GZ_Tan, hope you enjoyed the classes, time seemed to pass quickly.

"Social benefit rort by Muslims who flaunt Australian Laws should be investigated and addressed as a matter of urgency."

Agreed but why limit it to just muslims? Could also check on those asians who have done the same (not to mention the flouting of our fishing laws).

Could also have a look at my anglo ex who seems to stay within the letter of the law but not the intent with her manipulation of child residency arrangements to maximise benefits and minimise work. It's not just muslims who disregard the letter and/or intent of our laws and the system we have in place to help the needy.

We have a wider problem with welfare misuse in that many in the community regard welfare in it's various forms as a legitimate alternative to paid employment rather than as a last ditch protection against an inablility to support themselves.

coach, a lot of focus on FH's question answering but not much answering from you. I'll try again with the first and ask a copuple that I was hoping fide mae would ask you.
- please explain your mandate to intefer in other peoples lives given that your god has allowed people to have free will until judgement day.
- Do I get a chance to accept Jesus after I've seen him or is time up the moment I die? (yes/no answer will be fine)
- Do Gods laws override human laws when and if a perceived conflict occurs? (yes/no answer will be fine)

R0bert

Dear Aziliz.
I'm going to stick with the widows thing, like a good doggy with a bone :)
Because I think we can venture into productive and fruitful dialogue on this one issue.

Let me complement you though, on your breadth of reading. Your summary of the events in Spain was very good and quite accurate. I think we probably read the same article.
Back to wanton widows :)
Ok.. what you are missing is the 'big picture'... yes, you are splitting straws in your effort to see those monkeys mate.. lets take a deep breath and try to get in touch with what Paul is saying here.

You seem to be hung up on the word 'wanton', perhaps a better translation might have been 'more prone to physical temptation' due to their young and productive age. Paul alludes to this very real part of life, which I'm sure (unless you have castrated yourself like Augustine) you are aware of, just like me.

The next point I'd make, is that the idea of a young women who has been lets say divorced by an unbelieving husband, and experienced rejection by his family, and perhaps does not have much of a family of her own... would be left to beg or hook is ludicrous considering the many exortations to love the family of God first and foremost.
We have such women in our own fellowship...

Back on Topic.

The problem with Sharia law, is that while it is quite possible to follow it at a personal level, this does not change the fundamental issue of it being the Law of an Islamic State, and one cannot separate Sharia into segments, like being a bit pregnant. The goal or focus of Sharia is 'submission' (i.e. "Islam") in the context of an Islamic state.

Call to Christ.

I hope and pray you will open the door of your heart to Jesus, Son of God and God the Son, Lord and Saviour. I call on you to do this, in His name and enter forgiveness and new life.

Philo,

Marriage and divorce for Muslims is based on intent & announcement:
a)I intend to marry this woman and b) announce to people (as witnesses) that I took this woman as a wife. A divorce for Muslims is a divorce (legal and religious). I think you are applying the Christian model of ‘civil & church’ divorce being separate procedures.

Here is the question: under Australian laws today a man can have multiple de factos (whether married to one of them or not) and can technically have a child with everyone of them provided he supports them. This is actually a real issue because in a secular model everything is based on logic and consent. The question is this: what happens if an Australian (non-Muslim) reached an agreement with 2, 3 or even 5 adult women to be married to all of them under civil laws based on their consent. How can you stop them without pulling the religious card?

GZ Tan,

You need anger management part two “Analyse that”.
You failed again to substantiate your statements of True & False.
Here is where we can agree/ Disagree with your statements:
- Should we not apply Shariah laws in Australia on the basis that a secular state should not accommodate religious beliefs of individuals or groups YES/TRUE.
- Should the criteria be on the basis of conflict of alignment with Australian laws: NO/FALSE.

Coach,

Maybe a step by step guide will help:
- Coach claims that Quran teachings on women rights & inheritence (all part 4) is less than the Christian teachings.
- FH (ie me) asks him to point me to the women rights section in the Bible (not opinions by a bunch of people developed last 50 years).
- Coach failed to provide anything but his personal opinion.
By the way, the Quran claims the great wisdom of creation is to for us to get to know each other (Letaarafu: google it). While according to you its Armageddon and splitting the world into good and evil. War & blood is eminent your teachings. Where is the Love in Armageddon?

F_Human: It's tiresome reading your pathetic letters where you are trying to defend the un or indefensable that is pagan islam.
You ask where is love, what does a moslem know about love? Or is a moslem male showing love when he brutally murders his sister/cousin et-al who has been suspected of seeing an unbeliever.
Look at any islamic nation - would you like to reside in any one of them? If not corrupt total dictatorships then they are quassi-dictatorships.
When reading your letters always in the back of my mind is - "al-taqiyya". So you are not completely trustworthy my heathen friend.
In closing you like many other God bashers are getting religion mixed up with Christianity. When you attack the Bible you do it out of ignorance. numbat

Robert, "Do I get a chance to accept Jesus after I've seen him or is time up the moment I die? (yes/no answer will be fine)" - If you have lived your life to a standard acceptable to God (not any church or belief system) then yes. Not if you promulgate ridiculous views (in my view, but maybe not God's), which may leave me out of this meeting for all I know.

FH "Muslims can and do invest in VC type of model such as property funds, industry specific funds like mining, provided that is a socially responsible investment" - but you need the money to invest, my post pointed out that you will not be able to borrow the money with the intention of the capital gains outwaying the interest and inflation. another point on a similar vein is that of you chequing account. If you have $100000 in it, it will only be worth $97000 after a year (inflation), accounts with interest account for this by paying larger interest rates the more you invest.

FH- I am rather disappointed you did not answer my question regarding which law would take precedence, islamic or australian secular? This attitude of only answering what suits, although found in all posters, can easily lead to the assumption you are answering in what you believe to be an acceptable way (to the wider community), what people commonly term spin, and which the muslim community is charged of more and more. It would greatly help the veiw of those on OLO if you were willing to answer all question, not just spin your way out of it.

Claiming there are no conflict between Shariah and secular is not reasonable. What if a caliphate was formed covering most or all of the muslim world and the caliph called for Jihad (which would be a legal jihad under shariah, not like the current one). would you accept the call to fight against australia in this situation? if not how can you claim to follow shariah, if so how can you claim to be australian?

Philo: Then the man is a cheater and deserves whatever he gets for defrauding the welfare system and making a mockery of the Islamic conception of marriage. Plain and simple.

Many of the scholars I have spoken to accept that a divorce is both legal and Islamic at the same time. In fact, some even encouraged women in troublesome situations to seek a common law divorce because it affords them the rights and protections that their husband and communities conception of 'Islamic marriage' did not! Don't tarnish everyone with the same brush.

What is the real issue? When I got married, I went to a government registered marriage celebrant, who happened to be a Muslim Shaykh. We filled in the forms and signed the contracts, and did the Islamic ceremony (which really just amounts to the same plus some dogma), and all was both perfectly legal and Islamic.

Marriage is a contractual obligation between 2 people, and can be treated as such. If there is a dispute on the contract, that is what courts and other procedures are for.

Scamming the system is just that, scamming the system. I am interested in your response to F_H, however.