Belly – “Nore should they, a better way exists take away the need for effort and no progress will ever be made try Tony Blairs way it is Australian Labors future.”

What is Tony Blair’s way? Lying to the British people about WMDs in Iraq and taking them into an illegal “pre-emptive” (i..e. aggressive) war? Presiding over an accelerated transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich (even more so than under Thatcher)? Running down public health, education etc.? He sounds very similar to our esteemed (conservative) leader and his best friend W.

Consider the fact that during the Reaganite/Thatcherite era, the Labor party here was carrying out pretty much the same Reaganite/Thatcherite "reform".

It would appear that Labor is essentially no different to the conservatives.

In any event, Labor seems to be on the nose in Britain, having just lost over 300 seats in local elections. Where do the British people go now? Back to the Tories?

What exactly do you mean by “take away the need for effort and no progress will ever be made”? Are you suggesting that the only way workers will make an effort to work is if they are staring down the barrel of starvation and homelessness, or that they wouldn’t work under a socialist system? If so, you sound just like the right wing attacking lazy unproductive workers.

Socialism is not welfare. Under socialism, all of the products of all of the “effort” of workers would belong to everyone, not just a minority of capitalists to dole out as they see fit, and all basic needs would easily be met. There would be no need for welfare.

As I have previously posted, the inevitable logic of capitalism is that nation states must compete to create ever more attractive investment environments for capitalists – lower wages, lower working conditions, lower taxes etc. Do you accept this statement? If not, why not? If so, how will unions and the ALP be able to stop the destruction of working conditions while increasing the profitability of investment in Australia?

I look forward to your considered response.

floatinglili: I suspect your experiences are actually relatively common. Unfortunately, many on the left can't get past the politics of envy, and the "if you're not with us you're against us" rhetoric. ie. if you're not a worker you're a bastard, or at least ripe for taking down. Small business owners are capitalists, but they're hardly the bogeyman.

daggett: Thanks for the vilification based upon complete assumptions. I doubt you and I will see eye to eye on much and I doubt you'll actually stop frothing at the mouth for long enough for us to find out anyway.

tao: Have you ever met anyone who thought the world was flat? How did you respond? I'm kind of scratching my head about what to write to you right now.

Siltstone, I have no doubt you could get a job at the mines if you
wanted. You go and drive a truck and earn 100k and stop your crying.
You seem to be a jealous person and I guess just another selfish Howard voter.

shorbe, I agree that it it is unlikely that you and I will ever see eye to eye, but please don't hold back from explaining to other contributors to this forum, where you think I am wrong. (see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4452#41991).

tao, sorry not to have responded sooner. I have read and considered your contributions as well as the articles you have referred me to on the World Socialist Web Site. I still believe that your views are flawed but I will have to explain in greater detail, some other time.

Shorbe, believing that dog-eat-dog capitalism is the highest and most intelligent form of organisation of human beings and the economy, and that we can’t (and won’t) do any better, is akin to believing that the world is flat.

Keep scratching.

Thread is about unions but tao get realistic please.
From what void will you find enought voters to bring your goverment to life?
Why has Australia had this firmly in control conservative goverment?
Can it be the non conservative tree needs trimming? that dead wood branchs sprout only to lead no place and weaken the tree?
Your dream world will NEVER exist, a new Labor goverment in Australia will.
Workers? I never intended to say workers need constant movement but some very real bludgers with no intent to do anything other than colect wealfare would benefit by earning it in REAL jobs, not work for the dole.
That would be good for them and good for Australia.
Workers united will never be defeated even by the internal wood worm.