The sign of things to come perhaps? The result of so much tolerance and respect for an alien culture, when all that is returned is the snarling of vicious intolerant sectarian bigots. .

So now the Dutch have finally drawn the line in the sand so to speak, they are demanding that immigrants learn to speak Dutch, as have the other so called very desirable countries to immigrate into.

Perhaps it is for the better that we also know the Moslem radicals and those who refuse to assimilate into an Australian culture, however imperfect, which has withstood many tests of wills - but has never descended into a civil war, has never had the ignominy of being racked by sectarian inspired violence, like Ireland, as well as Lebanon and Iraq
What now needs to be done is to implement some natural changes, immigrants need to speak the recognized language of the land, which in this case just happens to be English. Overt religious symbols need to be completely and totally banned and adopt the dress of the country, as is now being promulgated in many of the countries of Europe - I find nothing wrong with that. If, for some strange reason you wish to follow your chosen faith, I have no real objection, but if it is one of violence, then it is against humanity.

Whilst I do not agree with everything many of the posters have said here - it is obvious that there are two very opposing factions here, those who are Australians first and happy to be Australians - and those who know no better than to abuse their hosts, including those whose command of the Australian English language is not only sadly lacking, but in many instances deliberately twisted and misconstrued - right Diana?

Your snide comments do you no justice and while the income for writing for the Australian would come in handy, I speak for myself, from my own observation and my own experience - but you are so bitter in yourself that you just cannot admit to something beyond your understanding.

GZTan-Facts and information are not mutually exclusive. Granted that facts could be called 'correct' information. Of course the information you base your opinons on should be factual.

You don't work with 'logic' alone as you claimed in your previous post but with your little talk about logic plus fact are only repeating exactly what I said substituting the word 'fact' for 'information'. In other words you completely agree with me. Now that is a change.

As I meant 'factual information' (seeming as you are off splitting hairs and setting up straw men) then obviously if you do not have the facts then you cannot come to a correct analysis of the situation. So once again you agree with me.

Your equation that you say describes me:

Selective Information + 'frauded logic' = Distorted view

is precisely what I was saying was your problem. The proof lies in our posts. You say anything you feel like without reference to any facts mostly just insults and abuse-while I present facts for people to read and make their own minds up. Proof that you do not like the way you argue and prefer the way I do.

Now that you admit you need facts, it would be a good idea if you actually put some 'study' in to find those facts and the presented them instead of your abuse and insults to the forum. Follow your own advice.

Aziliz,

"... information you base your opinons on should be factual."

You ought not to think your information is factual if your reasoning is frauded. It is a matter of a 'belief' that it is factual. But you do not believe your reasoning is frauded, do you?

You should not even substitute the word 'fact' for 'information' because 'fact' implies something that has been validated through logical reasoning. It makes no sense to re-validate a fact.

"... if you do not have the facts then you cannot come to a correct analysis..."

Let me paraphrase: If your logic is frauded or there is no fact, or both, then you may not arrive at the truth.

"...I present facts for people to read and make their own minds up..."

You didn't provide facts per se, just selective information and your biased analysis (fraud logic). You were telling people they are wrong based on your distorted view of the world. Just like me telling you you're wrong, based on selected statement. But at least my logical reasoning is sound. The fact that I've been abusive is wrong, I accept that.

Although I don't endorse Kekenidika's bigotry there are more sides to the immigration debate than "we don't want their filthy culture"vs."let's save them all"

Firstly, some immigrants come not knowing our culture or laws then are unhappy when they find out. Some pack and return. Others stay and stay unhappy. It can be a huge investment in time,emotion and money to migrate especially if you're a family. To then decide you made a mistake is traumatic. A process where migrants are informed and compassionately assessed with a mutual input as to whether Australia is appropriate for them could save them wasted time and resources. If they come informed their settlement also would be easier.

Another angle-the damage immigration does to the countries the migrants leave. This isn't just us being kind to migrants. They're usually chosen because of their education and work experience-not because they're refugees. People talk about migrants being 'parasites' but if we steal the 'best' from other countries then we're the parasites. It is called 'brain drain' and it's a real problem. It's selfish for our government to bring in professionals that are needed in their own country instead of training our own,to deprive countries of their most productive that they’ve invested in raising/educating.

Refugees from wartorn/repressive regimes would benefit more if the problems they have in their country of origin are solved.

Saying"leave them in their country and we won't bother them and they won't bother us" ignores the Global Economy. Our businesses are active in their countries and go overseas to escape tax, for cheap labour, for freedom from health and safety standards,etc. Our mining and oil companies have at times partnered with brutal regimes that remove people from their land to let the company in with no compensation, murdering them if they complain often leaving them in marginal land with polluted waterways from the mining. We need more control of what our companies are doing overseas. Farming tariff protection-another issue.

GZTan-Glad you agree on the abuse. Your insistence you use facts that you correctly interpret and I don’t –we’ll work on that ;)

Aziliz

Excellent points re:

Brain Drain on countries left behind.

Lack of knowledge about new countries.

Global Economy.

For a start, I know how hard it can be living in a new country. Even if its culture is very similar to my own like the USA. I lived there for roughly a two year period after becoming romantically involved with an American. His father believed the only reason I was involved with his son was to get a green card. Many other Americans saw me in that light as well, even though Australia is as free and democratic as theirs. There was a prevailing view that all the rest of the world wanted to live in America.

There are similar views here; that everyone wants to live in Australia - this couldn't be further from the truth. We all love the countries of our birth - I will always love Australia regardless of type of government in power. It would break my heart to have to leave due to war or other tragedies. I know this because I did consider living in America.

The effect of migrants leaving their countries behind does have a negative effect on the future of their former countries. This is something very few posters to this forum gives consideration to.

As for the "close our borders and stick our heads in the sand brigade" - reality time we are in a global economy whether we like it or not. Therefore, the better off other countries become, the better off we are. By helping others we are simply helping ourselves.

I will always remember how homesick I became, particularly around times like Christmas and other celebrations where I was accustomed to the inimitable Australian way of celebration. This is why I know how much courage it takes to leave your people and your country behind and it takes a lot of courage. To then arrive in a country where you are regarded with at least suspicion and at worst hostility must be very hard to endure.

To all immigrants - you are braver than I.

Aziliz and Scout: great couple of posts! I wish this side of the issue was discussed more than just rhetoric like we see every day.