Fellow Human raises an interesting point about integration/assimilation. Without participating in modern financial arrangements, aren’t the Muslim community setting themselves up for a situation where generation after generation they slowly get poorer and poorer relative to the wider community?

Just so it is clear what I am saying, by missing out on the capital gains (above interest and inflation) available when a loan is invested, after generations will (or has) this not lead to a ghettoising of the community? And won’t a lack of financial understanding, lead Muslims to just blame the wider society as they notice themselves falling behind?

I guess what GZ is having apoplexy over is the difference in values evidenced by your willingness to follow a law that is supposedly instituted directly by your god. The fact you are willing to acknowledge laws from a god, would logically mean you are less likely to accept laws instituted by mere humans. Fellow Human, would you be willing to contravene your religious laws, if they did conflict with Australian civil laws? If not, then I would argue that you should probably be denied citizenship. What are your thoughts on this, do you think you could accept Australian laws that contradict your religious laws?

Doesn’t the pledge of allegiance explicitly say that citizens MUST accept and honour democratic principles, the foremost of which is laws made by its citizens and not religious authorities? How do you reconcile your religious obligation to disdain secular laws with your citizenship which requires you to honour secular laws?

Thanks for continuing to post to this forum, it would be pointless to discuss these issues without a Muslim participating.

Ps. Regarding you statement – “If you think poorly of women rights and inheritance in the Quran, then what do you think of woman rights in the Bible? for a starter there isn’t any.” I would point out that we are told not to make distinctions between races, sexes, castes etc ‘there is neither Jew nor gentile, man nor women…. All are one in Christ Jesus”. Ran out of room for more.

Hey Fellow_Human

P.U.P's are posters from a Parallel Universe. They read an entirely different meaning into my posts to what I have written.

Boaz David

On the last census roughly 68% of Australians identified as being Christian. See my post:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4161#32202

However, just like Muslims, Christians are not a single homogenous group. DUH!

Many Christians believe in evolution, in women's sovereignty over their bodies, in freedom to worship whatever set of beliefs anyone chooses, in tolerance, many Christians are not paranoid about other religions and believe in separation of Church and state, many Australians write in census forms that they are Christians even when they have never even read a bible. Many Christians are Catholics, Protestant, Anglican or practise Buddhism and hold completely different views to you BD.

These are the diverse groups that are part of the rainbow population of Australia - they are no more a single representation of an Aussie than I am - 6th generation Anglo/Celtic. We are all Australian and much, much more.

However, a star chamber which calls itself the Lyons Forum has control of our government. These are Christians who believe in a very fundamental version of Christianity. They are making decisions which affect all Australians. They tried to control medical procedures for women, they want all Australians to comply within a very narrow definition of values. Their values are not necessarily your values (unless you are willing to admit that you agree with every single decision made by the Howard government, I know from your posts you don't).

Out of the 68% of 'christian' Australians - what percentage actually practise this religion? If you asked my mother - she would tell you she is a Baptist. Then ask when she last attended church, then ask if she believes in the virgin birth, Jesus' resurrection. She would answer "2 years ago - last funeral she attended, no and no".

You want to believe you represent 68% Boaz? In your dreams. But I appreciate that you are trying to communicate with me as opposed to lecture.

Gotta love OLO :o)

Fellow_Human,

You've done it AGAIN !!

But honestly I'm sick of pointing out your errors in logical reasoning terms. Aziliz is a whole lot better than you !

My conclusion: When someone becomes a Muslim, his intellect spirals downwards. The more stupid he becomes, the better he gets as a Muslim, until a point he will not be able to extricate himself.

(Would someone also agree with me that stupid people become Muslims in the first place?)

Sorry for yet another abuse... had to get this off my chest.

fide mae makes a good point: "Thanks for continuing to post...would be pointless to discuss...without a Muslim participating."

So FH listen good, I've given up on you. But do answer fide mae's queries please. Thanks.

fide mae, I suspect that most of the christains posting on this site have a different view of some fundamentals of christainity than views you have posted.

You could check with Coach and BD if I'll get a chance to accept Jesus at judgement once I've seen him. I'll be very surprised if they say yes.

Likewise most fundy christains regard the bible as a lot more than a set of guidelines even if they think that their salvation is by faith. Again check with coach and BD if rules from God override human government laws when a conflict occurs. In my time as a christain there was plenty of celebration of the hidden church in countries where the government interfered in the official church. Support for "Gods Smuggler" who was famous for smuggling bibles into countries illegally, missionaries going into countries on visa's that were not about missionary work, etc. Most of the christians I have known clearly believe that Gods law overrides human law when there is a conflict.

So please check with some of your fellow christains and see if what you ask of FH applies to them as well. I'll be very surprised if you get a clear answer from any of the Fundies that human law overrides what they believe God requires of them when a conflict occurs.

Good point recently about becoming entrenched in a position because of the debate, it is something that those of us who want to learn and contribute must always watch out for.

coach, maybe you could explain your mandate to interfere in other peoples domestic arrangements. Keeping in mind that your God has apparently chosen to leave the issue until judgement day and that s/he does not appear to speak clearly against polygamy in the old or new testament.

R0bert

Scout,

Illogical as ever - sorry.

>>However, a star chamber which calls itself the Lyons Forum has control of our government. These are Christians who believe in a very fundamental version of Christianity.<<

What is in your view of "fundamental Christianity"?

As far as I'm guessing there must be some catholics, anglicans, baptists, nominals, etc... in that group that seems to be irritating your spheres.

Fellow_Human,

Just for the sake of keeping you here longer on OLO - Apples with apples he? Nice try little fellow - wanting to be counted as part of the fruit basket now?

In Christianity men and women are equal. So the state law is just fine by me. At least it can always be amended when necessary - not stuck in the seventh century like some.

PS Your cousin Mohammad from Brisy did a good job on Today Tonight Monday. The resemblance is striking; except he seems to have a better grip on Aussie laws and women’s rights than you.

fide mae,

Very goog points - I was waiting for someone to raise the issue of "citizenship" and disloyalty to the law of the land.

The majority of Muslims in Australia have very little regard or respect to their Australian Identity. They love the benefits of our generosity – but their sole loyalty will always be to their own mother land and ultimatly the“Ummah” of Islam.

Common Johnny Howard – you started to show some Testosterone last year regarding immigration laws reforms – or are we getting too close to the next election?
.

In the persuit of proper legal systems and being a responsible individual, one sees a need here to spray some liberal doses of disinfectant on all these absolutes, bits of perceived magic and miracles.

In the real world what we may possess is a will to truth because there is nothing more necessary than this process. For many people especially those uninfected there is this will to not allow ourselves to be deceived and for many it is also the will not to deceive. However, truth, like everything else, for we human beings can only be relative because truth is only truth in relation to things that are untrue.
e.g.
If there were no lies, everything would be true, and therefore truth would not exist. Good couldn't exist without evil, because without evil to compare it to, everything would be good, so nothing would be good. It's the same idea as far as truth is concerned. For truth to exist, something must be proven false. For instance, It's truth that the earth revolves around the sun. However, if it was not stated false that the sun revolves around the earth, the first statement could not be concidered true. Inversely, without believing the first statement true, one could not concider the second statement untrue.

Let's then look into one such "absolute truth" from BD i.e. Christ died for our sins. Ignoring supposed theological entities and absolutes we may see that Jesus was a good bloke who didn't die from the crucifixion but was patched up by some friends and went to live to a ripe old age in Kashmir. Of course he told his mates he would come back some day to pay a visit but he never did so.

Surely one does not want to be deceived under the supposition that it is injurious to be deceived?