this day, my tolerance has worn thin and my hate for religion has prevailed.

Maybe tomorrow will be different.

Coach,
Your ignorance of the realities of Lebanese and Middle Eastern history is exceeded only by the hypocrisy you display in simultaneously,loudly and self-righteously trumpeting your religious beliefs whilst failing to practice them .

"And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:5-6)

1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.(Matthew 7:1)

Narcissist, you should change your name to 'zionist'. I read you post carefully as at first I thought you were being satirical/ironic but sadly, it seems not.

I am neither pro-israeli and pro-arab in assessing this conflict overall, but like most people in the outside world I think that Israel's bombing of Beirut as retaliation for the kidnapping by a terrorist group in Lebanon of 2 soldiers is a huge over-reaction that Israel should not be allowed to get away with.

I see that you use 'surgical strike' in quotes but say nothing to disavow this cruel and ridiculous term. The only thing surgical about the bombings is what is occurring in Beirut's hospitals now to save the Lebanese civilians injured as collateral damage. You call the reaction of Israel justified - how do you justify the missile strike on the mini van of children fleeing to safety?

I think the Lebanese government would very much like to be rid of Hezbollah. That is easier said than done in a country still recovering from a 20 year civil war. No doubt, the governments of Pakistan, Ireland, Egypt, Thailand, Indonesia and many other countries would also love to be rid of terrorist organisations in their midst,but have not been able to. Punishing those governments and bombing their cities would not be the way to go.

Not only is Israel's tactic likely to backfire badly on its own citizens, but it will severely test the loyalty of its main ally and supporter, USA. In the war on terror, the Bush Administration does not need the Israelis stirring up more trouble and hatred of westerners in the arab world.

The rest of the world should not be hostage to Israel's security.

It is hopeless, The undewrlying problem is the behavioural problems of the arabs who have generation after generation married their cousins.
Anyone who has had to deal with the behaviour of handicapped children as I have will notice the similarity in unreasonable attitudes when something does not go their way.

It seems to be caused by, amoungst other symptoms, a lack of the ability to understand the position of other people.

Now before you dip your keyboards in vitriole here are a few facts;

The UK Midlands Heath Service did a study and found that those who engaged in cousin marriage had 13 times the chance of having genitically harmed children. A UK parliamentary committee has recomended a ban on cousin marriage which is mostly engaged in by moslems in the UK.
Source BBC documentary about March this year. Also links from BBC web site to Parliamentary and National Health service.

Local; The NSW Health Dept sent a genitist to Auburn hospital to investigare a high rate of genitic defects in maternity unit.
She found that the problem was almost entirely restricted to mothers who were married to their cousins.
This item was about four years ago and I have forgotten the source.
It was refered to early this year in the state parliament.

Sorry if you don't like it, but thats life so live with it !

in 1947,palestine was roughly 80% moslem, 15% jewish, 5% odds and ends.

how is it that a jewish state existed in 1948? because jewish terrorist gangs drove out the british mandate government with bombs and gunfire, while the american government smiled and encouraged them- harry truman needed a big jewish turnout in the '48 election.

the terrorists were then folded into haganah, the official jewish army, and together they beat the feeble military of neighboring arab/moslem states.

the 'moslem terrorists' of today are the sons and daughters of the people of palestine who were disposessed of their land in 1948. they are simply fighting the zionist invaders as they have done since 1948.

they are entitled to do so. the zionists are the evildoers here.

Is this the same peace-loving Israel that carried out terrorist bombings in Egypt in the 1950s, that carried out the world’s first plane hijacking and invented the car-bomb, that used it’s retaliatory Unit 101 to massacre over 100 innocent civilians in Qibya and that deliberately and provocatively shot down a Libyan airliner in 1973?

The same Israel that launched a deliberate missile attack against the USS Liberty, that helped Maronite Christians kill around 3000 civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, that carried out the Qana massacre, that (in the manner of Saddam Hussein) has failed to comply with numerous UN resolutions?

The country that shipped armaments from the USA into Iran and continues to brutalise civilians in illegally occupied territories where it has outkilled the Palestinians by a ratio of 3 to 1?

Israel is as much a state-sponsored terrorist state as it claims its neighbours to be, and with the added complicity of the USA, probably more so. Their Hollywood/ New York PR machine is always busy. One side has “troops”, the other are “gunmen”.

Unlike Hussein, who had a beware-of-the-dog sign but no dog, Israel has it’s own WMD but no sign. They would not have developed their bomb if they were not prepared to use it.

Middle Eastern politics is not the simple black-and-white scenario that is being portrayed in the Media. There are significant problems and failures on all sides and Israel is certainly not totally guilt-free.

Simplistic one-eyed analysis provides unworkable simplistic solutions and this is the main cause of terrorism in the world today.

As far as I’m concerned, we should just stand back and watch because they all deserve each other.

Always stays the same, nothing ever changes, Middle East disputes seem to last for ages. Always stays the same, nothing ever changes, and this English summer rain seems to last for ages.

I'm in the basement, you're in the sky, I'm in the basement baby, drop on by. I'm in the basement, you're in the sky, I'm in the basement baby, drop a rocket on me as you pass by.

Always stays the same, nothing ever changes, Middle East disputes seem to last for ages. Always stays the same, nothing ever changes, English summer rain seems to last for ages.

I'm in the basement, you're in the sky, I'm in the basement baby, drop on by. I'm in the basement, you're in the sky, I'm in the basement baby, drop a rocket on me as you pass by.

Hold your breath and count to ten, and fall apart and start again. Hold your breath and count to ten, start again, start again ... Hold your breath and count your step, and fall apart and start again, start again, start again, start again, start again ...

It always stays the same, nothing ever bloody changes, and this Middle East dispute will just go on for ages.

Where's the Placebo when you need one?

PK,

I am not a Zionist, nor do I see this conflict in terms of religion A vs religion B.

For over six years, Northern Israel has been attacked, almost daily from Southern Lebanon by numerous means including NK51 Grad and Katyusha type Rockets. An extensive civil defence network has been established to protect targeted towns, with perhaps 1 minutes notice of an impending strike. Think of the old WWII Russian Rocket Lauchers, the back of a truck style and you get the picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K51_Grad).

Of particular concern is that these rockets are now capable of indiscriminate killing at a range of 40KM. Even more worrying is confirmation that the Sa'ar5 Missile Boat was hit by a Iranian crewed C-802 anti maritime cruise missile (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Israel-Attacked-Ship.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). There are believed to be only 60 (oops 59) of these outside of China, and they are all thought to be in Iran.

Further more, there is more to this than the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers. During the raid on 12 July,

"Hezbollah's military wing launched a barrage of 9K51 Grad rockets and mortars on Israeli military positions in Lebanese Shebaa farms which is ocupied by israel forces previously, apparently as a diversion. A force of infiltrators then moved 200 meters into occupied Shebaa farms, attacked two armoured IDF Humvees patrolling the border on Shebaa farms near the Israeli village of Zar'it with anti-tank rockets, killing three soldiers and taking the remaining two in captivity to Lebanon's territory. Hezbollah has named this operation "True Promise."

"The IDF confirmed that two Israeli soldiers were captured by Hezbollah, and identified them as Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev. An Israeli Merkava Mark II tank was damaged by a 300 kg improvised explosive device as it attempted to pursue Hezbollah into Lebanon. All four of the crew members were killed. Another Israeli soldier was killed when he came under heavy fire during an attempted recovery of the bodies from the tank. In all, 8 soldiers were killed, 2 captured and 5 wounded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis

Bazz - an article re cousin marriage:

Gene test push for married cousins
By Erin O'Dwyer
May 28, 2006

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gene-test-push-for-married-cousins/2006/05/27/1148524933481.html

'DOCTORS working with immigrant communities in Sydney's western suburbs hope human genome mapping will address high rates of infant death and birth defects in children born to first cousins.'

'A study at Auburn Hospital found almost 20 per cent of pregnant women admitted to the maternity ward in one year were married to their first or second cousins.'

'The research found babies were three times more likely to be born with birth defects and six times more likely to die in the womb or in infancy than babies in the general population.'

Westmead Children's Hospital geneticist David Sillence said the issue of marriage between blood relatives was extremely sensitive in communities in which it was practised, including Lebanese, Turkish, Iraqi, Iranian and Pakistani....

According to the World Table of Consanguinity on cousin marriage:

1-3% in the West
20-50% in Muslim countries

Thanks Dee for the update.

It raises a very significant question;
Would you want the children of these marriages to control missiles with nuclear weapons ?

Irfan

Neither of us can be all that bad! At last we agree. :-)

Keith

To the bleeding hearts,

The shia lebanese openly support the actions of the hizbollah terrorists, as the majority of those in Gaza support the actions of HAMAS. In addition to which, the overwhelming majority of israeli's support Olmert in the current crisis. This is the impact of democracy on war. If you choose to vote for a party which will precipitate open war with your larger, incalculably better equipped and vengeful neighbour, the current crisis is perhaps the best mechanism by which to cause you to consider more carefully who to vote for.

For those who suggest Israel stole the land, they did not, it was given to them by the UN, after a vote, and the majority of the land in question was owned by the British Crown, most of the rest was owned by absentee landlords (especially in Lebanon, Syria and Turkey). The average Palestinian lost nothing, as they owned nothing, so how the hell were they dispossed? Additionally, those who suggest that Israel started the violence would do well to read the history of the country, particularly regarding Al-Husseini and the massacre of the innocents in Hebron.

Finally proportionality? What is Israel to do, remove the guidance units from their weapons & delivery systems, and fire precisely the same number of unguided weapons per day as teh lebanese & HAMAS do? How utterly ludicrous. War is very similar to a street race, run what you brought. Israel bought (& built) better equipment, their neighbours did not, they are currently paying the consequences.

Inshallah

2bob

I am not surprised for reading mostly anti-Semitic responses to Israeli attempts of securing a peaceful existence and calm borders.

Recent events once again eventuate an influx of who-is-who locally, where media has got enough space for factually pro-terrorist barking by professor in Arabic Studies at the Australian National University, well sustained next day by Mr. Terry Lane on the same “The Age” page but nothing more truthful provided.

It is not a wonder at all that the Jews in this Anglo-colony are being denied degrees at the universities and employment, professional especially, for what they are and that is what Israel is always guilty for, which is Jewishness.

Responses to articles like this by a certain group of misfits, reinforces the evidence that the rabid quest for violence and war is the true design of monotheism. It advances the fact, we're in for a hell of a religious war, effecting us all in the end.

Its gone past whose to blame, whether this escalates or is just another wave in the coming tide of violence, who knows. On the news tonight jews in Australia were out celebrating on the streets, waving Israeli flags. So it wont be long before we have the two most despotic god factions facing of here, fully supported and supplied by the other faction.

I'm not sure how much I support those with dual citizenship, who use Lebanon as their home and Australia as their money pot. Actually if your stupid enough to go to places that are constantly have conflict, tough luck. But those who are visiting should be got out as quickly as possible. The time may come soon when it may not be safe to rescue fools who put themselves in danger.

Still those of us who aren't afflicted by this destructive disease, can but hope we come out of this in the end. What saddens me is there's many innocent people who suffer, its refreshing the amount of care and sympathy for them displayed by followers of god.

I see no difference in any of them with regard to terrorism, they all invade everyone as soon as they get the chance.

Boaz says,
“Defeating
Deporting
Dispersion and
Absorption “. Isn't that what you ilk have always done with every indigenous peoples in the world, as god invaded with lies and violence. You deserve your lies, deceit and your wars, but no one else does.

Coach, “The only solution is total eradication of one party or the other : Israel or all the Islamic neighbours. Anything in between will always be potentially explosive.”

I agree, lets start with the violent invaders, Israel

BOAZ_David

If the ancient Israelis had been dispersed the Jewish faith would have been lost and, wait for it, there would have been neither Christianity or Islam.

Without Jesus or Mahommet there would have been only Judaism and the Eastern religions. None of these go strongly after converts as each recognises the validity of the other.

The problem with hitting violence with more violence is the scars get deeper and deeper down through the generations. Blood pours, and someone - it is felt - must pay....

Fathers kill other fathers because their fathers killed, and their grandfathers killed.... and now ... their sons and future sons too...

The cycle of violence will continue until we (humanity) learn to communicate...

Communication needs to be two-way, as does the act of "empathy" through listening.

How I wish this conflict was dealt with back there.... when it needed to be... with constructive resolution protocols-and assistance of the so called "peace-makers" in the West ...

I fear the middle-east is out of hand... I fear the Syrians will now have their corruption (under-mining Lebanon's current government) gratified as the Lebanon civic mass turn to Syria's man-power to defend against Israel’s savage human cost in the name of self-defence.

I pray for the mothers and children, and the non-violent direct action - of the students of Lebanon, whose efforts so recently had done so much - as they united and risked everything - to improve their governments conduct by demanding vigorously, good governance and internal "transparency ".

Imagine how defeated they must feel. Tell me this won't imprint depravity - how do we ever expect these "non-violent students" to stay calm... amist this sort of distruction and power-play?

Thank U Ms M, as you have "shepherded" the thoughts of many of us.

So let me get this right.

The discussion is on the invasion of Lebanon and its effect on the region.

And all dee has to offer is the rate of cousin-marriage amongst couples with females giving birth at Auburn Hospital.

Thanks for your contribution, dee. It certainly helps me understand the geo-politics of the region (not!).

Or perhaps dee is telling us that slaughtering civilians is permissible if the victims are in-bred.

Seriously, I wish journalists from the Daily Telegraph would visit these forums. They'll find plenty of extremist fruitloops to report on.

Maybe Bazz is the product of kissing counsins too. That would certainly explain his/her laughably retarded attempt at identifying the underlying problems in the region.

My Collins English dictionary defines racism as: "the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiorority over others".

I interpret those posts which refer to people marrying their cousins as being racist, since the authors of those posts appear to believe that such cultural behaviour is hereditory and incapable of change, except over evolutionary time. In turn, they support the current heavy handed actions of Israel in Lebanon.

The truth of course is quite the opposite. People can choose not to marry their cousins, just as a person of Jewish descent such as myself can reject the Jewish religion or choose to criticise Israel for excessive aggression.

Similarly, MichaelK believes that criticism of Israel's behaviour is anti-Semitic, yet he gives no basis for such an accusation. I interpret his anti-Semitic claims to be just as racist as those that talk about Arabs marrying their cousins.

Shame on all of you who resort to race-based accusations to sustain their argument. I suggest you all go back to Pierre Tristan's original article and debate the points he raised about Israel's response being falsely justified in the name of self defence.

Irfan, the sad thing about this dispute, its that its once again
religious nuts fighting religious nuts in an unwinnable war, so
the majority will suffer. It seems that people only learn through
pain, very sadly.

Its not unreasonable to expect, that if the majority of Lebanese
want to live peacefully, they will prevent their country being used
for firing rockets on Israel. Sure Israel is overeacting, but when
did an Arab country respect weakness?

Sadly, taken to its ultimate conclusion, the Islam/Jewish war has
no winners, just losers. Buffett is correct, we have developed weapons far more powerfull, then our ability to use them sensibly.

So lets say Israel was cornered by Muslim fanatics and in response
turned Mecca and Medina into big holes in the ground. Which way
would you Muslims face to pray then? What would be left of your
religion? Would Islam really have won anything?

Religious fanatics of any description are a threat to all of us.

Its time for moderates in Lebanon to reign in their fanatics, or
the ultimate price will be a lose lose for everyone concerned.

Amazing again how the self righteous non religous people are happy to blame the world's violence on religion while they condone the murder of innocent unborn children by the thousands.

Have not people woken up to the fact that the problem lies with the heart of man. Some of the vicious posts of some so called non religous and religous here just confirm that. It seems to me that the forum has turned into a points scoring event. The anti Bush/Howard/religous (pro Israel) people versus the athiest/green religous people (pro Arab) or at leat anything anti US.

The Bible describes accrurately how the heart of man is wicked. Only Christ can change a heart whether Jew, Arab, athiest, Catholic or Protestant, Buddist or Hindu.

I suppose by blaming religion, governments or anything else it stops you from asking yourself uncomfortable questions.

well said Irfran, I'm glad you could say it, I didn't wish to dignify those posts with any sort of response.

Runner, you are clearly confused :)

A child is not a child until it has been born. Similarly, your
bible must be wrong it seems. The heart is a humble pump.
We can remove your heart and replace it with a baboon's heart,
your personality will not change. The emotional centres of
the mind are located in the limbic system, something that the
people who wrote the bible, were not aware of.

Relying on religion for your understanding of the world is
clearly dangerous!

A little more intelligence and a little less religious rhetoric
on these threads, would be highly appreciated

The hopes generated for the locals with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and of Turkish rule after World War One have vanished. Rights to ownership, of that place then, were promised to two different groups - though these are "brothers". Jews, Lebanese and palestinians - they are all of "Middle Eastern appearance". No "racial" disparity exists here. The current murderous rampage is Cain and Abel revisited.
The religious fundamentalism of "an eye for an eye" and "may your tribe increase", from both sides, pervades the conflict. And external manipulation adds to it.
Lebanon's forests of Cedar, those the pharoahs journeyed from Egypt to harvest, have long gone. Now, already-scarce water supplies dwindle; the land becomes increasingly debilitated, and cost of energy for maintenance of society escalates. All this, while resources have to be distributed among an increasing population.
The combined numbers for Israel, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Territory, currently stand at about 15 million, of which Israel makes up some 46 per cent. The projected numbers for 2025 are 22 million, with Israel making up 42 per cent.
The God who watches over the children of Moses, of Christ, of Mahomet, - is he just enjoying the fireworks? Has he set a Brunnhilde-type Wagnerian self-immolation (nuclear variety) as the finale for his triumvirate of chosen people in that land? If not, it is going to be a very long-drawn-out affair.

Thanks Yabby

I agree that relying on religion for ones worldview is dangerous. Just as dangerous as relying on ones own small minded view of things. However relying on Jesus Christ seems a far better option than any other I have ever heard of or seen. I wonder what it is however in His life or teachings that make His followers so dangerous. Please spare me a history lesson of what many of His so called followers have done in His name. A similar list for for produced for athiest/communist/facist etc.

Sorry if you can't understand what many do in regard to the heart of man. Whether you want to call it the emotional centre of the mind (sounds a lot more complicated) or the heart of a person.

I am sorry that as a believer in your eyes I disqualify myself due to my lack of intelligence. The problem I have is that I am yet to find a more intelligent and humble teacher than Jesus Himself

Well, doesn't everybody think this is terrible news for world peace?

Anyone who is looking for a less gloomy view of things should read the comment thread on Last Superpower, where arthur thinks that this exchange signals the endgame - the Israelis are getting ready to leave the West Bank to the Palestinians.

"Israeli internal morale is greatly improved by shouting at Iran a lot while having to accept the ignominy of actually being defeated by the Palestinians."

and

"Meanwhile the lesson that Israel has no strategic options is being drummed in. They can't occupy Lebanon, they can't get Syria to occupy Lebanon, they can't occupy Gaza so what CAN they do apart from pointless bombardment and even more pointless sonic booms?"

http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/805094250462

Gosh Dee, muslims in Auburn have a high birth rate. Catholics in Ireland and Italy used to have high birth rates and my own grandfather sired 11 children from two brood mares here in good old OZ. And? Your point?

When I contribute to these forums all I usually get is abuse so it is nice to have a couple of people agree with me for a change.

I forgot Palestine, because of course the Israeli government is collectively punishing three sets of people aren't they? Do Israeli mums and dads really want Palestinian kids murdered by their government or Lebanese kids? I don't think so - kids are kids everywhere.

Now look at the mess these three nations are in today and imagine we are in Iraq. In Iraq we didn't even have the vapid excuse of soldiers being taken during the course of their duties did we?

The high moral ground for the coalition of the killing is buried in Fallujah, Haditha, Najaf, Kabul, Baghdad, Kandahar and even in Woomera, Baxter, Nauru and Manus Island where we locked up Iraqis and Afghans fleeing the butcher of Bahgdad that the AWB were paying to stay in action and the Taliban who were supported by the US.

Yep, I reckon the three great war criminals can babble until the cows come home but answer me this.

Who the hell on earth will listen to them while the people are slaughtered?

Hey Marilyn.....YOU abuse me on a daily basis :)

What I find suprising, is how vehemently you rail against the US, the '3 war criminals' who are seeking to control murderous regimes, who produced large numbers of refugees, yet.. you are remakably silent in your condemnation of Sadaam, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas.

Is there a reason for this ?

At least in the UK, US and AUSTRALIA, you are free to gather sufficient support and .. wait for it.. you.. yes YOU.. have the legal and political right and potential to CHANGE the government.

If your arguments had sufficient merit and were persuasive enough, your own support would be growing. No one is going to kill you, send you to a 're-education' camp, nor torture your family because of your political ideas. They won't even slowly carve off your head and video tape the whole ghastly event, because of your skin color or religion, or nationality, doing humanitarian work on behalf of the people.

Although, if you start making plans to assassinate the Prime Minister, or align yourself with the Socialist Alliance or 'Resistance' among others who have in the fine print of some of their web site material the idea that the 'capitalist borgoise' must finally be overthrown by 'any means',....then don't be surprise if Asio knocks on..or knocks down your door one day.

Here is the picture

1/ Sadaam and his ilk produce the refugees.
2/ You condemn your own country for not accepting more. While paying lip service to the 'evil' in those regimes.
2/ The Coalition seek to destroy the 'root cause' OF the refugees.
3/ You condemn them for doing so.

Do you see the philosophical problems with this view ? I think everyone else CAN.

It appears you are either politically naive (as I've suggested elsewhere) or regard us as simple minded political and social bimbo's who cannot see things as they really are.

BoAZ,
You’re right - up to a point.

However it was the West that created “Saddam and his ilk” and allow them to flourish.

It’s also a fact that the USA and UK share the policy that the Middle East must always be kept destabilised and it’s their actions (or inaction) in this arena that feed the fires of terrorism.

If we help create the problem, perhaps we should shoulder some responsibility for the consequences.

The IDF responds to the commands of a democratically elected government, who’s first responsibility is to protect its own national security.

How many Lebanese voted Hezbollah to a position of authority and responsible for national security?

How many Lebanese asked the Syrians into their country and how many demonstrated just last year for them to leave Lebanon?

Some might suggest the Israeli response to Hezbollah is “disproportionate”. All I would say is, the Israeli government is not only defending its national territory but is defending its right to exist against the salivating demands of a bunch of terrorists who have deliberately embedded their militarily offensive units in residential neighbourhoods.

If it were Australia under attack, I would demand nothing short of what the Israeli government and IDF are doing by our government and ADF to in the protection of our national interest.

Oh and the pleadings and faux outrage of those who suggest the Israeli response is inappropriate, keep up the rhetoric but change the name of the antagonist to Hezbollah and Hamas who both believe that Israel should be erased off the face of the globe and who both care less about their citizenry than the Israelis care for their citizenry.

If someone was hell bent on removing me from the face of the globe, I am damn sure I would put up a disproportionate and inappropriate fight to survive too.

Pierre, You put the cart before the horse. Hizbollah & Hamas are merely epiphenomena, products of what's been going on in this area for over a century now. Context is everything. You picked up the ball with your reference to the "sheer madness" of what Israel is up to in Lebanon (& Gaza incidentally), but then dropped it. That madness didn't just appear out of thin air in 2006. It is as old as and derives from the madness of the political Zionist project itself, essentially the idea that you can forcibly impose a foreign, 'Jewish' sovereignty on an indigenous population and, sans any attempt at acknowledgment, reconciliation and accomodation of that population's rights, get away with it. Madness! The ethnic cleansing of 78% of Palestine in 48-49 - madness. The 56 agression against Egypt - madness. The brutal and unending occupation of the Palestinian territories since 67 - madness. The stab at regime change in Lebonon in 82 - madness. And now the madness of the carpet bombing of Gaza & Lebanon. What we're seeing now is the madness of an Imperial Israel mindlessly brutalising a subject people and their neighbours - a sort of Narcissistic Personality Disorder writ large.

Spot on, Strewth. A bit of historical context. Narcissist/Zionist and the usual collection of Christian loony-tunes, take note. The creation of the state of Israel was a piece of UN folly from the 1940s that was born partly out of a sense of collective guilt about the holcaust and the failure of WW2 allies to have seen it coming and do more to prevent it. It is and has always been a flawed approach and no end to conflict is in sight. The 'war on terror' especially as taken to Iraq has done nothing but inflame hatred of Israel and its perceived protectors among western nations.

I say it again, the whole world should not be hostage to Israel's security.

The meek will inherit the earth? Get a grip.

Once more, this is not 'collective punishment' it is WAR. Please feel free to point out to me how exactly any democracy is supposed to respond to incessant artillery & rocket barrage when it's citizen's overwhelmingly support military action, then point out where that is different from what Israel is doing at this moment. There are no innocent's involved, even those that did not support HAMAS or Hisbollah at the ballot box, as this is the price of democracy. Majority rules, comprehend? The lebanese & the Palestinian's chose to allow Hizbollah & HAMAS to remain armed, and for them to continue to bombard Israel. That being so, given that there was no declared war, they broke International Law. If you refuse to be governed by International Law, equally you cannot rely on it's protection.

Israel, unfortunately for some on this forum, has the right to defend itself under international law. The defence in this instance, requires nothing more than the implementation of the disarming of both Hizbollah & HAMAS. Nobody else can or will act, and Israel is their target.

The way things stand at the present time, I suggest that Israel is fully justified in launching a pre-emptive nuclear strike at both Syria and Iran. The Middle East would not explode, the Saudi's and others would prefer both no longer existed. The willingness of people to become targets for Israeli weapons would, I am sure, decrease to an all time low.

Inshallah

2 bob

Col Rouge and 2bob you are spot on.

I repeat, for those who seem not to want to comprehend.

If someone was saying repeatedly that they wanted to wipe me off the face of the earth, then I sure as hell would be using whatever force I had to neutralise their idiot threats.

The fact that these threats emanate from the mouths of complete religious nutters would make me even more determined.

As a writer in todays Australia said.

If the Arabs were disarmed there would be peace. If the Israelis were disarmed there would be a massacre.

Irfan – please read again my post – very slowly - and point out where I may have said anything derogative or racist.

My knowledge of the ME and particularly the Palestinian / Israeli conflict is beyond your guessing.

Your contribution to this article is next to zero.

Is this because you have nothing good to say about your Muslim brothers and sisters in the ME?

BTW I don’t recall any Christian Palestinian blowing themselves in a Jerusalem café or shopping mall. Coincidence perhaps? Or is their something inherent in the muslim blood going back to their unresolved Abrahamic inheritance: God giving the land of Israel and all its surrounds to his nation the Jews and not the Arabs?
___________

And for the historical ignorant people who are trying to divorce religion from the current ME war – get a life or better still open a history book and start reading – you might learn a thing or two.

It is refreshing to read a couple above of comments regarding Jesus and religions.

Jesus was a radical revolutionist and anti-religious establishment. He certainly did not start a new religion in Christianity. It was the religious priests who condemned Him to death for blasphemy.

Please refer to his teachings and prove me wrong. In the whole New Testament you will not find any legal rules. jesus was the fulfilment of the mosaic law the same law that Muslims and Jews are still so attached to.

Religion is man-made and the cause of all evil.

[Finally we agree on one point Alchemist].

In Mathew 24 Jesus prophesised:

6You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Jesus has never predicted peace in Israel – so get used to it and repent before He comes back and find you caught up with the wrong crowd or religion

• Pierre Tristam ..."Force, that appetising recourse of the post 9-11 era, has been every crisis' most-lethal-seductress. So to suggest that Israel is looking-for-a-solution here, to suggest that it's playing-for-peace, is to-be as-cynical as-those-imbeciles who claim Israel is being 'humanitarian' by raining leaflets-of-evacuation-warnings before dropping its tonnage-of-barbarism in civilian zones. When rogue goes against rogue, and a rogue-in-chief stands by from his Roman-themed-colonnades a Potomac away, a just-solution is not only not being sought; it's a virtual impossibility".

• Bushbred ..."Historians and social scientists know all about it, as do journalists, but as reported in last week's Guardian, US neo-cons have been given free reign in the media to whitewash the crimes-of-empire, and as what is happening in the Middle-East today is only the carrying on of the crimes of empire, a situation that has not changed, but only got worse, hidden either by immoral craftiness or by very-careless-management by our leaders pertaining to the true meanings of freedom and liberty. The Israelis whom we were so passionate about giving a go in the Middle-East after their genocidalisation in Nazi-Germany, have now spoilt themselves in the Middle-East with their US-backed arrogance, pepped-up not only with US supplied planes and tanks, but also with two hundred nuclear-capped missiles all ready to go. Why this was all allowed by America"?

• Marilyn Shepherd ... "It is said that some of the (Hezbollah) weapons are coming from Iran - well who the hell is supplying Israel and who the hell is itching to blow up Iran? The same self-righteous, moronic hypocrite who had to blow up Iraq due to WMD that didn't exist, the same hypocrite supporting the murdering thugs in the new Afghan government and the same snivelling moron who got a resolution against Nth-Korea in the meantime for firing off a few dud rockets. The sooner Bush the moron is gone the better off the world will be. As for the constant insistent support of Israel - who gave them the right to collectively punish the entire population of Lebanon and the Gaza for the crimes of a few?

• Keith ..."The Israeli's have massively over-reacted and are using propaganda to justify their desire to squash any resistance to their domination of the Palestinians. I would have thought the lessons from their last war efforts against organised Arab world resistance would have sobered their drunken-like militarism. Have they forgotten how they retreated through Sinai in the face of a superior Egyption effort? Have they forgotten how Hezbollah successfully pushed them out of Lebanon"?

• Leo Braun ..."Without any doubt there is an indistinguishable continuum-malignancy in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Gaza. So let's us attempt to explore it, for instance as one is faced with the-evil-event, resembling elders-of-zion intrigues pattern. Some may charitably to label it, as an-error-of-judgment. Then as such an-inherent evil's devised stratagem becomes profoundly entrenched fascist-ideology, amazingly some careless sucker heads still to-doubt, waver and continue to think that there may-be-some-other explanation. As miasma engulfed dill-flock carried-on in-a-chit-chat across-the-threaded-topics, limited solely to the issues of moral corruption by the jellyback spiteful pollies, while still doubting as to the common-denominator ... conscious intent by the global-echelon-masters. However as elders-of-zion prima-facie blueprint resembled now unmistakably Israeli junta adhered policy, openly acknowledged by US totalitarian regime as a fully-conscious-choice, that has been adopted worldwide by the-political-elite-allies of so uniquely shared genome within the 'rule-by-the-best', voted-in by the majority of the utterly deceived-world-populous ... at last the awaken minds from the protracted hibernation recoiled now to face the gigantic magnitude of the moral-bankruptcy afflicted world".

• John Pilger ..."Yet we need-not to-accept any diabolically plagued hegemony, if we recognise that there is-a-real-choice once in-a-life-time to-make a change for the children of better tomorrow via earnest peoples opinion. Now striving all over-the-world, definitely as never before. Make no mistake, it's an-epic-struggle. Where alternative (if we fail-to-speak about it right-now), is-not just-a-conquest of far-away-countries, it's the conquest of us. Of our minds, our humanity and our self-respect. If we to-remain silent, the victory over us is assured".

As to the diminished democracy exposé, please proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4625#47660

David Jackmann

I think you are very close to the mark. The occupation of the West Bank and those land-grabbing settlements are the crux of the problem.

I think democracy is closing in on Syria, Iran, Egypt and Israel... and faster than they all think. The Saudi's will hold our forever. They have history and Islam on their side. They deserve it.

Irfan – if you actually read the post, you would have seen that I was answering Bazz’s question on cousin-marriage within the Muslim world – does the truth bother you for some reason?

" ...perhaps dee is telling us that slaughtering civilians is permissible if the victims are in-bred."

Yes, perhaps there is some dire hidden meaning in your cornflakes too. Best example of putting words into someone else's mouth I've seen all week. This rubbish is typical of you Irf. I’m used to your absurd accusations, so I wont bother to respond, except to note that you are still leaping to giant assumptions and finding meanings that are not there. Its like a reflex action with you - the mildest criticism of Muslims or their beliefs triggers your victim mindset into immediate action. Where do you get this nonsense, because you certainly didn’t get it from my brief post.

"They'll find plenty of extremist fruitloops to report on."

Strange that you never mention the ‘fruitloops’ in positions of leadership in the Muslim community. Its a pity that you refuse to respond to reasonable questions (you have never anwered even one query of mine)- but its easier to play the poor put-upon victim, isnt it.

Dee, Irf doesn't read the posts, he reacts to the first two lines. Must be quite a drawback in his professional life. Perhaps that is why he is in the Liberal Party, for the moment (WHAT, the Liberal Party has branch stacking, isn't that the charge they level at the ALP at every opportunity).

The problem for some on this forum is that Israel has not adopted their cute multicultural society, or more precisely, has not sought to make Hizbollah or HAMAS feel sufficiently welcome in their society. The sticking point appears to be their avowed intention to destroy Israel.

Perhaps all the israeli's should just pack up and leave?

It is interesting, none appear to have any problem with Syria's stated position that if it is attacked for the actions of Hizbollah (it's proxy), it will respond and keep responding. Whereas Israel only responded to continued bombardment, exercising incredible restraint, after it was compounded by a military incursion into a disputed area of Northern Israel (for the idiot that called it Southern Lebanon, it ain't, it used to be Syria until 1973).

I foresee massive casualties coming out of the ground offensive. Israel will shepherd the Shia into Syria, but will use aerial cavalry (gunships) to interdict the Lebanese side of the Syrian border. I don't think they will have either the time or the inclination to discriminate between armed and unarmed civilians, and I don't care.

Inshallah

2bob

2Bob - "Irf doesn't read the posts, he reacts to the first two lines."

I notice that Irf is especially virulent when unpalatable facts like cousin marriage or the genital mutilation of females are mentioned. Apparently, anyone who is negative about Islam 'hates all Muslims' - I have been accused of this on several occasions. Yet when directly challenged to list the benefits and positives of Islam (as I have asked him to do approximately 5 times), he is silent. If Irf, as a Muslim, cannot list the benefits and positives of Islam, why does he ask it of others? Because its easier to accuse and play the victim than to admit that Islam has serious problems.

"Perhaps all the israeli's should just pack up and leave?"

This is what some people appear to expect and of course it will never happen. Its a waste of time to debate anything with people who think this way because the existence of Israel is a fact and it cannot be undone. From a rational point of view, Israel cannot sit still any longer, it must take action. If Hezbollah etc had definable Headquarters, no doubt the Israelis would target them, but since they work from home and hide among the civilian population, the IDF doesnt have much choice.

Perhaps more blame should be directed at the Lebanese government for tolerating the antics of Hezollah and co. Unfortunately, its always the little people who suffer.

dee: "Israel is a fact and it cannot be undone." Hm, but can't it clean up its act? Cease the carpet bombing of Gaza and Lebanon, rescind its apartheid legislation, withdraw from the Palestinian territories and the Golan Heights, admit responsibility for the Great Ethnic Cleansing of 48-49, facilitate the right of return of all Palestinian refugees, make amends to its victims and promise to behave from now on? Can't the abuser be reformed?

Why can't "the abuser be reformed?" As "Naif" as I am... I am with U Strewth.

Thank-You for being Up-Front, brave and so dammed CLEAR!

'Whereas Israel only responded to continued bombardment, exercising incredible restraint, after it was compounded by a military incursion into a disputed area of Northern Israel (for the idiot that called it Southern Lebanon, it ain't, it used to be Syria until 1973).'

It is a matter of dispute who actually 'owns' Shaba Farms. But one thing is not in dispute. The Israelis don't and they had launched military incursions into that area.
Syria did not always 'own' Shaba Farms. Originally it was part of the French Mandate.The UN allocated that stretch of land to the Syrians but both Syria and Lebanon acknowledge and argue it to be part of Lebanon. I reckon the bunch of misfits at the UN got it wrong as usual and I'd tend to align myself with the people closest to the 'action'. That's plain commonsense. Wouldn't you agree?

You would do better to read what's written and develop some little ability at comprehension of the points being made before you launch into unsubstantiated personal attacks. Especially when those attacks are directed at people who quite rightly are entitled to hold opinions different to your own.

Here are a couple of links that might give you a lesson in the very basic complexities of the situation in South Lebanon and Syria. It is simply written so you won't have to much difficulty in gaining at least a little balanced comprehension...rather than just blindly accepting generalised Israeli propaganda.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/lebanon/2002/1125rem.htm
Good background on the region.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740251.html
Yes this second Site is an Israeli perspective published on the front page of an Israeli publication and unfortunately for you it totally supports my claim.

Mate Stupid? Yep one of us has been a tad, but that's only because of ignorance.

Enjoy your reading and your opportunity to grow with wisdom

Imagine that Australia had lunatic Christians who fired rockets into Indonesia from Darwin and our weak Govt did nothing about it.The UN would be damning us as barbic ferals.

Syria,Iran and Hezbollah want to see Israel wiped off the planet.These religious nutters only get away with this foul behaviour becase the rest of the world depends upon it's oil.

It is time to develop nuclear and clean coal technologies and get off our oil addiction.

Let the Middle East fester in their religious ignorant hate filled barbarity.We don't need them

Strewth - <Can't the abuser be reformed?>

Depends on whom you regard as the abuser. Israel controls one tenth of 1% of Middle Eastern lands. Its enemies control the other 99% plus. Debate on this topic is pointless because Islamic leaders have declared on occasions too numerous to count that their aim is the utter destruction of Israel and that there is no room for negotiation of any kind. So what’s to debate? I don’t know how compassionate I would feel towards people who questioned my very right to exist and who would joyfully kill me at the first opportunity.

Hezbollah could always hand over the kidnapped soldiers and stop making attacks on Israel but the Hezbollah manifesto states:

"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated. We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity."

Does this organization sound open to any kind of negotiation? I don’t think so. Perhaps this is why Israel has lost patience – it’s impossible to live in peace with people who wish for your obliteration. Perhaps Israelis have simply stopped caring what their enemies think.

Keith,

Yes it did once belong to the French mandate. That is until they backed the Vichy/Nazi regime and lost out bigtime to 7th Div 2nd AIF in the second world war. In fact both of my grandfather's took part in that little engagement, 31st Bat'n, now Royal Queensland Regiment. Under the laws of war it then passed to British Control (as it was conquered, in no uncertain terms). I suggest that as Moshe Dayan led them into Lebanon & Syria, he had much greater ownership of them in 1973 than any Lebanese or Syrian claimant. (FACT: He lost his eye in the bombardment of Lebanon in the 2nd World War, while attached to the British Navy to point out targets).

As I am descended from my grandparents, does this mean that I have sufficient historical attachment to lay claim to this parcel of land (think MABO (No.2))? I'd rent it out to each side in turn, you beauty.

See the bizzare end's that come of invoking history?

Inshallah

2bob

Keith, while we are at it, you make the mistake of taking only one view of history.

Let us examine a particularly pertinent event in the early days of the State of Israel, Deir Yassin:

The unashameadly biased view adopted by Irgun, on the Etzel website:

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac17.htm

The equally unashamedly biased, but diametrically opposed view on the Deir Yassin Org website:

http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

Personally I prefer the historically accurate position that this event got out of hand, through a combination of ill-trained, inexperienced adventurer's on the Irgun side, vicious house to house combat, the use of high explosives (especially mortars & grenades) in a built up area, the continuing seige of the Jeuresalem road, the fact that many villages took part in such firing, and the fact that it was a defended village, with women & children left to assist the defender's. However, and whatever the truth of the matter, the effect of 100 deaths had an effect out of all proportion to the casualties caused. The villager's ran away, and were thus disposessed under the existing laws of armed conflict.

Israel is dropping pamphlets to prevent the recurrence of such a scenario, by advising people of the fact that they are coming and to leave. but, given the capacity of the enemy to stay in order to shield the fighters, I have a bad feeling that it will happen again. But, Israel has to act, and will act, if they stay many will be martyrs.

Inshallah

2bob

2bob

So what about Shaba Farms incursion by the Israelis?

Does your assessment of the unashamedly biased views propounded by the Israeli journalists of Haartz and blatant propaganda repeatedly ascribed to the Israeli military lead you to 'fess up' and accept you were completely wrong.
You will of course note that an unashamedly biased view of any Palestinian has been reported nowhere.

But of course you wouldn't need that would you...after all the Israeli's must be telling you all the truth you need for you to make your assessment. Of course you'd be able to claim you've based your assessment on an unashamedly biased but beautifully balanced view of history.

Balls!

And ultimately the crux of the problem is this. People such as youself continue make such statements about ownership through conquest and the laws of war. These stupidities are the basis of the Israeli dreams to occupy all of Palestine and the reason the Palestinians have been denied and are still being denied a Nation State.

Solve those two details and the mid east will soon find peace.

Perhaps you'd like to join entheuastically with David-Boaz and help champion his final solution to the Palestinian question.

Martin would be so pleased at the pair of you. He'd be cheering you on from his throne in hell. Your very decent Grandfathers would be spinning in their graves.

You should take a look at the map of Palestine after it was partitioned and compare it to a current map of the mid-east. That would give you another view to challenge your unashamedly biased view of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

This will help.

Note all Palestinians were expelled by the Israelis from the vast majority of the proposed Arab areas after the bitter civil war. Read also the independant views expressed. Hopefully it will open your eyes to the unashamedly biased historical land-grabbing antic's of the so innocent and defensively minded Israelis.

Sarcasm?...yep probably tinged with contempt too.

Dear Keith
much as I sympathize with your valiant attempt to reach some kind of 'just & fair' conclusion to this mess, -history is bigger.

Have a read of the events leading up to 1948, the various waves of Jewish migration, the Arab attitude to them, the battles etc...
Then, ask yourself regarding the partition plan:

"Would this REALLY have solved the issue" ?

If you answer in the affirmative, I have to re-classify you into the same basket of political naivity as dear Marilyn :)

Given that ALL of us live on stolen land, and that ALL of us maintain that land by FORCE (whether you call that force 'police' or army or the 'rule of law'...err.. thats OUR law)..its still maintained only by force.

It mystifies me that some of you bleeding hearts don't 'get'this.

My "Final Solution" is very much expressed in compassionate language. Yes, it DOES involve 'ethnic cleansing' to a degree, yes it DOES involve re-shaping the whole area, but think mate....think of the alternative.

All you are doing is condemning Israel=Bad, Arabs=Good+victims.

You seem also to neglect the massive expulsions and ethnic cleansing which partly PRODUCED Israel when Jews were driven by either fear or guns from surrounding Arab countries.

Bottom line, whichever side one argues, one can find 'injustice'....

Which of course leads to....'how' can we solve the problem by the best big picture means ?

I've made proposals, which I've also sent to Zionist organizations and the Jerusalem post, (in a more comprehensive form than posted here). But all I see from most of you is:

"Reverse History".. well ..good for one, good for all :) ready to go an live in a humpy while an Indigenous person occupies your farm or whatever ? If your not prepared to reverse YOUR history, then chill out on raging against Israel to reverse theirs.

dee: "Who's the abuser?"

Israeli POWs:1
Palestinian POWs:9,599

Israeli political reps abducted:0
Palestinian political reps abducted:27

Israelis killed between 28/6-13/7:2
Palestinians killed between 28/6-13/7:97

Israelis injured 28/6-13/7:4
Palestinians injured between 28/6-13/7:242

Israeli shells/rockets etc between 28/6-13/7:710
Palestinian rockets:127

"Israel controls 1/10th of 1% of ME lands. Its enemies control the other 99%": Ah, the generic Arab argument - ie Palestinians=Moroccans=Yemenis. About as meaningful as Croats=English=Swedes. And who controls the remaining 9/10ths of the 1%?

And please tell us which Arab (note Arab)leaders "have declared on occasions too numerous to mention to count that their aim is the utter destruction of Israel" and when.

WHAT are you talking about, Bernie Masters, speaking of

”Similarly, MichaelK believes that criticism of Israel's behaviour is anti-Semitic, yet he gives no basis for such an accusation. I interpret hIs anti-Semitic claims to be just as racist as those that talk about Arabs marrying their cousins.

Shame on all of you who resort to race-based accusations to sustain their argument. I suggest you all go back to Pierre Tristan's original article and debate the points he raised about Israel's response being falsely justified in the name of self defence “?
(Posted by Bernie Masters, Monday, 17 July 2006 8:52:31 PM)

Maybe, you should contact one only Jewish member of Iranian parliament to hear his speeches of local Iranian Jewry support for politics of their president both in nuclear and Israel-ralated areas.

Or, maybe, you belong to those few who marched this days in Israel demanding to stop a war on Hezbollah?

Surely, they need some trip to these areas of Libanon.

Strewth - 'which Arab leaders hve declared that their aim is the utter destruction of Israel'

1. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1251789

3. Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani declared that the Muslim world could survive a nuclear exchange with Israel - while accomplishing the goal of obliterating the Jewish state. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/14/10132.shtml

4. TEHRAN, Iran Oct 26, 2005 (AP)— Iran's hard-line president called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and said a new wave of Palestinian attacks will destroy the Jewish state. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1251789

5. NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza – Israel's evacuation of Gaza is .. the beginning of the destruction of the Jewish state, senior Hamas leaders said this week .. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45859

6. 'We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims.' – Mahmood Zahar (Hamas leader)

7. ‘We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors ... blessing be he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew.' - Sermon broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, August 3, 2001 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf25.html

8. 'This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.' — Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, May 15, 1948

9. 'The second objective is the elimination of the traces of the 1948 aggression, by the means of the elimination of the State of Israel itself…' — Mohammed Heikal, a Sadat confidant and editor of the semi-official Al-Ahram, February 25, 1971

10. 'Our position is clear: all of Palestine. Every inch of Palestine belongs to the Muslims.' - — Mahmoud Zahar, senior leader of Hamas, Quoted in the Jerusalem Post, November 14, 2003

11.'By Allah, perhaps not in my lifetime, but you will live to see the Israelis flee from Palestine.' — Al-Quds Al-Arabi Editor-in-Chief Abd Al-Bari Atwan on Arafat's comments to him regarding the Oslo agreement ANB TV, February 16, 2006

Regretably, have run out of space.

Strewth,

Here is a sample of the ‘Arab’ leaders, both now and historically, that have made such statements (I have deliberately chosen to rely upon Keith’s favorite source of Authority). There are several such statements in each of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

And in fact the vast majority (if not all) of these organizations has preached the destruction of Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Palestinian_militant_groups

Keith,
Thank you for your enlightening and thoughtful contribution to the intelligent debate, truly if you study real hard, for a real long time, one day you will become a fully fledged halfwit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms

The UN, Syria and Israel, regard this part of the world as being part of Syria. However, the point is moot, as it is part of the territories controlled by Israel pre 1978 (blue line), and as such is validly part of Israel for the purpose of Border Security. The only government seeking to claim it is Lebanon, which provides Hizbollah with the excuse they need to carry out cross-border raids:

http://www.10452lccc.com/eliasenglish/elias.Salloukh%203.9.05.htm

Although it must be noted that according to the UN, Syria and Israel, the relevant UN resolution 425 (& assorted others):

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2000/20000618.sc6878.doc.html

That being so, I fail to understand your continued preoccupation with this area?

Sarcasm tinged with contempt, sure, but try not to impart the eyecatching tinge of idiocy. Or would you suggest that either the UN or Syria are Israeli stooges?

As to the forced eviction of all Arabs from the mandated area, by Israel in 1948-9, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab

also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

As to Palestinian Media outlets:

http://www.palestine-pmc.com

http://www.bitterlemons.org

I also heartily recommend the following site, as providing a surprisingly (given its past performance) balanced view of the current situation:

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

The meaning of my previous post, only for you, is that the second is a website maintained by and on behalf of descendant's of survivor's of the massacre.

Inshallah

2bob

Self defense is a natural right.

You may find photos on this site disturbing but its real time photos by Lebanese civilians:

www.fromisraeltolebanon.org

Can someone still call this 'self defense'?

Thanx Dee and 2bob.....

and.. If I may say... GAME...SET...MATCH.

Conclusion:

DEFEAT
DEPORT
DISPERSE
ABSORB.

Harsh, but ultimately compassionate.

Given those statements quoted by 2Bob and Dee, does Strewth actually believe that the 'right of return' would mean anything other than the actual outcomes listed in many of those statements "Destruction of the State of Israel" ? I mean..c'mon.. do you ?

Such destruction would be both military and demographic.

Once populations increased, we would have

Same Location
Same People
Same Attitude
Same Outcome

as this:

Genesis 13

[5 Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents. 6 But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great

And quarreling arose between Abram's herdsmen and the herdsmen of Lot.]

Yep..its that simple, and human nature has not changed.
At that time, Abram took the humble path and gave Lot all he wanted.

How much did LOT want ? welllll..simple..as per his name... he wanted THE LOT. Hmmmm this attitude sounds rather familiar and up2date.

BUT GOD gave it back to Abram.

Lot became a low life scumbag, and put all his chips on the black, but the ball landed on red.

Hello Dee,
Your list is interesting, but the statements make my point.
They sound just like interlectually handicapped children who have behaviour problems.
(note not all interlectually handicapped children have behaviour problems)

There is an inability to accept for any reason what they want may not be available. They cannot accept that others may want something different than their wishes. They often are simply unable to share.
They can often be impossible to reason with. They just don't understand.

Next time you see an arab spokesman being interviewed notice that many of them do not listen to the question, they go of on a well rehearsed tantrum about how hard done by they have been. There are some noticible exceptions like the Palistinian Anna Asharbe. Probably got that name wrong. They simply don't answer the questions or just give a few words in reply and then launch into a long rambling speach.
If you have ever argued with a handicapped person you recognise the symptoms.

I am not saying they are handicapped to that extent of course but the behaviour traits are definately there.

If the rest of the world could understand this then maybe there would be some hope. It would be a major diplomatic exercise and I don't think that there are many that could undertake it.

Since I have recognised these symptoms and read of their cousin marriage customs I have given up all hope of seeing a solution.
BTW, cousin marriage was done for a good reason, to keep wealth and land within the family. Surprising however as rural people know all about inbreeding of stock. Perhaps they didn't think the same rules applied to people. It is a major failing of the religious hirachy that they did not forbid it.
Cousin marriage was not unheard of in England in the 18th and 19th century, Queen Victoria married her cousin.

Tweedledee: Silly me. Maybe I should have made myself clearer, and asked what exactly you meant by "the utter destruction of Israel" and for reputable and credible citations. When I asked you to name "which Arab leaders have declared that their aim is the utter destruction of Israel" this is what I got:

1)An Israeli propaganda site which took me to the Hamas Charter. No Arab leader within cooee. And if you like I could introduce you to the Likud Charter.
2)I couldn't find the quote on your post. The item however was about the Iranian Prez. I know they're probably all just persons of ME appearance to you, but Iranians are not Arabs. Furthermore, Ahmedenijad's alleged statement about wiping Israel off the map has, you'll be sorry to know, been debunked by Jonathon Steele in 'Lost in translation', The Guardian, 14/6/06.
3)Redneck US site complete with expose 'The Ugly Truth about Al Gore' and photo of neocon/redneck heartthrob, Ann Coulter. Another Iranian (NB not Arab) leader, Rafsanjani, clearly talking about nuclear deterrence.
4)More Iranian Prez. See 2) above.
5)American Zionist site quoting unnamed "senior Hamas leaders" re the Gaza withdrawal being "the beginning of the destruction of the Jewish state". Goes on to talk about "liberation", the resistance fighters' synonym for regime change. Is that what you mean by the "utter destruction of Israel"?

Past this point I find it futile to proceed. I'll leave you with a few points to consider:
a)Israel has been ACTUALLY wiping Palestine off the map since 1948. And is currently doing its best to utterly destroy the new Palestinian Government & Lebanon.
b)Political Zionism thrives on real & imagined anti-Semitism. It would have no rationale for an exclusively Jewish state otherwise.
c)Now instead of wasting my time with sus websites. Please deal with my point about the the Israeli abuser.

Hopefully, a no-man zone from Litany to Israel boarder could postpone Hezbollah & Co prospects substantially.

2bob,

'Thank you for ... you will become a fully fledged halfwit:'

So that will then enable me to personally attack, in simpleton terms, people who disagree with me?

No ... I prefer to remain a full wit... and place my own intrepretation on the things I read rather than accept blindly propaganda.

The incident at Shaba farms resulted in the capture of two Israeli soldiers. The conflict escalated from there into the unsupportable attack on Lebanon and Beirut. Not everybody blames the Palestinians.

Syria doesn't accept the Shaba Farms are part of it's terrirory... .

But you're missing the broader point. Whoever owns it it is not the Israelis! They occupy it. It is not part of Israel, never has been and won't be even though the propagandists say it is.

You'd recognise that.

The Israeli's were forced to withdraw from Lebanon by who and when?
Ahhh answer Hezbollah in 2000 and since Syria claims the area to be Lebanese territory ... well pray enlighten this fullwit, how was that Israeli patrol not an act of aggressive occupation...without using a halfwit's intelligence and use of logic.

But back to the full ramifications of the point you are missing. The conflict in the mid east is nearing it's end stage. It is now all about borders and ownership of disputed territory. You need a much broader view. The largest of Israel's neighbours have clearly defined borders and peace treaties with Israel. With the recent withdrawal of Syria and it becoming a less belligerent neighbour, with Lebanon rising to an attempt at democracy and peace, with the obvious steps towards the creation of a functioning democratic Palestinian State (Sans Arafat, thank all the Gods) and with the West becoming less supportive of all Israeli actions, the writing is on the wall for both the Palestinians and the Israeli's. Peace will arrive with just borders and recompense for refugee families. (And that bloody wall will be dismantled and those land-grabbing illegal settlements in East Jerusleum and the Westbank will be evacuated...with appropriate compensation.)

Keith

ps Obviously many other idiots share my views.

2bob

I admire the fact you reference Palestinian and Arab sites. I hope you do explore them at least a little. I am sure you will soon sus out the propaganda and hope that the content will give you a more balanced view in the future. (I recomend reading Israeli and Western media sites in the same manner.)

Strewth,

You are correct of course. Most people do forget about the peace treaties that Arab neighbours, with UN and US support of course to both their great credit, have wrung out of the Israeli's... Who remembers Hussein of Jordon or Sadat of Egypt?

How about a little historical perspective.

David Ben-Gurion, one of the father founders of Israel and its first Prime Minister, describes Zionist aims in his diary (21 May 1948) as follows, “The Achilles heel of the Arab coalition is the Lebanon. Muslim supremacy in this country is artificial and can easily be overthrown. A Christian State ought to be set up there, with its southern frontier on the river Litani.

"We would sign a treaty of alliance with this State. Thus when we have broken the strength of the Arab Legion and bombed Amman, we could wipe out Trans-Jordan, after that Syria would fall. And if Egypt still dared to make war on us, we would bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo.

"We should thus end the war and would have but paid to Egypt, Assyria and Chaldea on behalf of our ancestors."

Strewth -

Re 'Arab leaders'. What precisely is an ‘Arab leader’? The president of a country? The Vice-President? A prominent Islamic cleric? Don't the bosses of Hamas and the PLO count as ‘Arab leaders’?

‘probably all just persons of ME appearance to you,’

Yeah, yeah, we get it – only an exquisitely ethnically sensitive person like yourself can tell an Arab from an Iranian.

’The Guardian, 14/6/06’

Did Steel also debunk the statement by the Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani who declared that the Muslim world could survive a nuclear exchange with Israel - while accomplishing the goal of obliterating the Jewish state. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/14/10132.shtml.

But perhaps Newsmax is fabricating it and it doesn’t matter anyhow because Rafsanjani is not an Arab.

The Hamas Charter is published on an Israeli site, so it is not correct? Do you honestly believe that the quotes from Hamas and PLO leaders are fabricated?

‘wasting my time with sus websites’

My most profound apologies for wasting your precious time - does the term ‘self-important’ ring a bell? I suspect that if I had quoted the Arab Press (or El Guardian), it would be perfectly acceptable to you. I avoid Arab sites because they are very sus. You could search MEMRI for quotes but I guess they’re sus too.

'destroying new Palestinian government'

The Palestinians are doing fine all on their own.

‘Please deal with my point about the the Israeli abuser’

Your point is? I have not denied that Palestinian casualties are greater than Israeli ones. I too have read early Zionist writings, so I have never believed that Israel’s hands are clean. My original point was simply that Israel is in a position where she must react strongly. No amount of wishful thinking on the part of Muslims will make the Israelis pack up and leave. Therefore, the situation has to be dealt with in that frame of reality.

So instead of wasting my time with undeniable events that happened in the past and cannot be changed, why don’t you tell us your solution for the present situation?

Israel is under the microscope again for self defence, while Arabs in Sudan are slaughtering, dispossessing and mass-raping black Africans; setting fire and destroying their villages and have rendered 2.2 million people homeless. The world is so obsessed with Israel's "outrages" that it has sucked the oxygen from far more worthy plights. It seems that we can't investigate anything that shows Arabs as anything other than suffering victims.

Darfur is outrageously passed off as mere "tribal conflict", where Israel is held to impossibly high standards in a fight for its survival. As we are so often told by Marxist do-gooders, national identity is nothing but a European nineteenth century imperialist construct designed to split the mighty Arab nation into pieces. By this reasoning, there is no such thing as "Palestinians". We so often hear the tiresome refrain that Kuwait, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria etc. were carved up unnaturally by Europeans. Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid. Is it to be one mighty Arab nation or tatters of European empire?

And I do not have one bit of sympathy for their "plight" in light of what evil savagery Arabs commit in Sudan, or against Kurds in Iraq or Berbers in the Maghreb.

If I were Israel I would give Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank back to Jordan (the original owners who showed no inclination of giving it to "Palestinians" when they had before '67) and then build the world's tallest fence, mine it from end to end and then put all so-called "Palestinians" on the other side of it. The UN decided to put Israel there and don't all bleeding hearts support mighty UN decisions?

• Bazz ... "The undewrlying problem is the behavioural problems of the arabs who have generation after generation married their cousins. Anyone who has had to deal with the behaviour of handicapped children (as I have) will notice the similarity in unreasonable attitudes when something does not go their way. It seems to be caused by, amoungst other symptoms, a lack of the ability to understand the position of other people".

• Dee ... "Irfan, if you actually read the post, you would have seen that I was answering Bazz's question on cousin-marriage within the Muslim world - does the truth bother you for some reason"? Not at all! Nor our Jew-lesser brethren (as a matter of fact), versus Zionist disinfo-blabbermouth (living in a glass-house), who clearly lacked elementary decency to divulge our readers about the ruling-class Jew aristocracy. The almighty-chosen to reign within the rule by the best.

To digest offered exposé, lets us to focus on the common denominator of the born to rule Russian Jew Romanovs, cousins of English Jew King George V, and German Jew Kaisers, related to Austrian Hapsburg's Jew dynasty. Whose blue-blooded spouses stock within the sought-after Jew princesses derived quite-often from a Danish father-in-law of Europe.

However I dreading even to mention evil origins of an utterly debauch Jew tyrant King Henry-VIII. With a lots of blood on his hands as half a dozen of his queens went to the chopping-block in succession. Whist born to rule King remarried repeatedly within his Anglican escapism exploits charade, away from Judeo Vatican. Only to plunge Catholic and Protestant masses into protracted bloody massacres, reciprocally stirred for generations.

• Bazz ... "BTW, cousin marriage was done for a good reason, to keep wealth and land within the family. Surprising however as rural people know all about inbreeding of stock. Perhaps they didn't think the same rules applied to people. It is a major failing of the religious hirachy that they did not forbid it. Cousin marriage was not unheard of in England in the 18th and 19th century, Queen Victoria married her cousin.

A solution to the present situation:

Ask Hezbollah for a cease-fire (as there was for 17 months before the Palestinian beach party was slaughted)in return for an Israeli withdrawal.

Negotiate a prisoner exchange.

Return to the negotiating table with whoever has been democratically elected.

This may not appear to suit Israeli expansionist ambitions, but it could be the foundation for future peace and security. The alternative is to continue with the slaughter of Arabs and multiply problems for a very long time to come.

Stan,

It would certainly not suit Israel, or the majority of Lebanese who abhor Hizbollah:

http://www.10452lccc.com/

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060720lebanon

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008681

http://www.10452lccc.com/english06/officer21.7.06.htm

How about people understand that most Lebanese have as little time for Hizbollah as Israel and America do. The problem is that through repeating the Hizbollah/Syrian/Iranian misinformation ordinary people risk using their understandable distate for civilian casualties to prop up and prolong the malignant presence of Hizbollah in Lebanon. If Lebanese civilians can see the opportunity presented to them to move forward, entirely as a result of the current crisis, ie they can look past the inevitable civilian casualties caused by Hizbollah's illegal use of civilians to shield their activities, then why can't otherwise sane people see that force is sometimes necessary.

I shudder to think what would have been said if this forum existed during the second world war.

Inshallah

2bob

Stan1 wrote;
Ask Hezbollah for a cease-fire (as there was for 17 months before the Palestinian beach party was slaughted)in return for an Israeli withdrawal.

Negotiate a prisoner exchange.

End quote:

This is nothing more than wishful thinking. Doesn't anyone understand that there are two irreconsilable positions here ?
One side says that Israel must be annihilated.
The other says we don't want to be annihilated.
God tells one side to annihilate the Israeles.
God tells the other side to defend my people.

And you think you can find a solution to this ?

You have got to be kidding !!

Tweedledee: Remember the PLO? A secular, democratic state in all of Palestine for all its citizens (not one based on that abstraction, 'the Jewish people') - just like we have in Australia - Jews & non-Jews? Now that was reality - but it was rejected then by the ideological Zionists in control of Israel. As a way station to a future binational state of Israel/Palestine, the minimum the international community should expect of Israel NOW, and not a moment later, is a Palestinian state in 100% of the Occupied Territories & East Jerusalem. Israel could vacate the OTs tomorrow - if it had the political will. If not, sooner or later, the UN will have to institute sanctions like it did with South Africa.

2bob. There would be no need for ordinary people to prop up Hezbollah, as you put it, if Israel had not created them in the first place, and as they are now creating another generation of people whose hatred of Israel will continue the bloodshed on both sides. Do you really think that the Lebanese can look past the ‘inevitable civilian casualties’ or that Hezbollah or its inevitable successor(s) will be completely crushed by force?

Bazz. “Doesn’t anyone understand that there are two irreconcilable positions here?”
So just carry on killing each other then year after year after year. I was suggesting creating reconciliation, which requires both sides to negotiate – a saner alternative, I would have thought.

Both of you. Give up your ambitions to take the lot, settle for a reasonable boundary and create two countries in which it will be possible for people to live in peace.

Dear Stan

the interaction between you and Bazz and the comments of Stewth all go to re-inforce the long standing well proven principle of international relations of:

Ethnic cleansing = Peace and Stability.

The problem is, 'ethnic cleansing' is now a dirty word. Its not 'politically correct'... but by golly..it works :)

So, to me, ethnic/religious cleansing is in reality the most comassionate approach to 'tribal' conflict.

As long as there are people of different cultures and race living amongst each other ULTIMATELY there will come a time (as populations grow) where they will begin squabbling over resources.

Water.
Access to employment.
Access to Economic opportunities.
Land.

Far better to separate peoples and provide fixed borders. That way, any infringement can be clear cut and they can then fight a war if they feel inclined, and sort it out.

But in places where one river flows through 3 countries, wooooo.. now that's a tinderbox. Wars can often be fought over the water issue.
If you look deeply at Israels activities, you will see that Water was in fact a major issue.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters how one cuts the cake, how well we manage ethnicities and borders, race and culture, there will always come a *point* where conflict arises. (due to population mainly)

Once a shortage arises, the radicals and extremists take over yelling 'What right do THEY have to cut off OUR water' etc etc.... and..its on for young and old.
I actually had this experience in Malaysia... a Muslim village cut off the water to all downstream of the pipe. We didn't have a war, we just went and found the problem and they were rather red faced :) The funny thing was, many of those Muslims (the older ones) owed their lives to the medical work our mission had done in earlier years, it was the young firebrands who cut off the water.

2bob,

I happened to hear Boutrous Boutrous Ghali interview last night.

He pointed out the US and it's allies invaded Iraq using a resolution of the UN to legitimise the invasion. I agreed with that position and the invasion of Iraq on the basis of that supporting resolution.

He said quite clearly three very important things:

1) Lebanon and Israel are soverign states and both memnbers of the UN.

2) Any invasion by any member state of the UN must be authorised by resolution of the UN.

3) There has been no resolution sought by Israel, nor one passed by the UN that states Israel can invade Lebanon.

Still think the Israeli's can flout international convention and UN rules to invade another soverign state, even if it is claimed to be in self defense?

Mate I doubt you'd go that far...since you have an obvious respect for International Law and Convention.

Keith,

May I take it from the restrained tone of your post that you have examined the site?

Good point (re: Boutrous Boutrous Ghali interview) however it fails to take into account a number of factors:

(a) Not least that Israel & Lebanon have been in a state of war since 1973, which although technically legitimizing the current situation, nevertheless would not normally be used as a pretext for the actions of Israel.

(b) The fact that the Lebanese President, allowed Hizbollah, an organization which has previously stated its sworn and sacred cause to be the destruction of Israel, to guard the Lebanese/Israeli border.

(c) The obdurate refusal by the same pro-Syrian President, to disarm, but rather allow Hizbollah to retain its arms, in clear violation of Un Resolution(s) 452 & 1559, by registering as a ‘resistance’ rather than a ‘militia’, so as to be able to achieve their ‘sacred’ cause.

(d) The obdurate refusal to allow the Lebanese army to secure the border as required by 452 (the resolution Hizbollah states that Israel is in non-compliance with over Sheba’a farms). Israel has complied with this, as certified by the UN.

(e) These farmlands, where taken by Syria in the 1920’s and lost by them in 1973 when Israel beat off their invasion through the Golan Heights. These are included in the ceasefire agreement regarding the Golan Heights.

(f) So Lebanon, particularly Hizbollah, claiming these are Lebanese territory, is similar to a Japanese group claiming part of the DMZ in Korea, on the basis that Manchuria was once Japanese, and is utterly without merit.

(g) Even if the ownership (or lack thereof) is disputed, there can be no dispute that an unprovoked bombardment of Israel, by the force that the Lebanese government placed in that position (contrary to UN 452 & 1559) is a clear act of war.

The decision to reply to what at most, is technical, UN sanctioned non-compliance, with 452 by Israel, with an unprovoked artillery barrage, entitles Israel to refute entirely their compliance with 452, thereby legalizing the reoccupation of Lebanon.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008681

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5200628.stm

Inshallah

2bob

2bob

Firstly 2bob it is you who has stopped with the personal abuse...I've only ever tried to defuse those remarks with witty retorts. To say I've shown restraint is an aspersion you have cast falsely. I've had nothing recemtly from you that has required a response. In fact I've admired the fact you've shown me the respect I've undoubtly deserved.

By the by
All the points you made should have been presented to the UN by Israel.
The UN would have then decided whether to legitimise the Israeli invasion or not.

One thing is certain: It is not up to the Israelis to decide. Their decision to invade is illegal.

I would have thought that obvious.

Now do you support their illegal invasion?

Strewth – I’m sure you wont mind if I address you as ‘Numbskull’ since this is my opinion of you. Only fair since you have taken the liberty of addressing me as Tweedledee, which you probably think is the height of brilliant wit. And no more mention of ‘Arab leaders’ from you – guess you found that the quotes by Hamas and PLO leaders were correct.

’Remember the PLO?’

Sure – the organization led by the monster who invented modern terrorism: airplane hijackings, kidnappings and mass murder, like the Olympic massacre of 1972.

This sermon by Arafat-appointed and funded Ahmad Abu Halabiya was broadcast live on official Palestinian Authority television early in the Intifada. The subject is "the Jews." (NB: not the Israelis, but the Jews.)

"They must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.' . . . Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them."

But of course, according to you, this doesn’t mean that the aim of ‘Arab leaders’ was and is the obliteration of Israel. Perish the thought!

‘ A secular, democratic state in all of Palestine for all its citizens’

This is so laughable that I wont waste space commenting except to say that Arafat never had any intention of creating such a thing – if he had truly cared about the Palestinians, he would have spent some of the billions he received on things like hot running water, electricity and medical care. Instead, Palestinian children are taught hatred with their mothers milk.

‘If not, sooner or later, the UN will have to institute sanctions like it did with South Africa.’

LOL - I’m sure the Israelis will be shaking in their shoes

Keith,

Thank you for the enlightenment,

So your position truly is that the 1 million Lebanese that support Hizbollah (That would truly be the most ambitious estimate of their support) should be able to impose their will on the ~6 million Israeli's & the other 5 million Lebanese without any UN approval whatsoever, and in fact in clear contravention of UN resolutions?

WHY?

A rational considered answer would be appreciated, however, I shall not hold my breath.

Inshallah

2bob

The very sad thing about this story, is how Iran is making money
out of this war, at the cost of Israeli and Lebanese lives.

Iran's madcap prez provides Hezbollah with a pile of rockets.
The fanatics amongst Hezbollah, of course are going to try
and use them. The Israelis naturally respond to rockets being
fired into their communities, nobody can blame them for that.

World oil traders, aware that the West is hooked on Arab oil and
that 40% of it has to pass the Straites of Hormuz, push the
price up by 10$. Iran, exporting 3 million barrels a day, cashes
in an extra 30 million $ day, without a single Iranian life
at risk.

In reality Iran is becoming even richer at the expense of
Lebanese/ Arab blood, having been manipulated by religious
dogma. Its sad that the Lebanese don't realise that they
are being taken for a ride by Iran, who are of course not
Arabs.

The West has made one huge mistake, ie. depending on the
Middle East for its energy supplies. We are yet to pay
a huge price for that

There you go again 2bob. And not very witty either.

Mate if Hezbollah were to invade Israel, as the Israeli's are currently invading Lebanon, I'd have the exact same attitudes. Would you?

Now that 2bob is considered. Can you rise to the same level of impartiality?

Time for the UN to be saved from US imperialism.

1. United States has placed itself in charge of global decisionmmaking without any license. Her only license is one of self-appointment. The mistaken belief that because she is now unipolar, and to have achieved that position through the fall of the Soviet Union, the US automatically should rule the world.

2. But how wrong it is in a world that the US is always asking for democracy, which should mean that the US should rule this world not through blatant power, but by means of a democratic vote arranged in a democratic institution such as the United Nations.

3. Further, because the UN does try to make laws at the behest of global representatives, the US now continually knocks back such laws because they are against the interests of Pax Americana, a cynical label for a country which like the old Roman Empire, for the last few years has inisted in holding the big end of a non-libertinian stick

Bushbred Part Two

No more proof of America’s lack of global democratic activity has been her recent countermanding of a UN Resolution to fully discuss the Israeli attack on Lebanon. And how does our modern US countermand such laws?. By means of an outmoded veto only placed in the UN constitution originally through the insistence of the world’s two strongest powers to each have entitlement to use the veto at the time, the United States and the Soviet Union.

Furthermore, the fact the US has been allowed to use her outmoded veto, proves what a dumbed down set of scaredy-cats we now have as national and commonwealth representatives, which includes not only Britain, but our gutless Labor opposition in Australia, which appears to regard John Howard as Labor’s spokesman in world affairs which he definitely is not, which has been proven every time he prostrates himself before George W Bush, as just a weak lackey of Pax Americana.

It is suggested that with such impending problems again pressing our Middle East, America’s undemocratic and autocratic attitude to the situation should be much more discussed through our so wonderfully convenient Online

Keith,

They did, you don't, what gives?

Tell you what if Hizbollah does not see any reason to comply with the laying down of its arms, and the Lebanese Government did not place its army on the Israel/Lebanon border, Israel's obligation to maintain compliance with UN425 is over. Israel exchanged all of Southern Lebanon for those two conditions, and is certified by the UN to have done so entirely.

Israel always complies with UN resolutions eventually, whereas it appears that Hizbollah and their partner in peace, Lebanon, do not ever even attempt to comply with their obligations.

The IDF is still not in top gear, if they are forced to go in hard Lebanon will pay an extremely heavy price for Hizbollah's stupidity.

Inshallah

2bob

PS There is an agreement under UN 425 for Israel to pull out of Lebanon, which is certified as fully complied with, the other side has attempted to withdraw from an agreement without meeting any of their obligations under that agreement (Lebanese army on the border & border security), after gaining all the benefits to which they were entitled under the agreement. In contract law, this means that the party which is damaged, must be returned to their position prior to their entry into the contract, so I would expect, given that this is also based upon the law of obligations, that International law would be similar.

Israel will not attack Iran and like nations who are prepared to defend themselves without a full on offensive.

Why?

Because Jews are cowards who have been trying to bait surrounding nations into a starting a war, pulling in USA and her allies.

People, do not ever bleed for a Jew for they will never offer to bleed for you.

Once again 2bob you've spruikeed Israeli propaganda.

Israel was forced out of it's 18 year occupation by Hezbollah's resistance. It had nothiing to give. It did not own Southern Lebanon.

Yikes your definition of Invasion is considerably different from the REST OF THE WORLDS.

Aas I said Israel was in Southern Lebanon for EIGHTEEN YEARS so what makes you think this current illegal invasion is going to produce any different result. Eventually Israel will skulk back behind it's borders and wait for it's next futile attempt to hijack Lebanese lands just as it did last time.

As for legal positions, well 2bob Israel's latest attack and invasion is illegal just as it was last time too. 'Clean hands' rings a bell in my mind somewhere.

At least, the “brave fighting the enemy” Hesbollah’s launching the rockets from non-inhabited areas rather than from school playgrounds and musk quarters is to spare many Lebanese civilians from “sh...ty little aggressive” Israel defending own citizens and right to exist regrettably to too many in Australia surely.

Spider what a pathetic racist post.

The jews, palestinians, lebanese and others caught up in this mess are human beings. Some want to get on with their lives as well as they can and others are determined to carry on an old fight. All who fight have some legitimate reasons for doing so and all contribute to what seems to be an endless cycle of violence in the area which takes the lives of so many who want none of it.

Your kind of racist comment is just as bad as the views of those who blame the whole thing on the arab's/muslims/garden gnomes (or whatever pet hate group they have).

Get over it.

R0bert

RObert. I agree with your post. I will criticise the Israelis for what they are doing but racist approaches do not help and should be strongly discouraged.

Hands off Spider!

His provocative message is exactly what all this conflict about-biological hatred of the Jews in Australia for instance.

The newest developments: Lebanese government was in advance aware by Hizbollah of kidnepping Israeli soldiers, and Russia axed US Iran-related resolution at the Sec Council

Tweedledee: Presumably you live in Australia, a secular, democratic society, with all the benefits that entails. Yet you advocate the opposite in Israel/Palestine. Why do choose to live in an ethnically plural state such as Australia, yet support an ethnically exclusive state in Israel/Palestine? Sounds like schizophrenia to me.

I do not know whom you refer to by using “Tweedledee”, but your cliché of “a secular, democratic society, with all the benefits that entails” / “an ethnically plural state” really “sounds like schizophrenia to me” well acquainted with a xenophobic racist reality of this semi-colony of England where for instance even the most recent The Age articles point out at legalised discrimination in both employment / variety of life opportunities and many other areas, less explicitly understandable for in-majority-products of a local so-called education.

Strewth/Numbskull - ‘Yet you advocate the opposite in Israel/Palestine.’

Strange, I don’t recall advocating any such thing. I supported lsrael’s right to defend herself against those who wish to destroy her. The actions and beliefs of Palestinians are hardly those of people wishing to live in a ‘secular Democratic society’. Where do you get this nonsense? Perhaps it would be more informative to watch what they do, not listen to the lies they spout.

As the Israeli spokeswoman said this week: ‘This war isn’t just about 2 soldiers’.

Hezbollah and Hamas have fired over 6000 Katusha rockets at Israel over the past few years. If a terrorist organisation with the stated aim of annihilating Australia came to power in Indonesia and began to randomly fire missiles at us, what do you imagine would be the response? There would be no hesitation in taking out the launch sites and the support infrastructure.

If these were in civilian areas, what would we do? Israel has airdropped warnings to the locals to get out of the area, but there are reports of Hezbollah preventing civilians from leaving. If it happened to us, would we watch idly as Australian towns were attacked?

This week, Al-Qaida’s No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from 'Spain to Iraq.'

In the message broadcast by Al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahri, said that al-Qaida now views 'all the world as a a battlefield open in front of us.'

Is this clear enough? Sounds a lot like a wish to live in a 'secular Democracy', doesnt it?

Tweedledee:

Well, you support Israel as a Jewish state, don't you, one that by its very definition & practice preference's Jews over non-Jews? How'd you feel about me advocating a Christian or a Muslim or Blondes-only state in Australia?

Re the "actions & beliefs of Palestinians", the victim retaliates against the Israeli bully, but you're on the side of the bully and support his right to defend himself. Grotesque.

"Hezbollah and Hamas have fired over 6000 Katusha [sic] rockets at Israel over the past few years." What a statement! Let's break this little piece of disinfo down: a) Document the firing & number of K rockets by Hamas, chapter & verse. b) Document how many K's were fired by Hezbollah BEFORE Hezbollah's RESPONSE to Israel's targeting of Lebanese lives and infrastructure, chapter and verse.

As for al-Qaida, what would you Zionist propagandists do without it? Israel's ACTUAL aggression and destruction fuels a group like al-Qaida which then provides the opportunity for Israel's cheersquad, of which you're obviously a fully paid-up member, to go 'Oooh aaah'. Haven't you got anything better to do?

Strewth/Numbskull - ‘preference's Jews over non-Jews?’

Israel’s foundation as a "Jewish state" is at odds with its political basis of democratic governance when it concerns the Arab minority - undoubtedly there is prejudice against Arabs in Israel. On the other hand, Arabs have more freedom in Israel than the citizens of any Arab state. They vote, elect leaders to the Knesset and have their own political parties and newspapers. They also have full rights to citizenship. Perhaps you could name one Middle Eastern Muslim country where Jews or Christians have any such rights?

If conditions for Arabs are so terrible, why do Arabs continue to flock to Israel? In 1949, the Arab population of Israel was approximately 160,000 - today, it is over 1.2 million. This is because of migration, not higher birth rates.

'Document how many K's were fired by Hezbollah'

I’m sure you’ll tell me and save me the research time although I dont see why it should matter. Hezbollah (according to their own words) expected the usual ‘limited response’ by Israel to the kidnapping of its soldiers. Does that expectation convey anything to you?

‘Grotesque’

You continue to mistake your personal opinion for debate. Perhaps others consider the morally-bankrupt Arafat followers to be 'grotesque'. Keeping your 'wife' in luxury in Paris while your people live in squalid 'camps' could be called 'grotesque'. Teaching toddlers hate songs could be called 'grotesque'. Carrying away body parts from bomb victims could be called 'grotesque'. It depends on ones p.o.v.

‘ what would you Zionist propagandists do without it’

Since I’m not a ‘Zionist propagandist’, I really dont know what they would do without al-Qaeda – live more secure lives, perhaps? Supporting Israel’s right to defend herself doesn’t translate to being a ‘cheer squad’ or any other of your emotive accusations.

‘Haven't you got anything better to do?’

No, being a 'Zionist propagandist' takes up all my time lately- damn, my cheque's not in the mail, they forgot again! A comical question considering that you are the one responding to my posts and making up lame wordplays on my name.

If Israel was wiped off the map, would there be peace in the Middle East?
The truth is that without Israel to hate, the Syrians, Iranians and Lebanese would simply turn on each other and the fighting would go on as it always has.
There is not enough intelligence to understand that co operating with each other would be more profitable that killing each other but then life in the Middle East is cheap......except for the leaders' own skins.

Tweedle: So you're not a Zionist propagandist, eh? I'll make it simple for you. You're a supporter of a Jewish state in Palestine, yes? Establishing, maintaining, defending such a state in Palestine was/is the mission of political Zionism, introduced to the world by Mr Herzl, yes? You're one of the Jewish state's defenders, yes? Now tell us why the moniker Zionist doesn't fit you.

As for propogandist, take your statement: "Hezbollah and Hamas have fired over 6000 katyusha rockets at Israel over the past few years". I put it to you that that is a falsehood, yes? If your answer is no, then I challenge you to show, as I've already asked, to produce evidence, "chapter & verse" as I've put it. You made the claim, so it's simply not good enough to ask me to do "the research" as you put it. It looks, shall we say, shifty, sought of what you'd expect from a propagandist. Now, if you have the courage to admit that it's false, you'll reveal yourself to have plucked it out of thin air or lifted it from a Zionist propagandist. Which, I put it to you, would place you in the ranks of a propagandist, and a Zionist propagandist at that. But at least, if you're prepared to fess up, I'd have some respect for you as a human being.

Numbskull- - "I'd have some respect for you .."

Whatever would make you think that I care about 'respect' from you - a person who is not mature enough to accept that someone may hold a different opinion from your own.

Presumably, you are a non-aboriginal Australian - if so, you are living on land taken from the original indigenous people whose culture was destroyed when the white settlers arrived. If the aboriginals had been more warlike and organised, they may have formed something like Hezbollah or the PLO – let’s call it the Koori Liberation Front and address the following scenario:

The KLO takes refuge in surrounding countries (like PNG or Indonesia) where the governments and many of the population sympathize with its position and provide money and arms to carry on the fight against the white invaders. The KLO vows that they will kill every settler and never stop fighting until the last one is dead. They fire rockets into cities and towns, send suicide bombers and murder civilians. Australia is 200 years old so second and third generations must deal with the situation. Obviously, it cannot be allowed to continue. What would be your solution? You can:

1. Acknowledge that the KLO is right, pack up and leave - but that would not be your choice. If you feel so strongly about living on ‘stolen land’ you would not be living in Australia. You would have given your house/land to the descendents of the original inhabitants and returned to the home(s) of your ancestors. Since you have not done so, I can only assume that you are ok with living on 'occupied land'.

2. Try to negotiate for peace with people who have vowed that they will fight until the last settler is dead and who have refused every deal so far.

3. Fight.

You are now in the same position as the Great Bully Israel – what would you do? Easy to spout morality when it's not you in the hot seat, isnt it?

Tweedle,

What an elaborate attempt at wriggling out of fessing up to the fact that you've been caught out telling porkies: "Hamas & Hezbollah have fired over 6000 Katusha [sic] rockets at Israel over the past few years."

You don't care about earning my respect? Fine, I'm not that desperate. But have some respect for other posters and admit you just made it up, you know, that rubbish about 6000 Katyusha rockets landing on Israel courtesy of Hamas and Hezbollah. Be a mensch and admit that you lied for Israel, that you're really nothing more than a propagandist - a Zionist propagandist. You're in good company, here on OLO.

Come on, don't be shy, we're waiting.......

Dee
and now you have observed first hand the extent to which 'Numbskull's ethical position has been Strewn all over the playground, as he himself ducks and weaves and hides behind 'attack' rather than face up to your (and my) continual attempts to 'out' him as one who himself lives on 'stolen' land. (whether he is in Australia or anywhere... it would still apply)

His morality and ethics are ridden with hypocricy and are a shambles.
Stricken, and with no argument, he lashes out in a vain attempt to stay relevant.

Looking at the Indigenous in fighting in NT at the moment.. "Evil Warriors" and the "Judas Priests"..clan against clan, family against family.. they are not even fighting us.

I find it noteworthy that when the Catholics ran the education/mission, there was 100% attendance at school, and in spite of some blemishes on their moral record, by and large things seem to have been MUCH better socially than they are now with their liberated 'lefy' advisors.

Strewn will avoid at all costs admitting he is the pot calling the kettle black, no, he would just rather use the standard propogandist mode of attacking the opponent.

Well, did you all know that the Explosion (lets not call it an 'Air Strike) which killed all the children and women in Qana was IN FACT DONE BY HEZBOLLAH themselves ? They resorted to their most powerful weapon, public opinion in the West......

Believable ? its as believable as the "CIA/Mossad conspiracy of 9/11" and of course the Israelis making an admission of 'tragic mistake' ? well that tape of course was 'faked'....and so the delusion goes on for the gullable.

So, Strewth, if you havn't got the guts to admit where you live, (country) your religious or ethnic background, you are not worth even being read on this forum. I've indicated clearly my own background and you DUCKED FOR COVER saying we will never know more about you than your nick...

The phrase SNIVELLING COWARD comes to mind ! Or..is it "Cold and Calculating Operative" ?

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. We eagerly await your next post, Tweedle.

Numby – what an elaborate attempt to wriggle out of answering my question. How about answering some of my other questions? Can you name another country in the ME where Jews and Christians have rights? Guess not. I (and others) also provided dozens of quotes from ‘Arab leaders’ who were dedicated to destroying Israel – you never did specify exactly what an ‘Arab leader’ is, although I asked you to define your terms.

Did you also discover that the Hamas Charter is correct?

‘Did Steel also debunk the statement by the Iranian cleric Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani’ – don’t think you replied to this one either.

And now you refuse to say what you would do if you were in the place of an Israeli. What a typical hypocrite you are – you emote and criticize at a distance of thousands of miles, you live (exactly as the Israelis live) on ‘stolen land’, yet you refuse to admit that you could easily be in the same position if the scenario I presented had been real. Well, what would you do? If you are a non-aboriginal Australian living in Australia, the question gets to the heart of your ‘morality’.

‘Katusha rockets’

I got this information from the speech made by the Israeli spokeswoman at the July 24th press conference in Sydney. I see no reason to disbelieve her.

‘The ex-security zone in South Lebanon, evacuated by Israel under the pressure of former US President Clinton, is now totally under Hezbollah terrorist control. Hezbollah has deployed there 2000 permanent men with a significant weaponry: 6000 to 10,000 improved long range Katusha missiles with tube launchers, anti-aircraft missiles of "Strella" type, anti-Aircraft guns of different calibers, 130mmm Guns, 120mm and 80mm mortars, electronic warfare equipment, anti-tank missiles, type "Sagger" improved and some of them wireless.’ (Of course, this must be 'Zionist propaganda).

http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/2003/October/red_flag/red_flag.html

So when are you giving your bit of 'stolen land' back to the original inhabitants?

Tweedledee:

You and alike anti-Semites must kiss bin Laden’s ar….le for making Anglo-racism flourishing in the UK and Co, as the States have a multitude of racial problems already but not so explicitly anti-Semitic.

Israel is a skip goal for your lovely English crown from the dawn of history although deploying the Jewish state was a step in a direction of Islamist hegemony in the UK at first stage - but your lovely lords would do even this to keep their inherited places in “the most democratic parliament” warm.

MichaelK - does the 'k' stand for Khyber Pass by any chance?

Dont understand your stupid post although it appears to be in English. You seem to be accusing me of being an anti-Semite - could anyone be that dumb?

'your lovely English crown';'your lovely lords'

My what? I'm an Australian - we dont have 'lovely crowns' or 'lovely lords' whatever they may be.

'making Anglo-racism flourishing'

The only thing making 'anglo-racism' flourish in the UK is the vile behaviour and self-proclaimed treachery of resident Muslim extremists - like the ones who carried out the London attack.

Please go away. Any post you direct to me will go unanswered.

Tweedle:

So, the Zionist propagandist, aka dee, got the info - "Hezbollah and Hamas have fired over 6000 Katusha [sic] rockets at Israel over the past few years" - from "the Israeli spokeswoman at the July 24th press conference in Sydney. I see no reason to disbelieve her." I make the following points:

1) Why did you "see no reason to disbelieve her"? Do governmental spokespersons always tell the truth? Are they not employed to spin PR for their employer? Or is it the case that, to the extent they're Israeli, they're uniquely incapable of exaggeration, distortion, misrepresentation and lies, ie propaganda? Why should anyone listen to a person such as yourself who admits to no doubt whenever someone speaks on behalf of a government that's paying their salary? In other words, why should anyone listen to one so gullible?

2)Equally, why should anyone listen to you when it's obvious that you either can't read or have deliberately falsified someone else's words? Where in the slice of Zionist hasbara quoted by you in your last post addressed to me is Hamas mentioned? And, as far as the figure of 6000 is concerned it says clearly: "Hezbollah has deployed...6000 to 10000 long range Katusha [sic] missiles." It does not, as you wrote, say "Hezbollah & Hamas have FIRED over 6000 Katusha [sic] rockets at Israel over the past few years." I'm forced to conclude that you're either a deliberate purveyor of porkies or a dolt in need of remedial English. Again, why should anyone take such a person seriously?

To sum up, you've demonstrated yourself to be a peddler of Zionist propaganda, with a tendency to gullibility (useful in this field) and a capacity for misrepresentation either witting or, in the event you have a diagnosed literacy problem, unwitting. In short, you lack all credibility when it comes to meaningful and useful commentary on ME affairs. But it gets worse: You haven't even the integrity to admit any of these failings. Isn't it time you stopped insulting us with your posts?

Numbskull – I believed her because she is not the only source. Israeli Intelligence reports (those that are released) state the same. Since everything said by a Palestinian is gospel truth (like the Jenin ‘massacre’ that never happened) and everything said by an Israeli is ‘propaganda’, you best stick with the Arab press for your 'facts'.

‘ It does not, as you wrote, say "Hezbollah & Hamas have FIRED over 6000 Katusha [sic] rockets at Israel over the past few years’

You expect us to believe that 6000-10000 rockets are in this area, but none have been fired at Israel? Or that it would have been ok if only 5000 rockets had been fired? Are you for real?

‘Equally, why should anyone listen to you’

Why should anyone listen to a hypocrite who is heavy on criticism and accusations but refuses to answer the simplest question ie– what he would do in the same situation?

Everyone in the New World is living on ‘stolen land’ and there is approximately 140 years difference between Israel and Australia. What exactly is the difference between you and an Israeli, except that you don’t have to deal with the PLO or Hezbollah?

To sum up, you have demonstrated yourself to be a person without the moral integrity to admit that Australians, Americans, NZers, Canadians were in the same position as Israelis not too long ago. You are happy to live on ‘stolen land’ while criticizing Israelis. I think that’s known as ‘hypocrisy’- akin to 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.'

‘Isn't it time you stopped insulting us with your posts?’

Its certainly time I stopped wasting posts on you. So goodbye, enjoy living on ‘stolen land’ while you slam Israelis for defending themselves. Mind you, I don’t think you would ever have the balls to defend yourself or your country – fortunately it’s all been done for you by others, hasn’t it? If faced by a KLO – sorry, PLO – ‘fighter’ you would probably run like a little girl.

So, Tweedle is for Dee.

Although you,Dee, sound pro-Israeli, your last post to me is really stupid, especially a part separating Australia from foreign crown.

I do not know whether the UK more anti-Semitic is, but it is much less loyally royal than its dominion of Australia surely.

And I need no your reply if you think that your English entitles for such a favour.

Actually dee, Strewth quoted you correctly. This is what you said here http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4689#49421:

“Hezbollah and Hamas have fired over 6000 Katusha rockets at Israel over the past few years.”

When in fact your quote of the Israeli spokeswoman refers to them being “deployed” in the area, not fired.

Deployed is different from firing. But no need for you to make such a distinction when you are in full Arab-hating bloodcurdling flight.

“I believed her because she is not the only source. Israeli Intelligence reports (those that are released) state the same.” LOL Gullible is a good word. Isn’t it amazing how they came up with the same thing. A bit like GWB, JH and TB and their “intelligence” which turned out to be “sexed-up” and fabricated.

BTW dee,

I'm sure I've told you before that I have always found a dictionary a useful tool. Perhaps you should invest in one. You might find one the next time you're out trawling for murderous Islamic texts.

Tweedle:

More twaddle? Geez tweedle, you don't even evince ANY interest whatever in the facts, do you?

So, for the rest, The Weekend Australian (30/7/06) says: "Hezbollah militants have fired more than 1,500 missiles at northern Israel since the start of the Lebanon conflict on July 12, according to the police and army." Israeli police & army, in a Murdoch publication, Tweedle, what more could you ask for?

I'd hate to think just how much ordnance your heroes have lobbed/dropped on Gaza & Lebanon - 6,000- 10,000? 20,000? Cluster bombs? Phosphorus bombs? What other nasties, & what other nasties in store? Qana x ?

And what have you got against little girls? To all your other sterling qualities, I now add sexism. But, I imagine you're really quite proud of those scribbling messages of peace and goodwill on Israeli shells bound for Lebanese civilians.

Hit the road, Tweedle. We've all had enough of your twaddle.

Tao - the Free Lebanon link stated that 6000-10000 rockets had been deployed in the area (2003), the Israeli spokeswoman stated (July 2006) that 6000 rockets have been fired at Israel over the past couple of years. Makes sense unless the rockets are there for show. But you dont mention that Numbskull accused me of 'making up' the figure and when I supplied my source, he decided that it was 'Zionist propaganda' anyhow. This fundamental dishonesty - my sources are 'propaganda', his are 'fact' - is why any further discussion is a total waste of time.

'next time you're out trawling for murderous Islamic texts'.

I dont reqire a dictionary, the koran alone contains sufficient 'murderous Islamic texts' to satisfy any searcher.

'Isn’t it amazing how they came up with the same thing'.

No. Obviously she got her info from the intelligence reports - thats why they are made.

'Hezbollah militants have fired more than 1,500 missiles at northern Israel since the start of the Lebanon conflict on July 12,'

Dishonest to the end, arent you?

My words: 'fired over 6000 Katusha rockets at Israel over the past few years.'

I never stated that the rockets were fired since July 12 - as you well know. Anything to avoid answering the original question I suppose.

'what have you got against little girls'

Not a thing. I gave them as a comparison because little girls tend to hide their heads or run away at the first sign of trouble. I imagine this would be your behaviour if rockets were fired at you.

'We've all had enough of your twaddle.'

LOL - Do you speak for everyone else now? Im sure you're relieved to see me go (temporarily) since it means you wont continually be asked to answer the simple basic question, 'what would you do if you were an Israeli'.

You are a total hypocrite without the integrity to admit that you live on 'stolen land' yourself.

Ahem, Space Control to Twaddle: Not so fast. On Monday 31 you wrote: " I got this information from...the Israeli spokeswoman...I see no reason to disbelieve her". You followed this with a supporting quotation re DEPLOYMENT of 6-10000 "Katusha [sic] missiles". Now you're trying to tell us that what she ACTUALLY said was "6000 rockets have been fired at Israel over the past couple of years" without any meaningful citation or mention of who fired them or even if they were Katyushas.

The Australian's Israeli army/police figures "dishonest"? Take it up with The Australian and the Israeli army and police then, before you project your honesty onto me.

Seeing you're determined to go on making an ass of yourself, and assuming that, because you've been on the blower to Rupert and he's confirmed the figure of 1500 based on Israeli army/police figures, you now accept the figure of 1500 since July 12 BUT want to maintain that "Hamas & Hezbollah have fired over 6000 Katusha [sic] rockets at Israel over the past few years" [your assertion of 28 July], please feel free to cite hard evidence of these two organisations firing the other 4500 Katyushas at Israel over the past few years PRIOR to July 12. We'd also like to know just how many were fired by Hezbollah as opposed to Hamas. Have fun.

Strewth, I get the impression that you simply enjoy taking on the role of a troll on here.... its more about mental gymnastics
it seems.

What cannot be denied is that Hezbollah has been firing lots
of rockets at Israel and now that Israel is not just turning the
other cheeck, but responding as they best know how, there is
an outcry.

I try to focus on the big picture. I don't have much time for
any religious fanaticism, be it from the Catholics, the Jews with
the funny hats or the fanatical end of Islam. Most secular
types, from whatever origin, would probably get along just fine,
without all the religious stuff.

The good news is that the Jews are only making a claim to a tiny
little patch of dirt, in relative terms. They are not a proselytising
religion either, unlike the Catholics of Muslims.

This whole thing really started, when Mohammed killed off the Jewish
farmers in Medina, as he formed an army around his so called visions
of his God. Today we know that hearing voices is most likely more
a case of schizophrenia, then anything else.

So my view is give the Jews their Jerusalem, if it matters so much
to them. Give the Muslims their Mecca and Medina, if it means so
much to them. But protest loudly if either of them, or the Catholic
Church, want to take over the world, as they often seem to try.

Pay compensation to anyone who lost land in what is now Israel,
but its too hard to turn back the clock, Israel is not going to go
away, so face reality, its time for the world to move on.

Yabby

Agreed - the entire debacle in the Middle East is an argument against religion.

However, if the oil deposits weren't so vast, would there be so much participation from vested interests? It all gets down to power, who has it and who wants it. Meanwhile innocent people are murdered.

A muddy, Zionist crustacean surfaces, but the caravan moves on.

Tweedle, How're you proceeding with your 'research'?

Yabby - 'Pay compensation to anyone who lost land in what is now Israel, but its too hard to turn back the clock'

My sentiments exactly.

Numbskull – oh, please! How thick can one person be? The Free Lebanon link states that 6000-10000 rockets had been deployed in Southern Lebanon – ‘Hezbollahland’ as the writer calls it (written in 2003). You appear to have no argument with this.

The Israeli spokeswoman stated that approx. 6000 rockets had been fired at Israel from Southern Lebanon over the past couple of years (she was speaking in July 2006).

The years between 2003 and 2006 constitute a couple of years.

‘The Australian's Israeli army/police figures "dishonest"’?

No, I said that *YOU* are dishonest. The statement in The Australian covers the period from July 12th 2006 to the present. Thats a lot of rockets to fire in a couple of weeks, isnt it? Seems they had lots, doesnt it?

‘please feel free to cite hard evidence of these two organizations’

Why don’t you cite some evidence that it’s a lie? First you claimed that I ‘made it up’ – now you claim it’s a lie. Make up your mind – if you think it’s a lie, ring the Israeli embassy and have the argument with the person who said it. Strange that you concentrate on ‘how many rockets fired’ rather than on the central issue of Israel’s right to defend herself.

Still living on your bit of ‘stolen land’? Lucky that someone already did the dirty work for you - of course, you would never deprive some poor indigenous person of their own land, would you?

Missing link-surely, it is a present for dummies:

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/08/03/984087.html

Hehe Strewth, me thinks I'm right about the troll bit :)

BTW, no zionism involved here, just an awareness that there
is no rational solution for religious fanaticism, no matter
which brand.

The good news about the Jews is that they arn't trying
to claim rights to Londonistan or Sydneystan, they just
want a tiny patch of dirt as their own. As a humble
infidel, I can actually visit Jerusalem as a tourist,
wheras I can't visit Mecca, as I'm not a muslim.

If it was up to me, religion would be a lifestyle choice
and no more, states would be secular, tolerance would
prevail. Thats clearly not going to happen, while the
devout squabble about their so called holy books.

So I try to see all religions from a more objective
perspective then many of the followers. What does
stand out for me is that wherever Islam goes, conflict
seems to follow. At least the Jews arn't trying to
force all of us to bow to Mecca or follow other religious
claptrap. We are also free to say that we think its
claptrap, without risking our necks.

Your caravan might continue, but if you bother to
read Ali Dashti's "23 Years", a history of Mohammed
and his life, you'll learn that if you were part of
a caravan train of camels in his time, he and his followers
might well have attacked you, stolen your possessions and
cut your throat.

Yabby, are you Tweedle's girlfriend?

Tweedle,

Now stop all that squirming around so we can sort this out. I'll keep it really simple: Just answer YES or NO to the following statement and we can move on from there:

Do you stand by the statement of (all quotes yours) "the Israeli spokeswoman" who "stated that approx 6000 rockets had been fired at Israel from South Lebanon over the past couple of years", that is "2003-2006" (2006 meaning up to 30/7)?

Strewth, as a matter of interest, the Economist of 29th July
mentions the "thousands of rockets" that Mr Nasrallah and Co.
have fired at Israel, with Muslims far and wide cheering him
on.

To be amazed that Israel is responding to these "thousands
of rockets" is either naive or irrational, certainly not
in any way objective.

But then as I stated earlier, methinks you are just playing
mental gymnastics on here...

Has anybody noticed that figures of Israeli (sorry - make that US) rockets, shells, bombs, missiles, cluster bombs, phosphorus thingies yadayadayada are never quoted?

Every time you hear about it in the media they quote the number of rockets that have been fired by Hezbollah, but never how many Israel have fired. Israel must have fired many because they have done so much damage - but never any figures.

Why is this do you think? Who is telling them how many rockets have been fired on either side? And - if it is Israel "intelligence" or PR (and of course I'm only guessing), why aren't they telling us how many they are firing at Lebanon? Shouldn't we be being "fully informed"? Isn't that the media's role? .... Oh that's right ... I'm dreaming ....

If provocateurs by hording women and kids into an already dilapidated building hosting their rockets made a noise of “Israeli atrocities in Qana” worldwide, no matter how many rockets were launched at Israel but annihilating Hizballah and Co with any means possible.

Israel, Hezbollah – how does one choose sides?

Well, one doesn’t; neither has excelled in respect for civilian lives.

Further, not one single country involved in the Middle East has done anything to hasten peace. Clearly ALL Middle Eastern Leaders are more concerned over their politics and religions than they are about the lives of children, women and men. The people who actually make up the very countries and cultures mean nothing to the powers-that-be in their pursuit of winning at all and any costs.

Ultimately, the debacle that is Middle East is everyone’s fault. Yours, mine, his, hers. We are all to blame for doing nothing (except slanging off at each other) to stop the slaughter.

How many lives is it going to take before Israel feels safe?
Before Hezbollah has satisfied it objectives?
Before Moslems, Jews, Christians and the power hungry stop killing each other (and us)?

Well, we haven't heard from Tweedledee since Thursday. I will assume that his silence since then indicates that he's simply not prepared to stand by the propaganda re 6000 Katyushas he's been peddling.

For those with any further interest in the matter, the Israeli army's tally of Hezbollah rockets fired, from the beginning of the current war up to Saturday, was 3000. If anyone would care to provide reliable data on Hezbollah rockets fired prior to that, I'd be most interested. Certainly Israel's routine violations of Lebanese airspace and other military actions in Lebanon since 2000 are well documented.

Meanwhile, on Channel 9 news, Sunday at 9 am, it was reported that Israel had engaged in 250 airstrikes and fired 4000 artillery shells in just 7 hours.

Strewth, once again you completely miss the point! If Hezbollah
fires thousands of rockets at Israel, what the hell do you think
the Israelis will do? If Israel does nothing, its considered weak
and the nutcases think they can win. If they do something, they are
doing too much. If Israel gives back land, then the claim is that
Hezbollah/Hamas won it back. If Israel goes into Lebanon to knock
out those firing missiles as Israel, then they must be wanting to
take over more land. Sheesh, arguing with some Arabs is just not
so easy :)

The problem is that there is no solution. If Hezbollah think that
they can drive Israel back into the sea, its not going to happen.
Taken to its ultimate conclusion, Mecca and Medina would vanish
first, so no more Islam, as nowhere to face for daily prayers.

If Arabs think that all Israelis should leave the Middle East,
will all Arabs living in Europe, the US, Australia etc, go back
to the Middle East, to make space for good Israeli migrants?
Now there is a question for you :)

Islam maniacs think that :

If they win a war, it is called a victory and that land will remain A Muslim Land FOREVER. For eg.. The wars started by Mohammed from Saudi Arabia- Conquering Spain, Turkey - Victory by mughals - Mongols .. Egypt, Muslim Africa, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.... These are ISLAMIC LANDS and will remain so FOREVER.

But, if the opposition wins in a war, it is called "Discrimination", " Occupation"...BS.

If you are courageous enough to fight a war, fight it. Don't cry and wage Jihad

Strewth! You address the organ grinder, but all you get are his monkey(s).

Tao re munitions expended – “because they have done so much damage - but never any figures.”

Tao, the answer is simple, the Israelis have no interest in declaring how many bombs etc, they have fired. They do have an interest in declaring how many rockets Hezbollah have fired.

Conversely, since Israel has, most likely fired more than 20, Hezbollah, being a bunch of retarded trolls, lack the arithmetic ability to add up how many Israeli bombs have landed (viz, the number exceeds the count of fingers and toes). As to effective damage, let us assume the targeting skills of Israeli artillery and flyers is likely significantly superior than the trolls, thus the effectiveness of Israeli defensive retaliation is always going to be greater than that achieved by Hezbollah.

Regarding your apparent support for such low life – I guess, birds of a feather flock together.





“Strewth! You address the organ grinder, but all you get are his monkey(s). “

Posted by Strewth,

Strange, this is the first time I have ever seen someone writing posts to themselves.

Doubtless, the common observations regarding the atrophy and diminishment of cognitive and reasoning skills must be further degraded than for those who simply talk to themselves

Col,

Is it too much to ask that, before you insult us further with your scribblings, you ascertain the difference between an exclamation and a nickname?

Re "retarded trolls", I believe they're still hanging onto Bint Jbail.

Had one still chosen sides as islamist bandits rocket northern Israel, let such chosers be in a jet besides Hizballah activists not intercepted recently by M15…

Is it in PLAIN ENGLISH?

Not really.

However, a core issue of a message is quite understandable.
Thank you for attention.