tao,
i believe your ideas have merit but the idea of a socialist australia seems an uphill battle that will never be won in our lifetime. i have been to several protests where socialist groups attended and read some literature but i don't claim to be at all familiar with all the ideas put forward. however, i do note the numbers are small and there is advocacy of uprisings and anarchy. while i don't disagree that some anarchy could go a long way in this country, i can easily see it will never happen, has never happened. australia used to be much more socialist leaning than it is now and as i said before, the only way i can see to change things is to join parties and unions which have voices. enough left leaning voices within a party can change things dramatically. now, i don't know about peter garrett but he seems to have kept his ideals relatively intact.

daggett: I'm no fan of Howard and the Liberal Party because they are politicians who want to tell me how to run my life.

The problem I have is that what I would like will never happen. I would like a completely privatised world where corporations didn't run the show and society was more community based -- I have no problem with private, voluntary philanthropy. However, that would require human beings to actually take responsibility for themselves and not defer to someone else, but the human race is basically full of it. Many don't want someone else (government, corporations, whomever) telling them how to run their lives, yet when asked, "well, if you don't like big corporations, why do you shop at a supermarket instead of supporting a local, small business (or better yet, grow your own)?" they then start grumbling about it being too expensive or too much hassle or something of the sort.

I don't know what to say about the whole thing. Maybe I'll just have to exist on the margins. I want some land in the country and to be fairly self-sufficient for food, energy, water, etc. and homeschool my children when I have them. I'm fully aware that regardless of my actions, the nonsense will continue around me, especially whilst we have cities. Of course, I get to have my cake and eat it too in a sense, such as enjoying medical technology developed in urban states.

tao: I don't believe dog eat dog capitalism is a political or economic endpoint. However, to deny man's competitive nature and free will is a very big oversight. I think the idea of class war and workers owning production is so antiquated because it totally denies 1) voluntary transactions between individuals that may be suitable and beneficial to both, 2) that not all labour is physical, ie. that there's intellectual and organisational labour too, 3) not all forms of labour are equal (eg. I'd hardly put most people in the same basket as Isaac Newton). The sort of anti-entrepreneurial ideas you spout have been tried and failed miserably.

Shorbe:

If you don’t believe dog-eat-dog capitalism is a political or economic endpoint, then what will be? Warm and fuzzy capitalism?

What do you mean by voluntary transactions?

What type of labourer is more essential to the well being of our society, garbage collectors or advertising executives? The hospital cleaner or the accountant? The school teacher, or the star football player? The aged care nurse, or the CEO? The volunteer fire fighter, or the lawyer who won’t give you his expertise for less than $300/hr? Have you ever thought about the fact that intellectual “labour” can only done when basic material needs are met? Who meets those basic needs, and are they any less valuable and essential to the functioning of society than the “entrepreneurs”. Why should “intellectual” or “organizational” labourers be better off materially than other types of labourers, when those others are the ones that enable them to do their intellectual labour?

All entrepreneurial means is making profit. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you appear to imbue the word with all sorts of positive useful meanings such as creativity, initiative and innovation, and assume that the only reason people will engage in such activity is to make profit. Do you think creative geniuses are primarily motivated by profit? Do you think that people only do useful things when profit is involved? I suggest you don’t judge others by your own standards.

Capitalism is often a hindrance to creativity and innovation. Consider the drugs that aren’t researched and produced cheaply because they aren’t profitable enough for pharmaceutical companies. Or patents for fuel efficient cars that have been bought up by oil companies to ensure they don’t get developed and cut into their profits. Or the reluctance by governments to invest in green energy research in order to protect corporate coal interests. “Entrepreneurship” often involves lying, cheating, and taking advantage of people – consider James Hardie – taking the company offshore to avoid liabilities - very entrepreneurial, the AWB Board – they got their profits and million dollar salaries– very entrepreneurial.

Perhaps you should reconsider the ideas you “spout”.

Tao, you are spot on with your last post, corporations are damaging mankind. Quick change of subject how many trees has mankind chopped down? This is the main cause of global warming,etc. I will in the future plant a large scale tree farm, thats what im talkin about.
The human race is in big trouble and the people need real leaders.

This is very deep stuff. Now back to unions, there must be a place for unions in society and work choices ruins that and the workplace in general.

Tao, I would bet you are not a Howard voter however most do not
confess they are or were. Howard voters in this forum show yourself
and explain why.

Belly,

Instead of giving us incomprehensible analogies and convenient Union slogans, please give us some real answers.

How do the unions and the ALP propose to protect workers conditions at the same time as maintaining and increasing investment incentive in Australia?

It is a serious question. Why should we trust you when you can't even answer a direct question?

If you don't know the answer, go and ask your Union bosses. I'll be interested to see what they say.

We all must remember that unions are your fellow workers not the
officials working for the union. When will people wake up to
that. Still waiting to hear from Howard Voters.