"There are no scientific proof that homosexuals are born “that way" (except for extremely rare biological abnormalities). "

Coach, there is in fact a mountain of evidence, it depends on how much proof you need. We can create gay rats and monkeys in the lab.
If we did the same things to human guinea pigs, there would be an ethical outcry, so that prevents the absolute "proof" that you want.

But you can think about it for yourself. If you see a pretty girl and find her attractive, is it because you stop and say to yourself that your free will will deem her to attract you, or are you innately attracted to her? Some things come kind of naturally, some things we think about. Sexual attraction comes naturally, its part of our genetic make up. That is exactly why I will never condem gays for the way they are. Today we understand that all brains start as female, various hormones then affect those developing brains during fetal growth, which determines sexual inclination later in life. If something disturbs or alters that development, it can affect the fetus later in their life. So how can I condem people for what comes naturally to them, through no fault of their own?

Go out and look around, at somebody who you find no attraction to at all, of whatever gender. Then try your freewill argument, to suddenly find them stunning. You will fail, I betcha.

coach, I think Yabby has covered the no proof argument well. It boils down to the idea that you are not convinced by the proof - kind of like my friend Scout and I on the DV gender issue, we each choose to give the most weight to the proof which fits best with our own world view. Fairly normal behaviour as long as you know that you are doing it and take it into account.

I don't particulary want homosexuality promoted to my son as a better alternative. I have a personal preference for heterosexual lifestyles. That personal preference does not give me the right to tell other consenting adults what choices they can make with each other nor does it give me the ethical right to try and have the law treat them as criminals.

Likewise I don't want my son taught that your belief system (or ones like it) are "normal" or a better alternative. I regard it as a sad vestage of more primitive times. I wonder if some people have a genetic disposition to a belief in God or if it is entirely a learned behaviour. If as an adult he chooses such a belief system for himself I will be saddened but will still love and accept him.

I find it very hard to take the christain churches posturing on morals at all seriously when so much of the church does not take them seriously or when the outcomes seem to be more destructive done your way than in an informed less absolute manner. The "just don't do it" method does not work well - inside or outside the church.

Eternal judgements - we've been through that before. If your God can't manage what he has here now (the church) then I'll take my chances on a judgement day and hope that his superviser intervenes and brings some common sense to the table.

R0bert

Excellent posts from Yabby and Rex.

Homosexual behaviour occurs naturally in the animal world - doesn't have to be induced in a laboratory. The level of homosexuals in humans is generally deduced to be at around 10%. Hardly a percentage to panic about and not anything I'm concerned about. Most gays and lesbians make valid contributions to our society - they tend to be better educated than average and have every right to form loving relationships with one another.

Rex, I agree we need to relax about our sexuality - there is nothing more exhilarating than swimming in the nude.

R0bert, I think you are being over anxious about your son. He can't be "made" gay. He either is or isn't. Either way I hope you will love him for who he is.

My very first sexual experience occurred when I was 11 with another girl the same age (who I later realized was gay) - I didn't really understand what she was on about so nothing really happened. The experience certainly didn't turn me into a lesbian, that's because I was already 'wired' as hetero - as our sexuality is determined from birth. As Yabby says we start as 'female' till the hormones kick in for males to develop. This is another reason why babies are sometimes born with both genitalia or no genitals at all. I suppose that the religious would have us believe that these babies 'chose' their ambiguity!

Regards

This question of "naturalness" disturbs me. There is so much about modern life that is not natural, such as 9-5 work, the nuclear family, industrialisation, motor transport, T.V.etc. In fact it seems that our whole lifestyles are created to fit the circumstances we find ourselves in rather than some inate given. Why do we single out sexuality to judge it's naturalness? Do we challenge the naturalness of the boss/worker relationship ?

A better question, it would seem to me, is does it hurt anyone? What in real terms is wrong with it? - if there is nothing, then let's focus on the things that do do damage instead, such as domestic violence, rape and pedophilia.

An unnatural obsession with homosexuality is a diversion from the real issues of love, respect and mutuality. If we were more concerned about these issues we may be able to tackle predatory sexuality, be it from gays, priests or married people. But as long as we stay in irresolvable circular arguments about gods intention when s/he created gay folks, we are just confusing the truth of sexuality - both good and bad.

hmmmm...guys guys guys...we've deviated off topic...with bible rants and confessions and Big Questions...

sex education...it's important...please refer to the websites on the above post by me...it doesn't just question what kids are learning IT OUTLINES what they are learning and asks if it's enough. How do we change the status quo? Who do we lobby...? All this other stuff is fascinating but not relevant...who cares who's gay or straight or a christian? Knowledge is still a vital tool in this thing we call life...so lets arm our kids as much as possible - in everything...and let them make INFORMED decisions.

Scout, I'm hoping that you have misunderstood my intent. Not particularly worried about gay influences on my son - I'm much more concerned about the activities of another group who actively target children (and specifically my son) trying to draw children into the groups sad delusions. Two guesses what group that would be.

More on topic
I suspect that our perceptions of our sexuality is influenced to some extent by social conditioning.

That could result in some fairly mixed up people - gays trying to be straight and visa versa, people with unhealthy sexual attitudes and behaviours etc. Therein lies one of the real dangers in "the moral minorities" attempts to force everybody to conform to what they think their imaginary friend demands. People being trained or forced to live a lie which does not fit them. Not only are their own lives harmed but also the lives of partners caught in the confusion, innocent victims if their confusion leads to sexual violence etc.

When you try to bend people to fit a space that they don't fit into some will come out bent but not necessarily in the manner you expected.

Cheers
R0bert