B.D.

you are still just repeating your disaproval and have still given no reasons why premarital sex or homosexuality is wrong. You can get as poetic as you like in elaborating your dissaproval, but I just ask for one simple reason why these things are bad.

It seems to me you are displaying a charachteristic christian subconscous sexual repression, and your unwillingness to engage in a rational discusssion on this issue just proves that. I challenge you, and the other christians to acknowledge your own brainwashing on this matter. Otherwise give a reason for such a hardline morality.

It is very dangerous to insist on any moral code, especially sexual morality, if you can give no reasons for your insistence.

“limits to sexual adventurousness, “

Of course bd, we can't have freedom with freedom can we.

Homosexuality is wrong to you, because your afraid of it. You preach pre marital restraint, yet confess to be unable to restrain yourself. It appears your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

“Its not something which can be effectively legislated.... but only by consensus and social sanction”

What do you class as social sanctions, jail, the stocks, re-education, blackballed, dunked. Your not being idealistic, just ridiculous. How do you stop whats been happening on this planet involving all species and continues to do so. Even with 2000 years of being told its evil, its still happening.

As your god created everything in perfection and totality, is this a mistake or are your beliefs a mistake. As appears by the constantly growing evidence available and the increasingly irrational and ridiculous statements by monotheists.

As to men taking advantage of young women, give us all a break. I remember being employed in a catholic girls college. It mattered not what my position was in the school, being the only male, I was constantly harassed by young women eager to increase their sexual experience. Not a rare occurrence, but a daily one involving many different aged girls, from 11 to 17 and sometimes their mothers.

Theres one option and many have expressed it, proper and full sexual education. Like religion, I wouldn't teach alternatives, but just mention them as being part of life. Just like different jobs.

Sadly the fearful religious will continue to push the irrational and unworkable upon us, as they do in every aspect of life.

'Fearful religious'? Hardly! Sex within marriage is celebrated by the majority of Christian and secular humanist people.
Yet surely anything which is good can also be lost! It is in relation to the moral question: what is the greater good? That we encounter the risk of disrespectful treatment of our sexual selves.

Perhaps it is the most defining attribute of our times that life has become dissociated from life-giving actions. "Life" is often defined selfishly as "my life", as if I am an island. I agree with B.D. in the sense that our bodies are the one gift we offer our spouse in marriage. Anything which compromises our freedom to give this gift wholeheartedly, ought to be recognised for what it is: harmful to our ability to trust and believe in our loveable nature.

Therefore, 'chastity' becomes a way of timing one's intimacy so as to maximise the benefits to the relationship with one's future or present spouse. Information and work to understand our natural, combined fertility hinges upon discipline with time, ('disco' in Latin meant 'to learn').

www.celebratelove.com.au has information available about the mutuality of man and woman in God. We are made in the image and likeness of God, and called to become one in Christ Jesus. Private nakedness is a part of the sign of a wife and husband's love for oneanother, and time to be naked together in marriage enables greater intimacy.

I remember a billboard from the side of the road.
Ch_ _ch Who's missing?
The letters sum up the reality. We are the Church. Do not be afraid of encountering God. He is forgiving and delightful.

Yabby says in part: “As a social species, its a more pleasant one, if we don't go around purposefully inflicting emotional pain on others through deceit. Emotional pain can be more enduring then physical pain in lots of ways. So boys should think of that before they tell girls lies. They should also think just a little about the consequences of their actions on the lives of others.”

I’m kind of wondering where Yabby lives, to come up with such tautology – murky and muddy perhaps but apparently quite comfy …

Renee,
read you bible.
Nakedness is the perfect state of gods creation, the way human beings were made. The privatisation and shame of their nakedness is the very symbol of sin itself, according to Genesis anyway.

read your bible
Song of Solomon 6:8 king Solomon's seduction of yet another virgin.
"There are threescore queens(wives), and fourscore concubines(live in lovers), and virgins without number.
My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her."

you say..."Therefore, 'chastity' becomes a way of timing one's intimacy so as to maximise the benefits to the relationship with one's future or present spouse."
the obvious response to this is that if someone has worked out their sexual identity and hang ups before they settle down, they are capable of choosing appropriate life partners and lifestyles better than if they have not yet fully discovered themselves.

your comments about sexuality and fertility is interesting. what is your opinion about contraception? similarly what is your attitude to masturbation?

we may freely give our bodies during sex, but we get it back at the end. My body does not belong to the first person that I had sex with, nor does it belong to my wife. But bodies are fun to share

Hi Kanute
well.. I'll try to answer your question, but I doubt it will completely satisfy.

Pre/extra/deviate sex is 'wrong' in the sense that it

-deprives us of the 'best' that we can experience. You may not agree with this, because while I speak from experience, and also belief, if you have not had the experience or share the belief it will seem some remote irrelevancy to you.

Sex is always enjoyable/pleasurable on the physical level, but outside of its intended place, I believe it will not give the emotional/heart fulfillment it can give, also, it could also produce very negative psychological consequences the further it goes from Gods place.
Obviously, I'm speaking from a faith position, not a 'legislative' so you don't need to worry too much :)

On the Song of Songs, it is indeed a beautiful story of love. The personal circumstances of the author are unknown to us in terms of his mental outlook at the time of writing. He may well have realized the futility of the numerous wives and concubines by this time. You can glean this from Ecclesiastes, where he refers to having 'tried all manner of pleasure' in seeking meaning and fulfilment in life.

I certainly don't find selfish exploitative seduction in the Song.

If we are not able to ascribe 'wrongfulness' to certain sexual behaviour, does this mean you are ok with bestiality and incest ?
The 4 major 'no no's in Scripture re sex are:

1/ Homosexual
2/ Bestial
3/ Incestual
4/ Extra marital

I think 2 and 3 would be accepted by most people, but I have seen people question even those on this forum in an article written.
In the same article, there was also reference to how we 'stigmatize' people who enjoy sexual experiences with children..... go figure where absence of moral declarations will lead.