Aziliz - "But my point, apart from acknowledging a debt of gratitude to nonchristian and nonwestern societies for making possible the technology we have today" were we also lucky to have the muslims in spain teaching good christians about holy wars, so that spanish christianity could go on to have there own holy wars (crusades)?

"You think you aren't good in yourself but good by association with the 'good' christ. You don't have to be kind-caring-logical-reasonable-responsible for your actions towards others or good simply because you have Christ on your 'team'." close aziliz, christians believe that it is not good works that get one into heaven, rather it is faith. BUT THAT FAITH IS KNOWN TO BE TRUE WHEN IT (THE FAITH) PRODUCES GOOD WORKS. Christians do good works, not to get into heaven, which is a rather lame reason, but because we see Christ in the poor and oppressed, thus we wish to acknowledge his love for us by showing our love for him.

I too would like to thank you for addressing Christianity and asking questions, rather than disparaging it simply because it is a religion. I also like your point about the bullying element, I have recently taken some time away from OLO as I felt the ridiculous (in my view) ideas of the left were pushing me towards a more radical right position than what I actually have reasoned my way through. I found that when this happened I was pushed towards a type of groupthink that I found to be unhelpful. It would be great if OLO would slow the posting process down so one could come back the next day, after some down time, before actually posting.

coach, you wrote

"God does not tolerate evil but He allows it to exist by His Grace (until judgement day of course), His Love of all people (good and evil), and His Patience is infinite."

which was pretty much my understanding of christain teaching on the matter. What I don't get is how you and others then turn it into an attempt to enforce your rules now. If your God says "I'll deal with this later" why can't you accept his decision and get on with living your own life as well as you can rather than worrying so much about the choices others make?

"They chant: TRUTH is whatever is true to each individual...as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else...(yeah right RObert)" - can you point me to where I chanted that please. I'm quite happy to think that some things people hold to be true is a load of brown smelly stuff. What I might chant if I liked chanting is "Allow people to make their own choices (right or wrong) as long as those choices do not unreasonably hurt others". Not notably inconsistent with what you said God has decided on the matter even if it does not roll off the tongue smoothly.

mickijo, that might be a glass half full/half empty thing. There is always the possibility that the other wives might get sick of the one who does the most griping and whining and deal with it for you. I don't know how well it works, as BD said polygamy may not have brought happiness to OT types just lots of children (doesn't BD keep advocating for people to have more kids?). My point is that it is not mine or anybody elses business to tell others how to arrange their lives (between consenting adults). If someones God has an issue with the arrangements they make she can tell them in person at a convenient time.

scout, great post and I like the P.U.P theory, it explains some things much better than my theory of a few weeks ago.

R0bert

RObert: Sadly you joke about going to hell, you do this not knowing God, not knowing about Christianity, not knowing about the Bible and lastly you haven't a clue just what this hell is. Please bear with me and picture a number of children in a womb - how many doesn't matter. They whilst in this womb hear a voice from one that claims to be their father [I belive one can hear while in the womb, if I ever did I've forgotten] Anyhow this voice is telling these unborn how very soon he and they will be able to walk hand in hand along a beach and even paddle in the ocean. The voice continues [remember it is only a story to get a point across] if you do not want this then you will be stillborn and be permantly separated from me your father.
Now those who believe this voice though not quite knowing just what is in store for them are nevertheless excited, they have faith and believe. The others mock the voice - what's walking, what's a beach, what's hand in hand? It's a con they shout this father does not exist. We are quite comfortable here and we have been here forever and as we see it it will continue. And if this voice is telling us the truth then we would sooner be stillborn with our friends and we will have a ball separated from this father figure.
Not an intelligent decision which is made in total ignorance eh? You my friend are in danger of making a similar stupid decision based on absolute ignorance. numbat

numbat, firstly thanks for the tone of the post and the obvious concern. Posts like that make a much bigger impact than those posts of yours being discussed elsewhere.

My involvement in the "Hell" scenario was a response to rednecks fun inclusion of me in his post. Redneck and I don't often have much common ground here so when there is some it's nice to take a moment and enjoy it. I don't believe in hell and very few of the posts on these threads suggest that any of us take it seriously. Would christians behave the way they do if they really believed in a hell which they might be contributing to others going to because of their hatred? I doubt it. Rather we might see christains calling for mass immigration to bring the mission field closer to home, we'd see christains falling over backwards to communicate in a manner that was worth listening to (more like that last post of yours) than the constant bashing of the different. There does not seem to be much belief in hell around here.

To use your analogy the voice you talk about I hear telling the kids "you are no good, never have been, never will be, whatever you've got it's because of me, accept that and you'll be ok otherwise I'll reject you" (For all have sinned etc). Added to that there are a bunch of other voices out there, one is talking about five pillars and some easy steps to be sure of his approval, some about how I live my life and the clearest one is saying "find out for yourself".

No I don't really "hear voices" but I am confident based on the evidence available to me that the christain god is not one I want to hang around with, now or for eternity. I like the find out for yourself thing, it seems the best use of my life that I can make.

R0bert

Oh, so you are not a Muslim, Azilitz? Sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you.

How you figure that that chucking the Moslems out what had been Celtic Spain destroyed all scientific research in the entire Muslim world is beyond me.

My prediction is that the Asian people will become the next world powers. They are not as stupid as white people because they have never embraced this multiculturalism BS. There is no Muslim immigration to countries like China, Taiwan, Korea or Japan so they don’t have a crime problem or a terrorism problem. I admire the social cohesion of Asians, and I am sorry that white people became so self centred and carried away with the concept of individualism that we forgot why social cohesion is important. The Asians are lot more racist than us and it does not worry them one bit. Within their own countries, their people’s welfare comes first. I admire that.

As for the West invading Muslim countries, I would prefer it if we just put up a fence between the Muslim world and ourselves and let them stone each other to death for all I care. It does not matter who is in charge over there, because the only thing that they have that we want is oil. So whoever is in charge, they will come to us to do business. Throughout history, the advanced societies of the world have had to thump some sense into barbarian skulls to make them think straight.

The Roman emperor Tiberius got it right when he pulled the Roman legions out of Germania. He could not see any profit in civilising the Germans. Tiberius said that the Germans were just not worth the trouble. I think that Tiberius woud say the same thing today about the Muslim and African worlds.

Kay,

"Why can't "true love" and religion be married? I do not understand. Can you clarify please?”

I'll try.

It depends on your understanding of the words “love” and “religion” I guess.

God IS love - Agape love: pure unselfish love (passion of the cross).

As opposed to "Phelia love” meaning fond of, brotherly love or mateship kind of love,

And "Eros love” which is: lust, erotic, sexual.

The word “Religion” to me suggests “Religiosity” = organised ritualistic system, church buildings/ cathedrals, hierarchy of priests/ ministers, a set of dos and don’ts to stay in line, etc… which in my mind is what most people’s perception/ experience of Christianity.

Christianity is a Relationship - being part of God's family a disciple of Jesus – learning to love as he does.

No amount of Religiousity: "law keeping," or "righteous acts," or " rituals," or "works" will ever make us good enough for God.

But when we have love we cannot hurt others or ourselves, nor can we disobey God’s laws.

Does that mean that we are now somehow lawless? Are God's Ten Commandments now abolished? Of course not, but we are motivated by love and not governed by “religion”.

Hope it was helpful Kay.

Scout,

Definitely not paranoia – anyone with more than one brain cell knows the threat of Islam IS REAL. Talking about it without much understanding its evil nature is the danger I was eluding to.

You are right about existing (true life is only found in jesus) on parallel spheres and universes...

RObert,

Hell is a true place. Believe it and prepare for it like Scout has (Except she probably thinks it’s one big party down there).

You said things like: “What business is it of mine how many people are involved in a marriage as long as they are consenting adults?”

If you really truly believe there is nothing wrong with that statement – then you are in bigger trouble than you can imagine.

Your decision to live on a different sphere from God is just the beginning of your descent to Hell.

Enjoy the slide.