BD-I do get it, you don't have to be good because christ is-that makes you better than everyone else and go to heaven. That's precisely what I object to. You think you aren't good in yourself but good by association with the 'good' christ. You don't have to be kind-caring-logical-reasonable-responsible for your actions towards others or good simply because you have Christ on your 'team'.

dysphoricmaniac-yes, it's even somewhat worse than parliament question time, don't you think? Yet, not much better, they govern the country.

There are many who've learned if they insult and bully enough others will give up. They do it because it works-many have left this list because of them.

Having served on a lot of committees and boards I have seen many who behave in similar ways--also in less direct ways to push out anyone who dissents to their views. If reasonable people give up, the unreasonable bullies dominate. Where the most valuable members of a committee because of their knowledge, talent, experience and reasonableness, withdraw because they don't like 'the politics'.

If reasonable people don't stand up to this you wind up having simple-minded bullies running the show.

Hey-Scout-good to see you back.

Fida Mae, if you don't follow the Biblical tenets, laws, suggestions or whatever you call them, you're cast into the pit to suffer for all eternity. The laws aren't mild little suggestions--if you don't follow them watch out for the Judgement day, you'll be tortured by scorpions for five months and that's just a taste(Read revelations).

You say the christians were questioning Paul! Paul lays curses on those who oppose him:

1Tim.1:20
1tim.2:17-18
2Tim.2:16-18/4:14-15
Galatians1:8-9

Constantine the Great started christianising the Roman Empire, the repression of other religions and 'heretical' christians followed. In the past 800 years we have struggled to get Christianity out of politics because its laws are too repressive and cruel. Your post is about what you wish christianity was rather than what it is-read the bible and follow up with a good book on christianity in politics from the reign of Constantine onwards.

Great Robert! Fundamentalism vs. Rationality-exactly

fide mae,

U wrote: "Christians do not have laws.... Christ came to write the law on our hearts... without... idea of religious law"

This provides a 'missing link' which had puzzled me for quite some time.

It's a 'missing link' for my assertion that Islam is a CARNAL religion (as opposed to being spiritual) - Islam is law-based, but Christianity is not...

For example, Muslim fundamentalists believe dying for Islam is a sure way to paradise. To die... involves a physical act... a carnal act... it comes from a perception of laws.

Now consider the spiritual side:

** Coach: "Jesus' teachings could be condensed into one word: LOVE."

** BD: "Jesus said: If a man so much as LOOKS at a woman with lust in his heart, he has ALREADY committed adultery with her."

Such spiritualism is what Muslims CANNOT grasp. Instead, they talk about peace and submission, something with distinct selfish undertones, something very carnal. They regard a woman who's not covered as being 'cheap'. If that woman is raped, well that'd be her own fault. They do not have the idea that 'lust equals adultery'.

Hey Aziliz... believe it or not, I'm kinda warming to you :)

I rather enjoy the fact that you are bringing 'difficult' passages to our notice and providing an opportunity to discuss them.

I wish I had the word allowance to address each point in detail.

I think your point about the widows deserves further comment, because you do raise an issue of Pauls seeming divided mindset on the situation of the young widows.

You should remember that Paul is writing a 'Pastoral' letter here.
Its worth remembering that in this 'tricky' area of male female relationships, Paul made a distinction (1 Corinthians) between his 'opinion' as a believer and 'commands from the Lord'. So, it looks to me that Paul is speaking in a more general 'management' mode here than 'commands of the Lord'.

Another important point in the form of a question:

"Who would know early Christian/Roman culture and social attitudes best...Paul who lived at the time, or Aziliz in 2005" ?

I think we both know the answer to that. So, his comments about the behavior of young widows are, on the balance of probabilities, more accurate than yours :)

You also said "Paul CURSED those who opposed him" as if Pauls ministry was something that arose purely out of his own head ..(?) you seem to have forgotten that Paul was judge, jury and executioner almost toward Christians and he met Christ on the road to Damascus, which turned his life around. He was called to be an Apostle, he didn't drag it out of a lucky dip at the local market me boy.

1Tim 1:20 "Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."

Did Paul 'curse' them ? what did they 'do' to incur this 'handing over to Satan' ? what does that actually mean ? What was the 'goal' ?

"to be taught"...... i.e. whatever it meant (probably simply put out of the Church) it was remedial.

cheers n regards

Have a look at this one. Really interesting

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Puts the arguement over whose book has greater validity into prespective

Benjamin,

"Go and cry" ... indeed.

The other day I nearly cried too, listening to "I've Never Been To Me" (sang by Charlene) and many of my all-times favourites. I am always touched by beautiful music and melody. Not to mention dances, beautiful ballet dancers in graceful motion, etc...etc...

Imagine what the world is like today, had it an Islamic world from day one?

Such a thought would send shiver down the spine of sanity.

An Islamic world that is over-populated with 'walking deads', women covered in black shroud... filth-laden barren earth infested with Talibans, constantly on the lookout to safeguard Shariah laws ... Five times a day, loud prayers from innumerable Mosques would synchronise in an dreadful monotone of ....O Allahu Akbar... ..O Allahu Akbar...

It'd be a dark and grey world where the bright colour of flowers would be futile.. like throwing pearls to swine to be trampled upon.

No sweet melody, no ballet, no beauty.... a world which is ugly, ugly and just getting uglier.

Wake up, everyone, wake up !... Then the wonderful emotion coming from what's beautiful in our free world is turning into a great sense of anger.

An Anger that must be turned into actions, to purge the world of this evil plague of humanity called - ISLAM.

A Parallel Universe is the only explanation I can find to account for the opinions and words that are placed in my 'metaphorical mouth' by some posters here. Either that or they just don't read my posts in the first place.

Take Coach, (pleease take Coach) he writes:

>>Muslims want us to talk about Sharia Law, research it, discuss it, massage it into our brains, and .... the ‘scouts’ of Australia start to warm up to it...<<

Now apart from the inherent paranoia; apparently not discussing Sharia Law means it will go away. But he goes on to say the "scouts of Australia start to warm up to it" really? What have I posted to suggest this absurdity? I have stated over and over again that I am leery of fundamentalism of any stripe and on this very thread have stated that there is much about Sharia Law with which I disagree.

Now, redneck states to R0bert >>But knowing Bronwyn and Scout, they will probably stuff heaven up by telling God He is a racist for not allowing Muslims to come into the Christian heaven too.<<

I don't know how well you can follow a thread, but R0bert and I are pretty much in agreement on the impact of religious fundamentalism of both Islam and Christianity. So I guess you'll have to put up with Bronwyn, yours truly AND Robert insisting on equal rights. Sad but true we believe in equal rights for all human beings. BTW - from what I know about heaven - very hierarchical what with all those angels, arch-angels and having to praise the lord all the frigging time. Don't think I quite fit in there, hell is definitely THE place to be.

And besides - I AM NOT RELIGIOUS. Sorry about the capitals, but somehow the Parallel Universe posters (P.U.P's) think I'm gonna embrace Islam.

Not bloody likely - I find Christianity stultifying let alone Islam.

I favour a fair go for everyone. I favour debate, discussion and discourse and opposed to diatribe, denunciation and disrespect.

Do you P.U.poster's understand now?