No Kish, its not controversial or leftwing, its common sense. Its really simple. If you vote for an antiwar party then you are actually protesting against the war. Simple.

An independent can be an angel or could be pushing the legalisation of cannibalising children. Thats why I asked you what the policies were of the independents you voted for and your silence on the matter doesn't look good.

Policies, kish, you should vote on policies, you had an opportunity to vote against the war and you decided not to. The liberal party is pro-war and the Greens and the Democrats are antiwar. You refuse to register an antiwar vote because you don't like the other policies of the Greens and democrats.

Arguing you shouldn't vote for antiwar parties because not enough people vote for them is an oxymoron. Arguing they oppose everything the liberals do (which isn't true) means you so badly don't want a party that opposes the liberals that you would prefer the war in Iraq. I think preventing the horrific suffering of others is a good enough reason to vote for anyone antiwar. Once the other parties get the reason why you are voting against them they'll change their policies and you'll have more choice.

If you thought by marching into Iraq the US was truly going to bring about world peace I would have more respect for you because at least you wanted peace, even though I would question the effectiveness of your means of acquiring it. But you are antiwar--just didn't think it important enough to vote on.

You will never find a party that agrees with everything you want--never. You just have to choose: What is the most important thing that needs achieving with this election? If that was stopping the war then it's obvious where you should have voted. Why were you pro Liberal? You answered it yourself. You think they're better with the economy. Money vs Peace and you go for Money. Good one Kish.

I wasn't arguing about my name, I was informing you. Sorry you cannot tell the difference.

Aziliz,

To me it seems your so hell bent on painting me to be pro-war, pro-bush and pro-liberal merely because your anti-war, anti-bush and anti-liberal and also so that you can argue for the sake of arguing. I have already explained my voting choice about 4 times and all on 4 occasions your either completly missing the point or you dont seem to understand how the electoral system works.

Voting greens and democrates is the same as voting for labour, end of story, now can we please get over this, stop trying to twist this around and wasting my time to re-itterate that in my area a symbolic vote for greens or democrates is a vote for labour.

Yes I am anti labour so what? Does that mean being anti-labour is pro-liberal? So you must be pro-labour according to that logic becaues your anti liberal? I didnt vote for liberal for the 4th time nor did I vote for labour. So how am I pro liberal or pro labour?

I didn't vote for liberal because I DON'T agree with there FOREIGN POLICY ON IRAQ. I didn't vote for labour because they dont seem to have any policies except opposing liberal which is childish at best, im not going to vote kid's in to run my country maybe you might.

We seem to be in theory on the same side here, i.e. ANTI bush yet you are tryign ever so hard to shift me on the opposing side so that you can argue for the sake of it.

I voted for independants in the senate so they have the balance of power and if you have been following politics for the past 10 years then you will notice that democrates and greens blindly oppose liberal when they had the balance in the upper house. I do not know nor care about every policy that independants have, all i know is what I observe in question time from the various independant candidates, something which you obviously do NOT watch time to time like myself...

You're ignoring what I say.

I've explained the system to you but you just ignore me and go on chanting what you think as though if you say it often enough you will be right--instead of explaining it, instead of refuting my statements and much less answering my queries. You simply go on chanting 'a vote for Greens and Democrats is a vote for Labour' like it is a religious doctrine that does not need to be rational or explain anything.

I asked you what the policies of the independents you voted for were (count it--now this is the third time). You're not being rational not answering kish. If you don't know the policies of the people you vote for then you're crazy.

You can use the web to find out what their policies are and how they voted on legislation, ie their record too.

The senate isn't proportional voting and so has nothing to do with voting Labour or Liberal--unless you mean Greeens and Democrats will vote with Labour on other issues, but then you totally agree with me--other issues are more important to you and the Iraqis can go to hell as far as you're concerned.

In the house of reps if you vote Green or Democrats then you can give your second preference to whomever you chose. But even so a vote for liberal is a vote for the war. If you don't put pro war parties and individuals (yes independants can be pro war) last then you vote for war.

You're upset because you know you care more about your pocket than the people of Iraq. And your constant chanting you don't want a party that votes the opposite to liberal proves that policies other than the war are more important to you--QED

Go on chanting if you want to but you haven't come up with any answers to what I have said. You are just agreeing with me.

Aziliz,

I have already stated in my last post quite clearly that I do not know nor care about all the policies of the independants that I voted for in the upper house. I would rather the balance of power going to a non-bias party. You obviosuly haven't been observing politics for long nor do you watch politicians in question time if you believe greens and democrates are not pro labour. I have read the greens and democrates polices on this matter and as they stand now they have no ambitions of bringing out troops home from Iraq.

I have already told you about 5 times that regardless of my preferences in the lower house, my vote will EVENTUALLY end up with labour if i put nationals and liberals at the bottom so to me this is POINTLESS.

As for singing the same tune, likewise, ive yet to see you respond with anything new or half intellegent, instead your repeating the same pro green, anti war rubbish....yawn

Now we can both arrogantly think we are right and the other is wrong, at the end of the day it makes little difference. I'm not changing my voting pattern regardless of how flawed you think my reasoning is. Now if your simple minded attitude towards people in this country is that if they DONT vote for greens or democrates then they CARE more about there back pockets than peopel suffering then I really pitty you.

If you really are the pinnacle of compasion as you so suggest, why dont you become a volunteer and go to Iraq and make a real difference. Why don't you sponsor a child in a 3rd world country as i currently do. You think a vote for labour (oh sorry greens) is going to make any real difference, you need to wake up and live in the real world. In an egalitarian society maybe what your suggesting may work along with other lefty socialist models etc, but we dont live in such a society. Ideally If I vote for greens (LOWERHOUSE) it should stay with them...IT DOESNT

You obviously haven't read the Greens policies nor read their press releases either. They are rampantly antiwar and only as recently as 13th May 2006 Bob Brown made a press release stating the troops should be brought home (yet again). They've been completely consistent and you're nuts the way you just make things up to suit you with no factual basis for what you say.

Not knowing **every** policy of the independents you vote for (your statement) is different to not knowing **any** policies they stand for-so I had a right to ask what their policies were. Some independents stand because they want to legalise heroin and others because they want to reintroduce christian values into schools. They could stand for anything. You have not even mentioned one of their policies. If you vote for them solely because they're independent as though someone who cannot fit in with a group of people is somehow a superior human being is crazy. Only their policies and how they effect their voting on legislation is all that counts.

Saying a vote in the lower house is a vote for labour doesn't explain your upper house choices. It also totally ignores the fact the liberal government is consistently pro war.

Just saying leftist, socialist as an insult doesn't detract from the fact you will not vote for people who are antiwar and that you will give your preferences to a rampantly pro war party.

A lot of Germans voted for Hitler because he (or his government) was able to stablise Germany's economy. Now people wonder why they voted for them. Watching the people in the US, Australia and England today it is easy to see why. They are unmoved by Abu Graib, by Guantanamo, by the preemptive strikes, the mass graves, the dead, the tortured, the mutilated, the bereft. They just say there is no way they will vote for some lefty softy just to stop a war. Just like you do.

Your last paragraph is just stupid, presumptive and typical. You are, by your voting preferences, pro war. That is a fact. Deal.

Aziliz,

Once again you have tried to twist and turn what I have said to fuel your argument. You come across very much as some undergrad arts / communications student who thinks they know everything because of debates in there class about social issues, etc. I had many friends in commuinications and my twin brother is a journalist. It's funny to watch how these students change their opinion's when they get out in the real world and gain some life experience (work experience in the case of journo's). The ever classic wayu to win an arguemnt for people like your self is to state "your not answering my question", "your argument is flawed", etc, etc as if to suggest that making such comments will discredit my point of view.

You people like talk alot, yet seem to have very little in the way of action, you also lack life experience. How many times have you seen the greens and decmocates debate there "points" in parliment? How many times have you seen the election analysis and how votes are counted as it seems you have only just accepeted that my lower house vote would go to labour after 5 posts of me stating this.

You keep trying to paint the picture that my vote WAS FOR LIBERAL. I keep telling you that IN BOTH HOUSES I DID NOT VOTE FOR LIBERAL OR NATIOANLS. Yet purely for the sake of arguing you keep trying to twist and turn what I say to give any "on-lookers" the impression that I am pro liberal and pro war. I have already for the 20th time explained my upper house vote. It has to do WITH NOT ALLOWING LABOUR OR LIBERAL POWER IN THE SENATE. If you had the experience to OBSERVE politics over the past 10 years or so you would know that greens and democrates have always been very PRO LABOUR / ANTI LIBERAL when they have had power in the senate. So much so that its become incredibly childish and anti productive as NO legislation gets through....