No surprises there. The Murdoch press has been consistently backing Howard for years. Hardly a hint of criticism, and rarely following through with the really hard questions. Whilst the Liberals rave on about the supposed bias of the ABC, almost all of the commercial newspapers, TV and radio are solidly right wing. Australia has the most one-eyed media in the western world. Not a single Murdoch paper in the world opposed the invasion of Iraq. Editorial independence? What a joke.

Packer's state funeral: another fine example of media independence from government.

The only question is: which is the tail, and which is the dog?

Irfan,

Good article, the Australian articles are rarely objective or constructive. But thats journalism for some.

If you are concerned by attitudes and behaviour towards women, look into structural problems of poverty, male domination, patriachy and misogyny. Please, I beg of you, do not make out like these very same issues do not exist as problems in Western communities. Woman abuse is not limited to minority ethic communities in this country. Mr Howard should be concerned with violence against women in general, rather than attempting to pigeon hole Muslims as the uncivilised other; people who are perhaps more accepting of woman abuse than their dominant mainstream White Australian counterparts.

Well again we have Irfan Yusef insinuating Australian as either bigoted or at best just ignorant, then goes on to show how the Australian has a “biased” attitude towards Moslems, because of their own attitudes towards our society because of the Moslem failure to integrate into our society.

What you fail to appreciate is that we do not have to integrate into your backward society – quite the opposite as you have migrated here and you have to integrate into OUR society – understand the difference there – or do I, lime many other continually bash our heads against a brick wall?

I am aware that we have had other Moslem migrants here and of course they have been peaceful, however we now have the Lebanese Moslems who cannot even live peacefully in their own community importing their own brand of mongrel attitude – one that bites the hand that feeds it.

The article referred to by Megalogenis is really a wake up call – of course many Turks, Afghans and some Bosnians have migrated and integrated into Australian society - BUT Moslems are not a race – they are dangerous monotheists and to deny that only shows your own ignorance and I for one do not want a Moslem culture dominating in Australia after all from your own Koran, Mohammed was a murderer, war monger, adulterer and paedophile – what a hero to follow?

Islam is a missionary dogma like any other – but the difference is you can tell a Mormon and a Jehovah to rack off – and they do not take out their swords and kill you. Moslem missionaries in Australia – right – I have heard their message loud and clear, filled with violence and hatred and not much peace about them – BUT how many other religions are there allowed in Saudi Arabia?

You want respect – fine, I will respect you with the same respect you show me, I will respect your women with the same respect my women are shown. However remember that respect has to be earned, not given on demand.

It appears the larger Australian community is always accused of being ignorant of Muslims and Islamic culture in general. Yet I see nothing in the persistent writings of the author that attempts to set the record straight- as usual the buck is passed (to Howard and the media) and the hard questions dodged. Surely Australian muslims are not blind to the fact that a small proportion of their community has exploited their religion to justify violence, degredation of women and other immoral behaviour?

Has cultural relativism become so muddy that Christians and muslims cannot find common ground on the treatment of women and street violence? Instead of branding those gang rapists 'Pakistani and Lebanese' and ignoring their obvious muslim heritage, why not offer an unequivocal condemnation? I read recently that a 'moderate' Islamic leader in Australia stated that "those with extremist views should not be open about them or leave Australia." Shouldn't those with extremist views not have them at all!?

Greek, Italian and Asian Australians can often be drawn into a conversation on their views of segments of the muslim community. This shows this is not a racially motivated nor influenced debate. It is about the pragmatics of the situation. The longer the situation is denied and largely ignored the stronger the chances are that the debate will become about race and culture and less about the criminal actions of a small group of disenfranchised young people.

Irfan attacks 'The Australian', John Howard, Politicians, Cultural Australia, well every one and their dog really except himself...

Irfan, the reason for our collective views on islam are your your very religio-political practices as found in your holy books.

Instead of looking at the problem in the mirror you are acting like a halal chook that has just been decapitated!

You forget one thing - we can read and critically analyse your "holy" texts and read YOU between the lines also.

Islam will never adapt anywhere - it is doomed for implosion for two reasons:

1. Self-critique is impossible - Islam is stuck with an immutable Qur’an riddled with atrocious misconceptions and false teachings which being ” the direct word from allah” the texts can never be challenged therefore will never lead to a ‘reformation’

2. Arrogant Blindness - The cultural thrust of islam is xenophobia: antisocial, antidemocratic, anti-women, anti-Christian, anti-Jews, anti-Buddhist, etc… attracting more and more criticism and worldwide intolerance to which the muslim clerics are bluntly refuting

"I will respect your women with the same respect my women are shown"

What are you, an nitwit? There's no such thing as 'your' women or 'my' women. There are only women. No one has ownership of women; your attitude comes across with the same patriachal male centred possesive view of women that you chastise Muslims for.

"owever we now have the Lebanese Moslems who cannot even live peacefully in their own community importing their own brand of mongrel attitude"

Your rights as a citizen of this country should not be determined by your ethnic ancestory, heritage or religious beliefs. Nor should a distinction be made between a person who 'comes here' and is bad and someone who's 'already here' and bad. Once you are an Australian citizen you have the right to be bad as much as any other Austarlian has the right to be bad.

I'm with you strayan, what's this absurd 'my women, your women' claptrap. Kekenidika, you have revealed yourself as anachronistic and biased as the religion you are attempting to vilify.

Irfan - good on you for pointing out the bias inherent in the Australian and the regressive comments by our PM. So much for attempting to bridge the gap of communication by our political and media leaders.

I have to make one point and that is Islam has a lot of growing up to do before it can be considered a positive force in the 21st century, but then show me a religion that doesn't live in the past. Christianity is only slightly ahead in that it doesn't stone people to death - but it does want to control people - from conception to death. Actually they even try to control you after death - Coach is always eager to point out that those who do not believe exactly as he does will burn in hell. Coach is so charming.

Makes me laugh when christians start vilifiying Islam - as I have stated before 'pots and kettles'.

Any way, good luck Irfan - you're gonna need it.

So No evidence that Afghans, Bosnians and Somalis live in ghettos? I can only say that your research is minimalist to say the very least – Where have you taken your surveys, or to be more precise, not taken them? Have you taken a look at the problems with Somalis in Dandenong, or other places? The rapes by Somalis do not really happen there either do they?
So the Cronulla riots involved second and third generation Lebanese and Pakistanis – shows just how well their parents have brought them up and the respect instilled during their formative years – ZILCH! But then again, that is the Moslem mindset isn’t it? It also shows how the Bosnians and Afghans have shown gratitude for the peace found in Australia, as against the Lebanese and Pakistanis, who have proven time and time again that they will not integrate into Australian society.
But I really do like this throwaway line, “the picture painted looks little more than incoherent pieces of paint hurled onto the canvas” One can only paint what one sees really, and if the Lebanese and Pakistani Moslems present themselves as above the law of the land, as a group that will absolutely refuse to integrate and show continual hostility to our society, one can only expect to view a Picasso – not a Rembrandt!
AND yes, strayan, your understanding of English is flawed, I do respect our women collectively, unlike the Pakistanis who multiple rape, mutilate and denigrate – then stone them as prostitutes. Of course the Sharia courts in Nigeria have really set a nice fine example also – would you have them here also?
We DO have the right to decide who come here, as we do have enough “BAD” people here now, without importing any more! If you commit crime you should be jailed – unfortunately Moslems are now saying that it is against their religion to be jailed for crimes against other religions – and apologize yeah right – in a pigs fundamental orifice they will. Stop dragging your knuckles along your cave floor and rejoin humanity

It’s interesting that Irfan doesn’t: “. intend to focus on what Mr Howard said, but rather on the editorial baggage which The Australian has tried to attach to Mr Howard’s comments”, when he clearly says that Howard’s remarks referred to a minority of Muslims, as they indeed did.

I also reacted to The Australian headline, “Howard hits out at Jihad Muslims”, saying to myself, ‘He bloody did not; he was talking about SOME Muslims’.

I read and noted the blowing out of the PM’s statement by The Australian, but I knew what the PM actually said, and I wasn’t the slightest concerned by what the paper, wrongly, made of that statement. The media is always making a big deal out of things, without actually telling lies, because they want to attract attention. That’s their sales pitch.

Irfan knows this. But, instead of giving everyone else credit for the intelligence to be able to compare what the media says with what we know John Howard said, he goes into victim mode and lambasts one arm of the media when there is no call for him to do that. All he does is draw attention to the touchiness of SOME Muslims.

The free media often talks a load of rubbish about most of us if they think it will be good for them. Irfan and other touchy Muslims need to lighten up a bit

hm, the typical comment pattern here, with all the attack on Islam.

My suggestion is for everyone to watch "Saved" on dvd.

While some people will dismiss it as teenage movie, the underlying message is very important for all ignorant people out there.

The bible or koran or any other religious book is just that,a bloody book, written by human, with his/ her intepretation of God's message.

It depends on how do you, other intelligent individual, to filter and intepret the message inside that counts.

Repeating my argument last time, it is the low education and social status that leads to hopelessness, and thus lead to suicidal attitude, where they have nothing to lose.

It is unfortunate that the Lebanese muslim is mostly disadvantaged in this country, which leads to their rather despicable behaviour.

I would rather discuss how to leverage them out of poverty, but apparently that issue is put in the too hard basket for some people ( and obviously, the government ).
Well, it is easier for them to divert your attention to something more emotionally involved ( and politically rewarding ), like religion.

As a closing sentence, i would like to quote from the scene in Saved

" THIS is NOT a weapon, you idiot" ( holding the holy book )

Ifran really shows his colours when he defends everything that Muslims say,do and demand. If he is a lawyer then he needs to look at truth and what is being said .
Islam and Muslim's prophet mohammed was all that they (Kekendika) said above and more.
Read "The Prophet", by Alberto Rivera ,ex - Jesuit Priest tells it all.
Mohammed did not like dark skinned people,he was white and as for women they were inferior humans .

You can read:"The Prophet", by Alberto ,on line page by page.

What nation is NOT having problems with Muslims Ifran?
Why aren't Aussies flocking to middle eastern lands to live ,and why are Muslims flocking to Australia ?

Is it for freedom,liberty ,health and wealth and love of our beuatiful once peaceful nation?
is there some other agenda ?

Read also Hal Lindsey's book Planet Earth-2000 AD ,ISBN 0-9641058-0-2 also War on Terror, by Grant R.Jeffrey ISBN 0-921714-66-1.
All revelant to today's Muslim uprising again.

Kekenidika says "you have migrated here and you have to integrate into OUR society".

Well number 1, Mr. K: where did you come from, and did you or your forebears drop all their customs and beliefs when they came to Australia?

Number 2, Mr. K: what a wonderful Australia we would have if we all integrated into YOUR way of life. I suspect we'd all be eating wonderful cuisine like meat pies, listening to wonderful music like, like, like... maybe John Farnham.

Playing such a range of sports like Aussie rules (maybe not, that's probably an Aboriginal sport), certainly not soccer or cricket, they belong to overseas cultures. We couldn't be Christian, because that's supposed to follow the beliefs of some Middle Eastern communist.

Come to think of it, that's the way we are heading under Howard - such a relaxed and comfortable monocultural society full of narrow minded intolerants who've probably never travelled further than the Gold Coast.

Don't give me any of that foreign muck - where's me meat pie, cheese and onion crisps and glass of Fosters?

To tell you just exactly just how I see and read and listen,to this carry on,what else can be expected,you take as for an example,of two in particular in the media oulets,the Herald Sun in Melbourne,is without doubt a rightwing paper,and to add to it they have their Andrew Bolt,who for years have spread his racist opinion of certain races and religions,he has by that helped to keep the flame of racism very much alive,he is one of the main causes,he is a backer of the Prime Minister John Howard,who also is a professed racist and has never changed,then there is the Daily Telegraph in Sydney,aepeat of the above,and they have their Piers Akerman,so what else does anyone expect others to say about Australia and its Racists,when you have AMBASSADORS like,John Howard,Andrew Bolt,Piers Akerman,and the others in Australia that hold opinions like thses,you will find them all over,in pubs,bars,at the WAGA,the MCG,SCG,GABA,so there you have it,we look for trouble,but cannot face it when,we get back a DOSE of our own medicine,so there you have it as I see the situation in Australia,as long as you have your John Howard,your Andrew Bolt your Piers Akerman,and all the other closet racists,this will be the view and opinions of the rest of the world.

Kekenidika how do you manage to walk about without any feet? I've heard about foot-in-mouth disease - I never expected such a text book case. I bet they study you at University and you just got let out.

With statements like:

"I do respect our women collectively" - OUR women? Not respected individually?

followed by:

"Stop dragging your knuckles along your cave floor and rejoin humanity" - well I guess it takes one to know one.

Who else on OLO owns women - come on, don't be shy, 'fess up fellows how many women do y'all have? Inquiring minds want to know.

Irfan with true blue Aussies like these; fundy Islam is starting to look good - well not really, but just who did let Kekenidika out of his holding cell?

Oh well that's my 2 P.P.T's used up.

To be fair to The Oz, whilst it did print Mark Steyn's anti-Semitic article, it also published an editorial deploring Danna Vale's comments on Australia becoming a Muslim country.

Tell me one country that retains its peaceful status after taking in Muslim immigrants.
As soon as the Muslims are settled in they want their own hours at public swimming pools, shopping centres, mosques , food and their loud complaining everytime they fail to get their demands met are unmissable.
Then ,as in UK, the next step will be to have their own no go areas with Sha'ia law, polygamy and then all the rest of the Islamic delights will come about in due course.
They follow a type of apartheid. Their host's laws, traditions and customs are never good enough for these people, they leave their own defective countries to spread their own defective rules through a world that does not want them. There is no victim like a Muslim.
How can they be so ignorantly blind?

Irfan,

Your heart is in the right place.

Just for one day, stop being at the coalface of the Muslim charge and sit back as a subjective Australian and analyse.

Yes, there are the majority of Muslims who are normal, quiet people, just like christians.

Then there are the Skinheads etc the minority who causes problems. Just like Muslims.

The difference is, Skinheads dont crash planes into buildings and bomb train stations, they are not suicide bombers a skinhead is a skin head when you look at them, not a sleeper trying to fly under the radar until the day arrives. that is why there is fear. that is why Howard is right in what he is saying, you have Afgani refugees coming from fighting and living in fundamentalism, who must have a certain welath base (or be funded) to escape the country in the first place, Howard is right in his analysis.

It is common sense, not anti muslim. If it were skinhead christians, Howard would highlight the same.

It is not always a conspiracy against you. Life is 10% what happens, 90% how you deal with it. Thank your lucky stars you are not in a truly racist country.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, dont expect your PM to not call a Spade a Spade.

It is the truth Irfan, you are good bloke and it is unfortunate that the only people who can stop the anti muslim facets of society is the Muslims themeselves, you know who and where to find these frightening fundamentalists, yet they are ignored or protected by you.

This fear people have you can stop. If as Australians AND muslims you weed them out and save lives, you will be very highly regarded and your people can get the recognition they deserve as a peaceful people who can integrate with society.

Hey Realist,

One name: Timothy McVeigh.

(Yeah, I know, not technically a "skin head". But he was the the US equivalent.)

Not a criticism or rebuttal of your post, just info.
odsoc

Good comment Realist.

I really agree with what Irfan said. People are people, and you are going to get the good, bad and ugly in every group that exists.

It seems like we have this expectation that everyone who immigrates is going to be very grateful and law-abiding. However this is not reality. There are always going to be people who come over and disrespect our culture, break the law, offend us etc.

I mean I remember not that long ago, everyone was making a big deal about the asian immigration. Being a Perth boy, everyone was talking about how they've taken over Northbridge with their gangs. This had an element of truth to it, but the problem was more a case of the poor response of the police at the time which has been rectified. Therefore its humourous to now read “Asian immigrants of the last part of the 20th century are now doing likewise. None of these peoples harboured any hope or desire to imprint their culture over that which existed here.”

The point is there is no Islam conspiracy being guided by every muslim immigrating about taking over Australia. There's just a few bad eggs. Let's face it, if half a million of us Aussies immigrated somewhere, I'm sure there would be some trouble-makers among us who would annoy the host nation as well.

As Scout is often eager to point out (lol), there are even bad eggs within the Christian church as well (shock horror!). All we need now is Yabby here digging up some fringe catholic terrorist site ;).

However in taking in such large immigration numbers, I believe the government needs to provide better guidance for these families. There also needs to be better co-operation with community leaders of these groups, which I'm glad John Howard's government is now doing. Finally we need to be realistic in the numbers we take in. Although I realise that we need our population to increase, we mustn't take in numbers that we aren't yet equipped to handle, otherwise it just ends up causing larger problems long term.

As per normal, whenever someone attack the Muslim culture, instead of looking inwards and fixing the problem, the Muslim community hits outward and attack the culture they are in

I do not see any muslim leader condemning their pupils, when they gang rape girls, because they were "Aussie" in appearance

The catholic church had came out and condemn the Cronulla riot.I do not see any muslim leader come out and say the same thing about what the ethnic gang did to cars in Brighton or Marouba.

I do not see followers of any other religion apart from followers of Islam, celebrating the death of thousands of people, when the twin towers comes down.

I do not see any other religions trying to rewrite history and say the hollocaust did not exist.

I think Islam has a major problem, instead of blaming the rest of society for their problems, they have to look inward and solve these problem, and the problems are many and they are significant.

I have been a reader on these forums for some weeks now and have been amused by the battle between the socalled “Islamofacsists” and the “arm chair Nazis”. It seems to either “my imaginary friend is better than yours” or “I’ve just googled your religion and have managed to dig up some disgusting facts”. To those who want to dig up every bit of nasty detail about the life of Mohammed lets face the facts, he was a product of his time – if there indeed was any conquering, slavery, rape, underage marriage – please name me one other culture that was not behaving in the same way 1400 years ago.

The actions of Mohammed are irrelevant, what is relevant is the tenants of the faith that resulted. To the Muslims on the site, I would like some clarity on a few tenants of your faith:
- sharia law – this is barbaric and I never want to live under its conditions – is this what Islam teaches?
- Dhimmitude – Christians get to live like second class citizens - does not sound like a barrel of laughs. Is this what Islam teaches?
- The House of Allah and House of War thing. Is this it a tenant of the faith that Islam aims to rule the world and that any area not under Muslim rule is the House of War?
- The taquifa thing (forgive the spelling) whereby a Muslim can lie to non-muslims about his intentions in the goal of ruling them in the end – is this what Islam teaches?

My interpretation is that Islam is prescriptive about pretty much everything and Christianity is more values based. If any of these tenants are a truly part of the teachings of Islam (a prescriptive religion) will they not always be able to be manipulated by extremists to cause problems?

I take a lot of pride in western society, and I truly believe that we've got it more "right" than the theocratic cultures which yield Islamic extremists.

That said, we've got to get over the idea that western civilisation is a product of who we are and not what we do.

The vast majority of Australians have no idea what underpins our democracy. They think we're naturally egalitarian and tolerant. That's why governments can undermine the public service, the courts, and parliament with hardly a peep from the electorate.

The people who mouth recycled dogma about democracy and free speech are every bit as small-minded and hateful as the terrorists. It's merely an accident of birth that they're shouting "deport the lot of 'em" and not "jihad against the Satanic west!".

The ugly fact is that people like a nemesis. All this tolerance leaves us with a hankering for someone we can hit with our aggression and judgementalism. I have more in common with a progressive muslim like Irshad Manji than I do with some suburban cretin who roams the beaches, forcing people to kiss the flag draped over his shoulders. Yet we're expected to believe that one is a terrorist waiting to happen, while the other is a compassionate patriot.

Maybe the majority of muslims are moderate and pro-assimilation, maybe not. We'll never know because the ignorant majorities on both sides get better value from anger and condemnation than they do from co-operation.

Howard walks the border on this issue, carefully allowing himself to appeal to conservatives, older australians, rural australians and xenophobes - while not venturing into the Hanson area, something that would generate strong criticism from the press (maybe).

The one positive aspect is that we are probably better off having a calculating moderate xenophobe in Howard (who takes these voters with him, and who somewhat represents the concerns of many others) than the existence of true splinter groups such as One Nation.

And as for the press... The Australian ultimately is a business - and it will do what sells, just like the current affairs shows.

White Wombat,

You summarised it: Journalism is a business.

Jimmyj,

Will have a go at your questions based on common Muslims belief.

- Sharia law: have two folds social and criminal justice (both defined in the Quran). The criminal justice part is still implemented in two countries (Saudi and Sudan) most other Muslim countries used the contextual meaning of the law (ie preventive sentencing) and replaced it with sentences like life imprisonment or death sentence (for things like rape or drug trafficing). The social justice laws (ie inheritance, family, divorce and child custody laws) are implemented in most Muslim countries.

- Dhimitude: non Islamic term but came in the third century of Islamic history. One of the corners of Islamic faith is Zakat (poors due) specified as 2.5% of all assets a Muslim owns (This is different than charity). Zakat laws didn’t apply to the people of the book “ie Christians and Jews” but was replaced by an army exemption tax called “Jizyah”. The term dhimmi was invented in the early years of the Islamic empire to differentiate financial obligations. The term in modern days is mainly in Wahabbi teachings and is alien to most Muslims.

- House of Allah & House of war: mythology. Get a credible meaning translation of the Quran by Pickthall you will not find a single reference to war except in self or property defence and always followed by terms like “shall not transgress”, “until they persecute you no more”. 14 centuries ago war was the norm and the only peace was on a bi-lateral peace treaty. The meaning should be viewed in today’s context. Honouring peace and peace treaties is clearly mentioned in the Quran.

- Taquiyya: mythology although have some roots in early Muslim scholars writings in the 3rd century of Islam (900-1,100AD). Most if not all modern day scholars discredited those teachings as incorrect as it conflicts directly with Islamic teachings: lying and false witnessing is the 3rd and 5th greatest sins in Islamic faith. Most muslims will not know the term dhimitude or Taquiyya.

Peace,

I think the “ignorance” is all Irfans.

The Australian has opened its editorial to different contributors.

Some of those contributors possibly have views which oppose the ones which Irfan has “cherry picked” out to contest here.

Now Irfan is entitled to have a small-minded view on what the Editor of the Australian should say, how he should think, maybe what he should wear, when he should take his meals and what he should eat. We can all do that.

What Irfan cannot do is impose his view. I know it would not take up a lot of space. I am sure it is quite neat and well trimmed, the thing to fit in almost anywhere with the most banal of environments but other people get to hold views too and some of them merit being selected for presentation in the Australian. Get used to this Irfan, being in Australia you have to understand that everyone is an individual and the editor of the Australian is one too. He is employed in a competitive position (he could get sacked).
He is expected to deliver a readable newspaper. That what he selects to print is contrary to your view is simply solved, do not bother to buy it to read, go to the Age or some other limp-wristed, apologist excuse designed to cater for the chardonnay set.

Whitewombat “calculating moderate xenophobe”, apart from being an oxymoron, it is the sort of thing I would expect someone to say when they are hell bent of criticising a politician but just cannot find fault with him.

In your own way it is quite a compliment to John Howard, it means he is in touch with the electorate and if you are a politician of any sort, you really should remember -

It is the electorate who put you there and the electorate who will remove you.

Doubtless Keating, Beazley and Latham would have benefited from being more the “calculating moderate xenophobe” but their view of the "electorate" was always obscured by the hoardes of the labor factions

Jimmyj,

Welcome to OLO.

Islam's only goal is the formation of the Global Islamic State under Sharia Law (official law of their god Allah). Make no mistake about that.

What you observe today in places like Australia and Europe - where muslims are a minority is the very mild preamble of things to come.

To understand a true full blown islamic state, look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lybia, North Nigeria, etc...The Qur'an is the primary manual.

Al-Taqiya, is a very clever Muslim concept, it was devised to achieve rapid success against the enemy: Jews, Christians,.. all Kafirs non-believers in Islam.

It is a legitimate form of Jihad - The muslim Jihadis infiltrate 'Dar el-Harb' or war zone (any non-islamic territory), cities and forums (like OLO) to plant the seeds of discord and sedition by lying and even denouncing the tenants of Islam.

Politically it means simulate whatever status of deception among the enemy in order to win the religious war...

The objective is to undermine the enemy's resistance and level of mobilization or to cause a split among the enemy's camp.

It was used very successfully in the early Islamic conquest and invasion of the Arabian peninsula, upper Africa, and Central Asia.

In most instances, the Jihaddis convince their targeted audiences that Jihad is not aimed at them;islam is on their side, and truly a noble and peaceful religion.

Lies and deceipt approved by Allah

Oh! Irfan: Don't you look at the world news, don't you - yes YOU - see what is happening where islamics have settled in whatever Western or any other nation. Don't you see the violence and thuggery or are you totally blind. Don't you see just how different pagan islam is to even a decent nominally Christian nation. Don't you read the hate sermons by your islamic preachers. Don't you read your islamic hate book - the koran. Don't you see or hear of things like a 17 year old GIRL that was hanged in that wonderful iran, but before this girl was executed she was raped. Why I hear you ask - because according to the hate filled misogynist islam religion being raped stops this girl from attaining paradise. Don't you see these people as stinking bloodthirsty animal psychopaths? Don't you understand why we look askance at such an unthinking brutal, lying cult of a religion. Don't you grasp why we do not want such a murderous religion here. irfan there is nothing about or in islam that is even part way good.numbat

Fellow_Human

Thank you for your prompt and detailed response, your lack of defensiveness and directness speak volumes. These are questions that are being discussed more and more often in my circle of friends and colleagues and it is good to get a response "from the horses mouth".

A few more questions on Sharia law:
- I noticed that 40% of Muslims in the UK would like to live under sharia law, would you guess it to be the same here?
- Would you prefer to live under sharia law?
- If a Muslim does not want to live under sharia law - is that a sin?

I vote ALP every time, and unless the policys they take into the next elect are vastly different from those printed in the Australian, and shared by most Australians I will be voteing for them again.
The fact is I agree with most Australians on most issues, well done the Australian.

its the usual IslamoFacists at it again...

to the liberalists - can you tell me the the heritage of the men who stabbed five young Australians, one of them a girl, on Sydney's Bondi beach, as reported by:

-The Dialy Telegraph
-The Herald

AND

-The Australian

- and as stated by The NSW Police

....................................................

MIDDLE EASTERN!!

Have a look at the link - in Europe school art classes are no longer allowed to draw representations of human figures to APPEASE the Muslims - A CLEAR MUSLIM-HOLD ON EUROPE!! thousands of years of children drawing self-portraits now OUTLAWED by a FRIGHTENED SCHOOL!! 9and not to mention the "self-cencorship" that gopes on after the murder of the dutch film maker - the same "self-censorship" that the Danish newspaper tried to elucidate to the IDOT LEFTISTS AND LIBERALISTS through the publication of the cartoons, as stated by that paper's editor).

Don't you liberalists tell me that Islam has no hold on Europe society - just look at the article and the link -

ITS TIME FOR THE LIBERALISTS TO SHUT UP AND HANG THEIR HEADS IN SHAME!!

Art class caves into IslamoFacists

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19349_Hands_Are_OK&only

and something for those Australians who still have a sense of humour (given the intimidation, hatred for white Australians by middle easter thugs, threats of rape to 'strappless, backless clothed' Australian girls by Islamic Sheiks, rape of 'Aussie sluts' who 'deserve it because they are Australian', Aussie bashing at odds 50:1 as happened to Steve B, the 'gun-culture' drive by shootings on Australian homes, and the constant leftist and liberalist taunts that we are racist because we have had enough of our daughters being raped, of being intimidated and threatened and hated because we are white AUstralian infidels!!
we have experienced all the above, and until you spend a night walking about Lakemba at night, or let your daughter walk around their, and see what happens to you, then shut up!

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19352_Toonophobia&only

The "Muslim" problem (if I may call it that) is complex and is the result of many factors that have combined to form a dangerous mix.

1. First of all there is the "numbers" factor. One, two, three Muslims, a thousand and no problem. However, when the numbers of Muslims reach a certain point, the trouble starts. This is not scientific, but it happens. If given a chance, if given the opportunity, if they have enough people, Muslims will try to impose their ideology on others.

Understand that most Muslim are not bad or terrorists, much to the contrary. They are just indifferent and in denial. They will not stand up for your rights and they cannot effectively oppose the radicals. The key word there is "effectively". They will just make excuses. They know about the hate and anger in the Quran, but are in denial. They know about the vile, evil deeds of Mohammad but don't want to think of them.

2. Remember that Muslims do not have a Judeo-Christian heritage or even a Western cultural background, but come from societies based upon concepts such as sharia, jihad and dar al-islam and dar al-harb.

3. Add to these the current policies of PC talk and multiculturalism, that silence any criticism and encourage Muslims to not integrate.

4. Include modern technologies and the globalization movement, which facilitate maintaining a separate cultural identity.

5. On top of all this consider the welfare state which makes work unnecessary and attracts the worse kind of people.

All of these circumstances together make the Muslim "problem" a new phenomenon and an explosive one. Forget past immigration experiences, this is a whole new ball game.

The fact is that Islam is a religion of hate and anger (and denial). Either you face it or you can kiss your freedoms good-bye.

Don't blame the Muslims! They are just doing what their dear prophet did: Denial, then deceit, then hate, then oppression, then murder, then enslavement - and then it really gets bad. Think about it.

John Kactuz

"Radical Muslims kill, moderates make excuses"

Mr Yusuf describes Mark Steyn as a ‘Muslim hater’ and in an above post describes his Australian Op-Ed piece as ‘anti-Semitic’.
Mr Yusuf clearly uses the term anti-Semitic in the sense that people of the Middle East are considered Semitic. In so doing Mr Yusuf is attempting to conflate legitimate concerns on the compatibility of Islam and modern liberal democracy with anti-Semitism.
One can only assume that his implicit argument is that the targets of Mr Steyn’s criticism are victims of prejudice- not unlike the Jewish victims of the Shoah.
No Mr Yusuf, they are not. And no Mr Yusuf, the article was not anti-Semitic.
Of course what makes Mr Yusuf’s ‘anti-Semitic’ tag even more offensive and mendacious is that many of Mr Yusuf’s co-religionists in the Middle East currently fluctuate between admiration for Adolf Hitler and a denial that the Holocaust occurred.
And of course, one presumes that Mr Yusuf was well aware that Mark Steyn is of Jewish descent

I had hope of Irfan being a man of reason.While Muslims did come to Australia 150 yrs ago their numbers were miniscule.It was not until the 1980's that large numbers were invited by our largely Christian population to immigrate here.Irfan seems to implying that this country is up for grabs and he can inflict his Muslim philosophy on us all.

Sorry Irfan,we are tired of the thrust and perry of your word games.

Muslims are further alienating themselves from mainstream Australia.

Oh yes.. all that HATE... and lets never forget.. "If they disagree with we muslims.. they therefore HATE us"...

Steyn raises a legitimate democgraphic question:

* Can a society become more Muslim in its demographic character without also becoming more Muslim in its political and civil character?

Yep..that sounds so much like vitriolic hate to me......*cough*

Irf.. I've told you not to neglect the medication..... c'mon.. wake up mate.

You know how doctors would describe someone attributing 'hate' to 'disagreement'.. I think they call it 'paranoia'

So, first it is 'You canNOT publish cartoons which portray Mohammed
Now its "You can NOT discuss Muslims demographics.."

What next Irf ? I thought I'd left the "Illegal 5 sensitive issues" behind in Malaysia. One of which was of course 'demographics/race'.

I think I'm understanding where all the 'armchair nazi' comments are coming from.. your new mates have infected you :)

OUR women and THEIR women. welllll.. one of my favorite subjects.

Here is the deal. Communities consist of males and females. Tribes, Families, etc.. and (now this might come as a shock) females of families and tribes are connected by blood and relationship... so that it is quite correct to speak of "OUR" women.
Just as it is for women of that community to speak of "OUR" men. duh !

Only complete 'drongo' would impute the idea of 'ownership' to that.. Its never meant it in the past with our culture that I know of.. and I doubt it means it now. It means 'those of our community' .. so get a grip all you try hard wanna be feminazis, surely you can come up with something better to hang a cause on.

So, drongo by game ? = drongo by name.

I'd just like to ask B_D, mikijo and all the other armchair Nazis here a simple question. If the Federal Government decided to round up Muslims and have them detained in detention camps, would you support such a move?

Further, would you support laws that would allow persons of Muslim origin to be killed?

I'm just trying to gauge where all this discussion is heading.

The Australian Newspaper is not alone when it comes to painting a false picture of Muslim Migrants throughout the world there are hundreds of different Newspapers doing just that,I have checked out all those Newspapers that published the cartoons of Mohammed , I was not suprised to find, the majority of the owners of those Newspapers belonged to the same political religious group, a group that I was part of wrote Letters to Editors, we manufactured the contents to find out what kind of letter would be published, racist letters always seemed to get published, During the Hanson period. I was told over 100 letters supporting her were sent to a Newspaper three were printed , they sorted through the letters to find the most racist, that says the Newspapers were not being fair, I am sure the propaganda department of most Newspapers promote the political views of the owners , that is why cartoons of Mohammed were published to insite violence, the wrong people were demonstrated against, our government and the media have been bashing Muslims for many years, ever since Hansonism raised its ugly head, all the racist ratbags came out of hiding, they even use the Australian flag to promote their hatred

Irfan,

Me thinks you are playing the "Devils advocate" and me also thinks you are after another century.

I am sure you know why Muslim males have a poor reputation. Muslim females do not attract complaints regarding their conduct.

The problem is that many Muslim males are unwilling or unable to co-exist or integrate with non-Muslims. How many is difficult to say but is far more than a few, and not restricted to the "Leb gangs".

People who have daily contact describe Muslim males as arrogant, rude, beligewrant, offensive and dictatorial. These Muslim males have attitudes that leave little doubt that they have no respect for others, our society, our laws or Australia in general. The PM is correct when he said their attitude towards women is poor. Everyone knows women are often their subject of abuse and foul language.

I suggest you should stop nit picking about some minor aspects of the Australian's editorial and try to absorb what the editor was getting at. Stop portraying Muslims as victims in our society and try to find ways to build a better reputation for your fellow Muslim males.

This can only be done by Muslims themselves. If not. I believe, at some stage, restrictions will be placed on Muslim immigration.

In unending procession the Muslims of the world find themselves needing to explain their actions and faith. Why is this so?

There needs to be as much soul searching within the faith as outside it. Exhortations of victimisation is not an answer to problems nor a validation for violent actions.

When tired calls for tolerance are repeatedly asked to accept the intolerable because the fault is always attributed to any but those responsible, intolerance is the inevitable conclusion.

The idiots who swarmed out at night and destroyed the cars and terrorised innocent people saw themselves as ambassadors of the Muslim faith. Why? What did the Muslim community do to bring them to justice?

The idiots at Cronulla who set upon the Middle Eastern men were subjected to almost nightly news broadcasts and denigration by their peers. Few escaped censure or justice and rightfully so.

It is time to look a lot deeper than newspapers to find answers.

Well Irfan our "Armchair Nazi Gazer" if we observe the activities of Muslim Nations they are doing exactly what you have suggested.They are rounding up other religions and belief systems and subjugating to their rule of law.Much like the Armchair Nazis whom you pretend to abhor.

I see the Muslim Religion as our new facism that uses the concept of a god to enslave freedom of thought and speech.

Be assured of this,we will fight you to the bitter end.

IRF.. fair question, and I'll give you an honest answer.

1/ Detention of Muslims.

It would depend on the level of conflict which was clearly 'Islam vs Rest' and how much that overflowed to Australia. If for example, there were mass demonstrations by Muslims about some aspect of our culture, such as free speech, publication of images offensive to Muslims, I would consider that close to an 'Act of WAR'. (the civil kind) If so much as ONE person stood on our streets with a sign saying "Kill those who insult the prophet" I would use Ariel Sharons methods, where he promised to bring 'peace' to Gaza in 3 months and did so. Such a person, would be thrown away to Baxter for a few years, faster than he could say S.A.W. and anyone who then demonstrated on his behalf, would join him.

2/ Laws to Kill Muslims ? (or anyone)

Invaders can be killed, if ur not invading, ur safe.

I have not the slightest interest in killing people 'because they are Muslims'. I have a strong sense of Australian nationhood, and the only time killing is legitimate is in defense of ones homeland.

If I used the 'Muslim' approach to such things, I would be killing people at the slightest excuse, no matter how convoluted.

TREATY OF HUDAYBIYA
Using Mohammed as the example, and Treaty of Hudaybiya where he used the incident of some tribesman allied to the Quraysh who killed some tribesman of a tribe allied to Mohammed, though the Quraysh tried to compensate, Mohammed decided to attack (now that he was stronger.)

But the 'Emporer' has a responsiblity to defend the state, and carries the 'sword' with that in mind (Romans 13)

WEAPONS. I would order the Army in to Lakemba/Punchbowl/Greenacre and do house to house searches for weapons.. Glock pistols.. semi auto weapons. Sharon used the approach "If any Palestinian was carrying a weapon, he was shot on sight" We wouldn't go quite that far.

Irfan,

The mention of "armchair Nazis" in your simple questions no doubt highlights your frustration.

You are missing a point though...

First, no doubt Islam is a threat to freedom and democracy and MUST be challenged at all time. It's call VIGILANCE, a bit like periodic chemotherapy to counter the growth and spread of a cancer. (You may not liken Islam to a cancer, but that's besides the point).

Perhaps you cope quite a fair bit here as a Muslim. But let's face it, you do enjoy your life-style in Australia, don't you ?

Alternatively, what would your life be like in an Islamic state? Cordial brotherhood all round? With your stature, you may even be a well respected elder there.

So which is the lesser evil for you?

If your life is better in an Islamic state, then it confirms freedom and democracy is not for Muslims. We should do the right thing by Muslims - deport them all to Islamic States where they have a better life.

If however you see the merit of freedom and democracy here, then do accept you have to put up with the side-effects of periodic chemotherapy against that cancer. It is PART and PARCEL of Islam's co-existence with the liberal west.

You are asking too much if you expect us to drop our guard against Islam.

I reckon I agree with most of the comments to some degree,
but point out that the article is written by a lawyer. These people are able to debate a point very effectively whether they agree with it or not.
Everyone I know from ethnic backgrounds has a desire to fit in with the laid back way of life we currently enjoy. I admit, I dont really know any moslems. My limited experience of the moslem faith includes an Australian family in Bankstown somewhere where they built a mosque and tower to blast out the prayers at high volume. There was no consideration of these residents' desire for peaceful suburban life.
The other experience was at Holland Park in Brissie where some new neighbours rocked up and erected a 4metre high tarp round the place, and the wife stayed behind the tarp. Presumably curtains or establishing a garden is not sufficient.
Newspapers only print what people want to read, interpret it how you will, but the Australian speaks for a more educated demographic than some other papers.
The hysteria of Cronulla or the Skaf brothers are grist for the mill in regard to redneck denegration of one faith over another, All faith should be phased out as should cigarettes, politics, concern over the wheat board and ridiculous petrol prices.
As previously stated, why arent people asked at the metaphoric front gate "do you REALLY want to be part of this?"
Some can manage seemingly well i.e. the seikhs at Coffs and FNQ, ...well you get my point?

Many interesting posts, however I do firmly believe the author of the article is portraying himself as a victim.
I actually lived side by side with Islam for two years, as well as other religions, even had a Muslim worker in our own home for that whole period and I must say, my interaction with such people at that time, left me with many very pleasant memories.
SADLY, the branch of Islam I was familiar with, was NOT of Middle Eastern heritige but ASIAN.
It was also very pleasant to witness people of differing religions cohabiting together extrmely well without rancour, arrogance or vilification, something I find very rampant with people of M.E. back ground.
Frankly, I'm very tired of hearing how difficult things are supposed to be for these Muslim emigrants and would suggest much of this difficulty is brought about by their own actions and behaviour.
With all due respect to them for their devotion to their chosen religion, I'd suspect things would go much easier for them, if they began to treat their new fellow Australians in exactly the same manner that they themselves would like to be treated.
They may be in for a very pleasant surprise.

Boaz,
Is that really what you take from Romans 13?
Doesn't it, like a lot of Paul's letters, actually go to the fact that living a life in accordance with christian belief is living in accordance with the laws of the land? Does it not go to how to live a life of love and decency?

Perhaps Irfan and/or other Muslim posters might say where a living a christian life would contravene sharia law: at least in so far as there are any religious prohibitions contained in sharia law, and to the extent they have an idea of what a life lived in accordance with christian belief might be.

odsoc

I am beginning to suspect that some people here are not actually Australian. Certainly, they are not acting Australian.

Thor is mouthing off at left-wing liberals (capital letters and all) suggesting he is an American. It's never made sense to me why a liberal is left-wing. The US has enough racial troubles without having those problems imported here.

David BOAZ want to send the Army into the suburbs. So perhaps he's actually living in some place where that happens, but its unthinkable to a real Australian.

GZ Tan makes an interesting point about chemo, but he seems to be very confused about its use. Australian chemotherapy called the Anti-Discrimination Act and it's used to make sure our freedom and democracy is protected from cancerous bigots and racists.

Unless there is something wrong with Australian values, which there isn't, its gonna be another "turkey shoot" (I put that one in for Thor.)

I notice these last posts have making very general statements now, because every time they say something specific, it gets skewered. Just like BOAZ with his tribal demographics. He wasn't able to handle real ABS statistics last time, so he now uses fuzzy maths.

They remind me of a nasty gang of thugs called 'National Action'. They put out a lot of grafitti about Asians and cowardly attacks. Of course, thanks to Bin Laden, today it's muslims who are "fashionable" to accuse of everything under the sun. Bin Laden must be so pleased with the likes of Banjo, kactuz and numbat. He's saying to you "keep up the good work!"

Jimmyj,

First when you say Sharia law I assume you are talking about the criminal justice part of it. Correct me if my assumption is wrong.

- I would take the UK stats with a grain of salt. Questions should separate family, inheritance & custody laws from criminal justice laws.
- I would be surprised if more than 10% of Australian Muslims would want to see Shariaa law in Australia. The Australian Muslims are non-reflective since the majority are Lebanese/ Shiite Muslims. I think it will be much less in sunnis.
- Would you prefer Sharia law? If a Muslims does not want to live under Shariaa law is it a sin?

The 2 questions are linked:

First, Shariaa laws are contextual and meant to be protective and preventive rather than corrective. The debate between Muslims is taking two views:
- ‘The literals: ie the sentence should be applied as is. (like Dr Qaradawy for example)
- The moderates or pro-modernisation (like Dr H. Hanafi) who say that the context should apply (ie harsh sentencing) but the content is not relevant for today. For example, a drug dealer or a rapist will be executed or locked away for life is equally harsh context to what was carried out 14 centuries ago.

The literals schools of thought are dominant in certain Muslim practices like Shiite (Iran), Wahhabis (Saudi) and one strict sunni practice known as Hanbalies.
Majority of sunnis are more likely to think in contexts and modernise using precedents.

Peace,

irfan: First I am not an "arm-chair nazi" I could tell you where to go to see moslem leaders pictured with hitler and other nazi leaders. I could show you pictures of 'moslem SS'groups But for me and mine we fought against them and beat them - thankfully.
Would I be for incarcerating moslem terrorists YES! Would I be for deporting these miserable, cunning, bloodthirsty gutless lying murderers and their backers YES!
Why? because having seen the nazis in action then, now I see a similar group which not only uses racial hatred but also religious hatred to fuel their inhuman bastardry. This group also thinks they have the right to rule the world and enforce their pagan brutal religion on all. At the same time I realise that these animals may at present be in the minority in islam. Yet I do not nor have not seen the so-called moderate kind civilised islamics voicing any protest over the bloody barbaric actions done by the few nasties except for one or two VERY! occasionally. irfan why oh why don't you understand our worries about you and yours. Why don't you read the newspapers. Why don't you watch the TV news or listen to the radio news bulletins? If you did any or all of these things you may just may understand our concerns. "Ours" meaning those of all ethnic stock and all other pagan religions who value Australia and the freedoms we have here. numbat

"Tell me one country that retains its peaceful status after taking in Muslim immigrants."

Are you trying to alledge that Muslims 'ruin' the place or that they're simply more 'deviant'?

To answer your question, America, see below:

"59% of American Muslims have at least an undergraduate education, making them the most highly educated group in America. Muslim Americans are also the richest Muslim community in the world, with four in five earning more than $25,000 a year and one in three more than $75,000. They tend to be employed in professional fields, and most own stock, either personally or through 401(k) or pension plans. In terms of civic participation, 82% are registered to vote, half of them as Democrats." http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007151

Guten Tag Irfan

Armchair Nazi Carnifex here just listening to the 'Horst Wessel Lied'.

In response to your detaining/killing mossies question.

I'd like to give the women the option of getting out. I've known a few mossie sheilas in my time and they're thoroughly decent sorts. The blokes generally suck.

Anyway, every mossie sheila I've known thinks islam sucks. Take them away from islam the whole rotten house comes down. You may have a few converts in the form of Mr Latimer and such

I do believe that raiding mossie homes and cars belonging to young mossie blokes for firearms in the Auburn, Lakemba, Bankstown area would be a good idea.

I've had mossie security guards as workmates, they all had pistols and said many mossies have one. They offered to sell me one, told the cops about it and it being the Ryan era said they can't really do anything about it and that I'd probably get knee capped for my trouble.

Wow! Irfan, I have been called many names but 'Armchair Nazi!' Wait until I tell my mob they can now "sig heil" when they address me.
'Kill all Muslims ',you said, sorry that sounds more like the suicide bombers and the mosque bombers. It is not Australian to act like that.
You sound hurt , sorry about that but I would like to see ,in Australia ,every single imam deported, every mosque closed down and every Islamic education establishment likewise closed down. Peacefully if possible, forcefully if necessary.
I would like to see Multiculturism expunged from our history as a failed experiment wished on us by the simpering poseurs of the left.
I would like to see my country return to the peaceful way it was.
That is what I would wish on my land.

Irfan

This makes the half century. You'l make the ton no trouble, especially with a bit of help at the other end from DL.

Just want you to know that I agreed with your comments re the cartoons and it hasn't gone unnoticed that there have been no protests here.

Probably some person or persons put a lot of work into prevention and keeping the lid on some hotheads, which is good. When offended, object by all means, but do so in a proper way and to the right people.

A big step in the right direction. I hope those responsible get recognized for it.

Irfan,
Mine is a comment of self preservation, I was never a racist, until recently, I greeted everyone in the same way, whether they were Italian Australians, English Australians, Filipino Australians, I can only give one comment which is shared by all other Australians, they do not put their religion before their country. For example I have never heard of a Catholic Australian, a Buddist Australian etc.

Now however we have seen an example of Muslim Australians in Sydney, and as Australians we do not like what we see. It is not beyond the realms of possibility to make the comment, that we have defended our country in the past, and will do it in the future if necessary. If we percieve a threat to our way of life, whether from overseas or within, we will fight to defend what is ours. Personally I would like to see the man who said "We shall decide who comes here, and the circumstances under which they come" accept the responsibility of allowing these lunatics to come, and also after having accepted that responsibility, remove them, whether they are Methodist, Muslim or Caliathumpian, if they can be deported then get rid of them.

Part 1

The “Arab Street” conspiracy theories are quite a laugh. My personal favorite is the one where Israel was actually behind the September 11th attacks, what a thigh-slapper!
Saying that every Muslim is out for World domination and hates the West shows the same level of intellect. Best I stop buying a kebab from that bloke down the road, afterall I don’t want to fund the global conspiracy.

The radical elements who hate the West are who we need to sort out. This is best done in liaison with the moderates in the Muslim community.

Problem with that is that a lot of people who are put up to the media as moderates are at the best suffering from superiority complexes and at the worst haters of our way of life. Sheik Hilali’s “poetry reading” in Beirut spoke volumes. Here is a “moderate” who the police wanted out and was only saved by being a numbers man for the Labor party. Keysar Trad comes across well on the radio but some of his articles online demonstrate that he feels his culture is superior and ours is decadent if not disgusting. A lot of the Islamic councils spokespeople seem to be similarly wolves in sheeps clothing.

Most Muslims in Sydney are more concerned about the next Bulldogs result that global domination but how do we engage with these people? Please do not tell me that there is no such thing as they are all evil, possessed by Satan etc. From the way that muslims who seem moderate are treated on this site, I would not want to be in their spot. Perhaps civil dialogue might be a start.

Part 2

I too was extremely concerned about Muslim immigration up until statistics were released after Dana Domestic made her statement and an article came out quoting DIMA. I do not know if I read this wrong but it indicated that Middle Eastern Muslim immigrants are coming in the massive wave – to the tune of about 10,000 a year. If I am completely incorrect in these figures, please let me know. There were more Malaysian muslims (top ten in input countries) but they actually have less children than the Australian average. Unless the Islamic population of Australia bumps there productive output up to around 50 kids a family, we are a long way from being overrun.

If this figure is even remotely correct – what’s the problem? If Muslims are truly evil and after world domination we will see it happen in France and other areas of Europe before it happens here and can react to it by whatever means are necessary. In the meantime, banning the nutcase sects (wahabism), cracking down on the disgusting imams, and trying to work things out with our fellow Australians (they are Australians) is the only logical path to take. Vitriol and deathcamp talk comes from la-la land and serves no purpose.

Prepare for an avalanche of vitriol and death-camp talk, Jimmyj.

What i want to know from moderate Muslims is how do they feel about these unelected mouthpieces being held up as leaders of their communities? It seems inherently undemocratic in a country where we have elected representatives. it's like if George Pell was to go around claiming to represent me.

Responding to jimmyj:

You made a very interesting comment when you said "we will see it happen in France and other areas of Europe before it happens here and can react to it by whatever means are necessary." Banjo also said "it hasn't gone unnoticed that there have been no protests here." Finally, the news today told of the arrest of thugs from the Cronulla revenge attacks. Great news! Well done, NSW police! (It also shows that everyone gets the same treatment.)

All this points to Australia working well: success for honest and hard working; punishment for the guilty; and fairness to all.

My additional point is that France and Germany are not on the same track as Australia. French policies back only French culture, with all the regretful consequences. Until 2000, German children with migrant parents did not get citizenship, which meant they couldn't vote. So perhaps rather than France look to the United Kingdom. They have similar policies to Australia and a larger muslim population. But I think Australia will out perform the UK, because of our 'fair go' attitude.

Response to KRS1:
According to the Islamic Council of NSW website, the council members are elected at an AGM, and the Chairman was elected. State and territory councils makeup the national council. No different from other community organisations.

Jimmyj

Assuming you had a choice who would you have representing you?

Sheik Hilaly, George Pell, Kim Beazley or John Howard?

;-)

Could I expand on a question I asked previously. It seems many of you hear support the incarceration of Muslims. How then would you recognise whether someone is Muslim? How would the police recognise someone as Muslim? Are there any peculiar cultural or ethnic characteristics to look out for? I'd be happy to hear your suggestions.

If Keyser Trad and Sheik Hilay are moderates whom we can trust,then we're in more trouble than I thought.The contradictory statements that eminate from their mouths is amazing.They walk both sides of the fence to maximise their own popularity.

Can jimmy suggest some credible moderates?

Keith – if I had to choose between Sheik Hilaly, George Pell, Kim Beazley or John Howard to defend me – I think I would slash my own wrists thank you – your choice is no choice! ... and of course, I have often wondered why I was not all that fond of Ifran – he is a lawyer, someone regarded somewhat lower than a used car salesman or politician

In Jordan and Egypt they are still jailing journalists discussing the Profit and showing those cartoons.
Furor Over Cartoons Pits Muslim Against Muslim
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/international/middleeast/22cartoons.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
Not to mention those very friendly native Moslem Hausas killing of Christians from southern Nigeria – are they not a very peacefull mob?
At least 27 dead in Nigeria riots
ONITSHA, Nigeria (Reuters) - Revenge attacks against Muslims killed at least 27 people in southeastern Nigeria on Wednesday after anti-Christian violence killed dozens and left thousands homeless in the mainly Muslim north.

"There are thousands of boys with cutlasses and sticks on the rampage. I've counted at least 20 bodies here by the Onitsha bridge," said Reuters photographer George Esiri in the southeastern commercial hub of Onitsha.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060222/ts_nm/religion_nigeria_dc
However having the benefit of a read through the net of late, these gems have come up from Iraq of Muslims fighting and killing Muslims and Muslims bombing each others churches – just like the Irish

Shrine Bombing Brings Deadly Reprisals
By ZIAD KHALAF, Associated Press
SAMARRA, Iraq - Insurgents detonated bombs inside one of Iraq's holiest Shiite shrines Wednesday, destroying its golden dome and triggering more than 90 reprisal attacks on Sunni mosques. The president warned that extremists were pushing the country toward civil war, as many Shiites lashed out at the United States as partly to blame.

As the gold dome of the 1,200-year-old Askariya shrine lay in ruins, leaders on both sides called for calm: But the string of back-and-forth attacks seemed to push the country closer to all-out civil war than at any point in the three years since the U.S.-led overthrow of Sadam Hussein
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Response to Ifram:

Just want to pick on your mentioning the word "police", because it suggests that police could be involved in this mass incarceration. There is no way Australian police would be involved. So one could ask "who would be doing the rounding-up?"

To Irfan.

With 70 Australian girls raped by Muslim race hate rape packs at the time of the Olympics, with 13 Muslim men in custody charged with plotting to mass murder Australian commuters, with a race riot at Cronulla beach caused entirely by the unacceptable behaviour of Muslim men towards other beachgoers, with teachers in NSW refusing to teach in Muslim area public schools in NSW out of fear for themselves and their property, with every public official from police, ambulance officers, RTA employees, even NPWS officers complaining about the intimidatory behaviour of Muslim people, with high rates of criminal behaviour and welfare dependency in Muslim ghettoes, I think that it was entirely fair for “The Australian” newspaper to conclude that all is not well with Muslim cultural attitudes in Australia.

If you want to do your own religion a favour, Irfan, stop being a polished apologist for the unacceptable behavior of it’s adherents, and start looking at those aspects of Muslim culture that are entirely offensive to the citizens of the country to who’s ranks the Muslims claim they aspire to join.

These include a medieval mindset that appears to consider that violence should be used as a first resort whenever confronted by a trivial personal problem. A totally unacceptable attitude by Muslim men towards the status of women, a persecution complex, and an inability to consider without rabid hostility the merest suggestion that the tenets of Islam could be wrong about anything.

ODSOC your quite right. Romans 13 is exactly about that. The point I was making is that the 'Emporer' of the state has a responsibility to keep order, and that he 'wields the sword' to deter the evildoer.
I don't think Romans 13 makes a distinction between a Non Christian Emperor and a Christian one. I hope that clarifies.

IRFAN.. careful there ... tread carefully ok... we made a very clear distinction between 'Muslims' and 'those who wave signs like 'kill those who insult the prophet'. Or taunting Australians with how they will crawl when the mujahadin come. They are the ones would be incarcerated. Its tantamount to crapping on a persons face while they are held down.. No one who says such things is in my view Australian.
They are enemies of the state and its citizens. (I regard hardline communists in the same way)
Asking the question "How would u recognize a Muslim" just after a generalized 'incarceration' comment,(which was misleading in itself) you are clearly BAITING !

DAVID LATIMER you seem to have been sucked in by Irfans bait.. who spoke about incarcerating ALL Muslims ? I say incarcerate ANY enemy of the state, Muslim or otherwise.

This is the classic left/green/Muslim ploy and cry of victimhood "You disagree with us, so you HATE ALL of us"

Your comment to the ABC this morning in that interview, "Australian values are evolving" is indicative of your position "We don't know who we are, and 'who/what' we are is up for grabs by the most dominant social group".

If you don't know Aussie values by now you need therapy, or a stint in a re-education camp :) They have been listed time and again in these forums usually in connection with ths SAME question and in threads on "Multiculturalism".

TAMPA was raised in the same report, and it was suggested that Howard 'changed' the country with that. I disagree, he merely caught up !

I know the level of emotion going on in 100% of Aussies who I spoke to (at random)around Tampa time and the feeling was INTENSE.

Carnifex,

So its not really you, but everyone you know think poorly of Islam, even the Muslims you know!

I am regular audience of Seinfeld and Raymond, but you deserve a spot on TV.

Peace,

Irfan,

As a good lawyer (oxymoron) you should know about the implications of your double edged type of questioning.

Many HYPOCRITS tried to trap Jesus with such questions: "should the Jews pay taxes to the Romans?” or “If a woman is married several times, whose wife she will be in heaven?” … all designed to ambush him. Whatever the answer it will “incriminate” him.

But Jesus being God incarnate could read their minds and knew exactly what was in their hearts…

You already describe your opposition as Armchair Nazis – whatever what that means to you – funny though, because you are a mouthpiece representing muslims WHO are warring against the rest of the world and you have te audacity to call (us) names for defending our freedoms.

I don’t know what your game plan is or what ambitious plot you are cooking up for yourself but a HYPOCRITE you are like the rest of your muslim connivers.

As to how to recognise a muslim? Not as hard as you’re implying.

1) dress code
2) super charged noisy cars usually with 2 or more occupants
3) Friday mosques
4) ghettoes
5) identifiable t-shirts at Uni
6) picnic spreads, nargileh (pot) smoking, lound music…
7) male or female hangouts, coffee shops, malls
8) symbols and decorative art, in cars, shops, etc
9) 7 seaters, minibuses, SUVs, driving at 20k below the speed limit
10) turbulent children

An easier suggestion would be the proverbial ID card... but I can hear the uproar already...

I've stayed out of this thread because meh, heard it all before, but gee Coach, that has to be the stupidest list I've ever seen. "Turbulent children"?! "Super charged noisy cars"?!

Gee, my aunt & uncle with their very anglo, very noisy and rambunctious children must not have told me they are changing religion. And my very anglo younger brother with his beefed up ute with loud doof-doof music must be showing he's secretly changing his previously athiest views. Interesting. I'll keep it in mind.

well done coach, you have exceded even your high standards.

jesus may have refused to answer, but in the immortal words of Bob: "yeah, but you aint him". so an answer to ifrans questions if you please. i wont hold my breath.

but on to your list....

its a little ironic, but appart from the mosques(dead giveaway that one) you seem to have given the best description of 'ordinary' australians we have had on this site in a good while. cars, kids, music, picnics, shops, music, t-shirts(wearing one now, does that mean im a muslim?).

by these standards we must all be muslims and not know it yet. poor old danna vale, she's 50 years behind.

but keep up the good work old chap, you have brightend up an otherwise boring morning.

irfan: No one wants to lock up all pagan moslems only those who advocate the destruction of the freedoms, including freedom of religion, we enjoy in this WESTERN nation.
How do we recognise pagan moslems? :-)
1. Women dressed in 'funny?' clothing including a big black sheet and looking through what appears to be a grill or bird cage.
2. Women walking at least thirty paces behind their men-folk with their heads down carrying the shopping and looking after the kids.
3. Men dressed as arabs with funny hat wear.
4. Men about all day every day so a moral to be on welfare or a disability pension. Of course these blokes would have been checked out by their pagan moslem doctor so all is legit.
5. Constant whinging about how badly they are treated by the , in their view, Australian Christian underclass.
6. Men can be seen at beaches perving on 'white' women and making inappropriate advances even to threatening rape. When knocked back assail these same women as Australian whores.
:-) They are some of the ways irfan. :-)
Those pagan moslems who write in this forum always whinge at how bad they are treated all because of a few bombers in varied countries and threatening us here with the same type bombs - unless we behave and convert - and how well their women are treated and how free they are as well just how much they love their wonderful garb and being dominated by their men-folk. Again irfan look around this globe and see what is happening in moslem nations and the decent nations where moslems have been allowed to settle. Go on irfan turn your TV on, listen to your radio, read the newspapers. Failing that listen to the hate filled anti-western, anti democracy sermons in your local mosque. numbat

The Islamic community is doomed. It is truly sad to come to the realisation that everytime something is said about the Islamic community, no matter how much evidence there is to support it, those like Irfan come out defending their extremely fragile identity.

I really don't know where Europe & Australia will go from here, considering there truly don't seem to be ANY moderates at all!

How can Irfan defend his point, it is totally wrong. Moreover, he actually, through some of his points, MAKES THE CASE FOR THE AUSTRALIAN better than they even did.

He comments that the Australian is wrong to say it's the most recent Muslim migrants that are causing trouble, that it is really the Lebanese & Pakistan communities, who have been here longer that are causing trouble.

Irfan, what you said was perfect! That, no the recent arrivals are ok, it's the ones here for 30 years doing the damage. So you've just made the case that Muslim migrants are dangerous, don't mix in, extremely ethnocentric (as their kids are even more extremist) and that they DON'T mix in after a generation. You should apply for a job there.

For you Muslims to jump up & down when someone says the most, rational, diplomatic thing like "There are some Muslims who wish to impose Sharia on us" is insane.

You don't see white people get angry when the media do stories on white supremacists, why would we feel offended unless we supported them. But herein lies the problem. Your leaders are extremists. Keysar Trad doesn't need introduction, his comments when Aussie captive in Iraq, Douglas Wood, said his captors were "arseholes", trad said "he is ungrateful since they did feed, cloth him and give him medicine".

THIS MEANS KEYSAR TRAD SUPPORTS EXTREMISTS. I also note his lack of care about the bombing of the holy shi'ite mosque (John Laws radio program).

PART TWO

He's a Sunni, so he hates Shi'ites. You Muslims are so factional, divided, it's a wonder any of you think about taking over this place, you all turn on each other over the drop of a hat. This is because, in general, communities like yours are ETHNOCENTRIC & RACIST to the core.

WHat on earth is wrong with the comments of those editors? I don't think they go far enough. We need to hear MUSLIMS CONDEMN Sharia law,

Where do you stand on Sharia Law Irfan? We'll I'll tell you. As a Muslim, you believe Sharia is divinely inspired, and are instructed to take it to the whole world, by any means, so tell us where you stand on it because we all need to know if you're a NAZI too like most of your leaders.

At times you appear to have insight, so all I can imagine is that you weren't bought up very strict. Start to see that you are only Muslim because your parents were Muslim, and that, if you were born in Ireland you'd be a Christian.

Having realised this, you will see that the best system for the world is western developed, invented, HUMAN RIGHTS, which protect everyone equally, and unlike sharia, don't treat outsiders like crap.

Sharia Law will never take hold in the west, all that would happen is the leftists who think of you all as exotic pets would realise that you bite and would jump ship. We'd be forced to go against our tolerant nature and vote in parties similiar to that of 1930's Europe.

Irfan, denounce Sharia. How dare you not? You think homosexuals should be stoned to death? How intolerant. You think apostates should die? And none of this crap like that's just an aspect of Sharia. I listen to the scholars at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, where the foremost experts on Islam reside, and they say these things

As an "armchair nazi" I wondered how I would look look if I had a toothbrush moustache so I held a toothbrush in front of my face in the mirror . Maybe it was the handle, but it wasn't me! I will just have to keep on trying.
Keyser Trad and other Islamic luminaries have stated that Australia was settled by "reject crooks and scum of Europe"
I would say,"Look at what we are getting now!"
Also compare the Australia built by 'crooks and scum' with the ugliness and brutality of the failed ME countries.
We have had just over two hundred years to bring about a modern, thriving civilisation compared to thousands of years of backward miserable countries where, unfortunately, many of todays migrants are coming from, dragging their backward miserable ideals with them.
John Howard and Peter Costello are talking the truth... but ten years too late. Why it has taken the government so long to wake up to the facts of multiculture only they can answer. They have a lot to answer for.

“Editorial writers of 'The Australian' seek to paint a picture of a monolithic culture of recently arrived Muslim migrants”
Great, we can wave to them when they board the ship to depart. Without any welfare. We Australians hate to see disappointment in peoples faces, and we are sorry things did not work out- Maybe in another 2000 years- give it a try, until then Good BY.
Ill Promise I will not cry.

Mickijo, do not worry, Irfan calling anyone an armchair Nazi is like being called Bart Simpson.
For a population of supposed 280 odd thousand , don't they reach Authoritarian status fast, and then dictate what you can and not do in our home, and then try shut us up when we resist, sounds NAZI to me, so do not concern your self. It is a reverse tactic they use to install guilt. Arab stuff you know.
Fellow colleague: Irfan hay, Hahahahahahahahahah. Fairdinkum .

Response to David Latimer:

Not to sure the UK parallel makes me feel better as:
1- Terrorist attacks from the domestic population are not good.
2 – On Sheik “kill-all-infidels” Al-Masri - “According to a POPULUS survey from December 2005, Muslims in Britain oppose his views by a factor of two-to-one; however, among the age group 18-24, the figures are reversed, and two out of three who expressed an opinion agree with his views.” Any support whatsoever for him is also not good.
3 – The idea of demonstrations by people dressed as suicide bombers in Sydney is likewise not good.
4 – Having spent 5 years in the UK and 2 of them just outside of Bradford, I would have to say that if the UK experience is what we are looking towards, Coach is starting to sound better. Apologist Europe is gradually disappearing up its own bottom by tolerating the intolerant Islamics with the UK probably running a close third to France and Germany. Note – not good.

Interestingly, the Western country with the most successful Muslim population is the USA (or Great Satan if you prefer). The USA does not subscribe to multicultural dogma, preferring an integration/assimilation model. Given the bile spewing forth from Canberra in the last few weeks, I wonder if we are not heading towards a more US model sooner than later.

Response to Keith:
I reckon you can connect the dots on that one mate.

Response to Arjay:
I would prefer we were discussing things with Hazim el Mazri as a representative of Islamic Australia than the two-faced jokers we are dealing with now. He is smart, well respected and anyone who reckons he has not embraced Australian culture would need to get their head read. From what I can see from this forum, they could also do worse than Fellow_Human. I have no idea why Islamic hierarchies seem to end up with the dregs rising to the top rather than the bottom – any suggestions that do not include lessons in ancient history would be appreciated (perhaps its like local council politics).

I haven't been here for a while, but I've just realised there is another one.......(deleted for flaming) here. Another leftist who reacts on emotion, using no logic, has probably never caught a train let alone been to western Sydney, which just so happens to be where I grew up in the 1980's & 90's.

David Latimer, you need to be educated. People who spout off emotional gunk like "Now it's fashionable to hate Muslims" are deluding themselves. People have serious discussions here, about real threats.

Your posts reveal your naivety. People like you presume to call Australians racist without any facts. To go on your chemotherapy reference, when logic prevails in the west, and the leftist media are removed, those with your attitudes will beg for forgiveness.

I'll go before I get nasty.

Irfan

Have you read the latest from your fellow Muslim Bashir Goth?
He's saying similar to a great many of your 'Arm-chair Nazis'.

Now either Bashir is an Arm chair Nazi or ...well you can guess the alternative. In case you cannot 'self-criticism' is of huge import.

To JimmyJ:

My intention was not to make anyone feel better. If you remember saying that we should watch Europe so "we can react to it by whatever means are necessary", it's in that context I refer to the UK, as the parallels are better than with France. I believe Australia is appropriately reacting and picking up the lessons, so you are right about that.

A good point about the US, though they describe themselves as a “melting pot”, neither multicultural nor assimilative. They have a strict separation of church and state and there’s strength in that. Their citizenship classes are an excellent idea. Why on earth call the US, the Great Satan? Not funny.

To DavidBOAZ:

I simply wanted to keep the police out of any fictionalising. Nevertheless, it is pointless to say “who spoke about incarcerating ALL Muslims?” and talk about it being a ploy, when you’ve added the word “ALL” yourself. I said “mass incarceration” because you said that “mass demonstrations by Muslims” on cultural matters would be “close to an Act of War”. It could be a legal and peaceful demonstration? Ifram just said “muslims”. Mickijo said he wanted “every single imam deported, every mosque closed down and every Islamic education establishment likewise closed down. Peacefully if possible, forcefully if necessary” – echoes of Kristallnacht.

A 1975 High Court judgement said: “A law which kept migrants or anyone else in a subordinate role inconsistent with the status of a free person, would be incompatible with a fundamental basis of our Constitution.”

Peter Costello: “There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution”

Think about our fundamental values, our constitution, the supremacy of law and what Australia stood for and fought over 100+ years. Why expect any rational person to replace all this for exaggerated bigotry?

This is the bait of Osama Bin Laden. He’s saying “we muslims are gonna get you” and you believe it and criticise Irfan for opposing that. That’s madness.

To the Fashionista:

Please quote correctly. Very inaccurate post.

So much bigotry. So much ignorance. I am surprised that this is not seen as flame.

I can give a reason why the second and third generation are worse than the recently arrived-because they are physically attacked and abused at school-no doubt by the children of people like most of the posters here.

Never attack an entire religious group. The specific actions and ideologies of individuals-yes and the specific doctrines that you find offensive with a reasoned and logical case but not all the members. The amount of Moslem bashing that is going on this thread includes so much blind bigotry and hatred.

I have a relative who converted to Islam who is a valued member of our extended family. Through him I have got to know many moslems. They are not all the stereotypes that are served up on this thread, and they certainly don't deserve the vitreolic attacks on them that are happening here. Many of them are extremely well educated-including the women. Many of them have very loving relationships and families-in fact for that they put our western culture to shame.

I have spoken to a range of australians who tell me they became moslem because they were upset about the disintegration of family life in our culture and they were sick of the gross emphasis on sex and beer.

The women especially and they like dressing modestly. It is one of the reasons they converted-yes they chose it because they felt exploited by western men for sex and found the men of the local moslem community were more respectful to them. We are talking about individuals here. I will not say there aren't other moslems who are not respectful but the community I have come to know are very respectful and loving towards their women and towards non-moslems and they always treated me simply as a human being and not someone to convert, villify or ignore.

But my moslem relative and his wife have been harrassed, spat on in the street, abused, given death threats, his wife has been threatened with rape even when she is just going shopping because she wears the hijab and they've been threatened their children will be kidnapped and killed. I am ashamed I live in a culture that can threaten peaceful and loving people (and I am now talking about the individuals) like that.

The result is they have left Australia and are living in a moslem country to escape from the abuse. They could see how detrimental it would be for their children to be brought up in a country that hated and abused them. He had to leave his extended family who loves him and as a very sociable person who has a wide range of moslem and non-moslem friends he has also had to leave them.

No doubt their are many on this list who would think that a good thing. But your blind bigotry could create the enemy you expect simply because you give others little other choice.

What a cheek when you support the invasion of their countries. The migrants didn't invade ours. They came in peacefully. Not with 'Shock and Awe' tactics to beat them into submission bombing mothers, children and babies. The twin towers were one terrorist group that didn't even have any links to Iraq. The palestinians were forced from their homes, they were militarily attacked and had to run, their lives shattered-then every time one of them does something wrong to the Israelis their entire family and their community is attacked-individuals cannot say 'but I want peace it was his fault' the whole lot are thrown in the same basket. Yet it doesn't even sink into your heads how that would feel. Just try imagining it being you. hmm-not likely most on this list would try that.

Don't come back and tell me there are bad moslems-I know that. Don't come back and say the Koran says this and this-I know that. None of that justifies this kind of behaviour.

Aziliz - as usual the voice of reason.

I too socialise and have worked with Muslims. The most vitriolic of the posters to this thread clearly do not know many Muslims well. They probably don't want to get to know them for fear that they will discover that Muslims are just like the rest of us - good, bad, whatever.

The lists posted by Coach & Numbat could fit many people. Not all Aussies dress in 'normal' clothes (some of my more alternative friends wear some very strange gear) or have quiet kiddies or lack a boom box in their cars. The comments by people such as these reveal their ignorance and don't need to be deleted because in their absurdity they show just how dumb some people can be.

I tried an experiment last year when I wrapped the scarf I was wearing around my head hijab style. Travelling on public transport, I was subsequently jostled and given the kind of looks I would've thought reserved for paedophiles.

I can well believe the experiences of your Muslim friends, Aziliz.

Cheers

Best keep that Arab Propaganda for the Middle East, it is not, and will not be welcome here. Reverse Psychology is easily detected. If you are not happy, then pack your bags and get out. Continuing down that line of thought will only prove futile and counterproductive. You are indeed not THE VICTIM, if you are; it is of your own belligerence.
We have had enough of the Cultural Marxists and the Typical adopted Islamic methodology of deception and Linguistic corruption, and before you start with more Psychological reversing tactics, understanding the root cause. And you will find it is your own pathetic Ideology. We have just as much contempt for our own pathological corrupt, so take them back with you. Good By.

Australia is a Land of a Fair Go- not have a unfair go at it’s population and steal its foundations and values

Hi Scott and Aziliz

You have described some despicible behaviours.

However the problem is not of bigotry but more ignorance.
I have engaged many Muslims in dialogue. I have many questions as I lack a great understanding of the way of life of many Muslims
I have no fear of being overrun, raped or murdered.
I do however have some very great concerns about the cohesion and future of our multi-cultural society. In particular my concern is similar to those recently expressed by Peter Costello. Underlying our not so 'mushy' multuiculturalism are precepts concerning commitment to the Constitution, parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech and religion, english as the national language, the rule of law, acceptance and equality.

On many occassions I have asked individual Muslims of their acceptance of these notions. Indeed in fairness I have followed Irfan's lead and now often ask for a definition of Australian Multi-culturalism.

Many avoid the question, others answer in an oblique way that says little but a great deal by inference, and many are totally unaware of these things.

I don't hate anybody, I fear ignorance and I worry about the future for my kids.

So my point is would you two like to do as I have done. Then draw your own conclusions. I think you'd be surprised at the lack of understanding of the need to commit to these things while living in Australia. I think that needs to be overcome. If that's done most of the current devisive discussion and obrium will disappear.

Regards

ANY Australian, white (Northern European) or otherwise, is free to leave this country if they are not happy here. Sorry whites, but you only claim ownership.

I think Australians would have accepted muslims had the muslims been acceptable. However they chose to come here as "asylum seekers" , after disposing of their passports on the way. Rioting and the sewing of lips and other violence in detention centres acted as a wake up to many of us. A true asylum seeker would have been so relieved to be here that that behaviour would have been unthinkable.
The ghettoism was not acceptable when Australians saw their suburbs gradually being taken over and being made no go areas. this also happened in UK.
The rapes , the unbearable bullying by Lebanese, the street gangs, the criminals coming in as "asylum seekers" , the users and abusers of our society.
And the obvious dislike of our society by the likes of Keyser Trad, Bendrica, Hilali, Osram and the rest have not made things better,
But we are the ones accused of 'racism'. Why should we accept the unacceptable!

Spare us the feigned indignation about racism and intolerance, Mr Aziliz. All religions are secular by nature and until every God of every religion allows non believers into their particular heaven, the they are just as racist as you and me.

Your claim that 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants from backward societies are so prone to criminal behaviour because of the way that they are treated at school does not wash. The violence and intimidation by children of the Muslim faith towards teachers, especially female teachers, is now so bad in schools in the perpetually "troubled" South West of Sydney, that teachers are refusing to teach in these schools. These are not just secondary schools but even primary schools.

If Islamic people in Australia are now being the subject of threats and intimidation, there is one way to mitigate that. You must immediately and publically disassociate yourself from any person preaching violence and hatred towards Australians and western values in general. You must also condemn them unconditionally.

Recently, thousands of Muslims marched in Sydney against a French decision to ban headscarves in France. Australians consider it instructive that “Australian” Muslims can find the enthusiasm to march about an a minor social issue in another country, yet can not summon the same zeal to march against Muslim fundamentalist fanatics who have declared war on the western world in the name of your religion. One can only conclude that Muslims will never do this, because despite the bland assurances of two faced Muslim Imams and Muslim spokesmen, because they support the terrorists.

If your co religionists propagate the notion that Muslims are one thing, and everybody else on the planet are something else, then you can hardly cry if the rest of the world returns the compliment to you.

Keith

You asked if I would subject my Muslim friends and colleagues to a mini inquisition on Australian 'values' with your request:

"So my point is would you two like to do as I have done. Then draw your own conclusions."

I would no more do that than I would interrogate my Christian, agnostic, buddhist or hindu friends and colleagues - how intolerant and just plain rude! I prefer to let actions speak for themselves. I deal with people as they treat me. I certainly don't like every Muslim I meet and can certainly say the same about other people also.

Just the very fact of interrogation such as you have performed - sets you up as judge and jury and also tells your Muslim 'defendants' that they are not to be trusted. How would you like to be questioned in such a manner?

On the subject of Australian 'values' they vary from Aussie to Aussie I no more share the same values with the likes of Coach, Redneck or Boaz than I do with Fellow Human or Irfan. I may have some things in common, but for one I do not follow any formal religion, nor do I believe in such anachromisms as a 'woman's place' as Boaz believes.

What I am trying to say is that so-called Aussies (as in white-euro-anglo) vary in their beliefs, religion, politics to a wide degree - within the one culture that we refer to as Australian. Some Aussies believe in the death penalty; some don't....and so on...

So why do you think a few unsatisfactory answers from a few Muslims holds sway over all Muslims?

BTW my moniker is SCOUT - think To Kill a Mockingbird :-)

DAVID LATIMER

Thanks David.. I added the word 'all' in regard to Muslims to be detained. I was interpreting the 'tone' of Irfans post

["If the Federal Government decided to round up Muslims and have them detained in detention camps, would you support such a move?"]

You mentioned 'masses'. Ok.. apologies for not being tighter in my terms. Let me just re-state my actual point about 'declaration of war'. I tied that to the holding up of signs such as "Death to those who insult the prophet", and I stand by that linking.

They are the types who I would incarcerate. It is a clear violation of our anti terror laws, and undelines the importance of having them.

SCOUT
there is nothing wrong with asking how muslims or buddhists or anyone feels about the laws and values of this country, as long as it is done without an 'inquisitorial' attitude. You tend to go in leaps and bounds to inquisition dont ya. My bosnian Muslim friend at the gym and I had that conversation, along with things about self defence, -he shows me how to break a blokes arm with some martial art, and I show him how to duck and weave in boxing, and we talk about history and lots of things. Oh..speaking about self defense.. mate, forget the 'roundhouse'kick.. takes toooo much time. Frontal kick to the groin is MUCH quicker and more effective. aah.. my work is done :)

You realllly hate that 'womans place' thing eh :) Its about 'complementary' rather than competitive. Working as a team.
You don't need to pick me about that.. if you re-marry, just choose someone who shares your own views. Problem solved. ( *points to Robert* :)

TO ALL (posters)
again, I find myself thrilled that we are talking about these issues and others. Engaging differing points of view.

Freedom and the right to criticize is a beautiful thing.

All-The truth isn't propaganda.

"Australia is a Land of a Fair Go-not have a unfair go at it’s population and steal its foundations and values"

Moslems aren't stealing your foundations and values.

Threatening people in the fashion I described in my previous post isn't giving them a fair go.

I'm a sixth generation Australian and my islamic relative was a seventh.

The foundations and values I grew up with are eroding and it isn't moslems doing it-it's people like you.

As a teengager I lived in a society that did give people a fair go, that encouraged a multicultural approach, there was free university education, free medical and a society that was at the forefront of human rights advocacy.

There were bigots around but they didn't run the show.

I have lived to see the mentally ill tipped onto the street, then villified and put in prison when they can't conform to societies norms.

I have seen a society that was the closest to being classless start increasing the gap between the rich and the poor and I see class attitudes arising.

I have seen a society with a generous welfare system that cared about the unfortunate cut it back viciously and continuously as they villify them.

I have seen a country that had a relaxed attitude change with an ever increasing suicide rate (one peak was when they privatised much of the public service in 1992 and so many lost their jobs).

I have seen a country that once cared about people and their families, craftsmanship and quality in their work become ever more the slave of pure profit.

I remember a country that would never have tolerated and supported officially sanctioned torture and would've been outraged at any President that advocated the suspension of the Geneva Convention. That would have railed against incarceration without charges.

All-People like you have stolen my country's values away. You can do it for one reason-this country is a democracy. Whatever the majority votes for goes. Our culture is based on constant change-there are no foundations which cannot be eroded and there are no values that can't be voted out.

So you're a fool to talk about not wanting to change in a system based integrally around change. Go migrate to a country that follows an unquestionable set of laws that cannot change if you don't like it. Hang on-that sound's like Sharia. Interesting isn't it-you're behaving like a fundamentalist crazy moslem.

Redneck/All-if you read my post you would know I'm not a moslem. This happened on other posts. It doesn't matter how clear my posts are I'm not a moslem (even if I criticise Islam) if I say one word in their defence then I am a Moslem. On one thread I discussed a wide range of religions without getting any reaction but when I mentioned Islam-all of a sudden, I was a moslem, and all this hatred started spewing. Weird. Stupid.

Moslems disassociating themselves from any person preaching violence doesn't work. As long as they're moslem they'll be attacked no matter how much they disassociate themselves. I guess what you really mean is they have to stop being moslems.

There are religions that allow nonbelievers into heaven-you don't know much about religion.

Mickjo-not all moslems came here as asylum seekers who wound up in detention centres. Most migrated, or have been in Australia for generations and others are Australian converts. Saying that is just hysterical.

That's right Keith-blame the moslems after all they hit and spit on themselves. There are a lot of Moslems who respect the things you suggest they should. There are very few on this list that uphold freedom of speech and religion-why else would there be so many that think that the moslems deserve to be treated the way I spoke of in my earlier post?

It's Australians that are changing Australia into a fundamentalist and unfree place where there is no fair go.

Scott,

I reject your interpretation of my inquiries. You're suggesting the shouldn't be discussed with immigrants? Is it that you lack the guts to discover immigrants, and particularly immigrant muslims, lack of understanding of these topics?

I don't understand why you think such discussion 'inquisitorial'? I'd have thought immigrants would grasp these basic's of our society and gladly show their knowledge. Yes I was often questioned about my loyality to Australia, up until about the time I lost my accent. I was never offended. I didn't see the questioners as intolerant nor rude. After very open exchanges of views mutual respect was arrived at.

Irfan asked me a similar question. His was define multi-culturalism? I didn't think his question intolerant nor rude, nor were my sensibilities ruffled. Although it's good to have them ruffled at times. Why is it Irfan is entitled to ask such questions...without recrimination yet if I ask the same I'm accused of being rude intolerant and inquisitorial?
Please answer that question...I'd love to see a mocking bird do a double back flip ...with pike.

Your attitude precludes open exchanges and it's positive outcomes. That's narrow minded and leads to displays of arrogrance and bigotry. It is much better to approach such discussions without a 'victim sympathetic' attitude. Many people often reveal an unseen ignorance and acknowledged their position. That leads to a desire for information. That can only be good for the cohesion of our society.

Mate your approach says things should not be discussed because of assumed sensibilities. Our society left such an attitude behind yonks ago. Come on man get with it.

The issue I wrote about in my post was the underlying precepts of our multi culturalism within our liberal democracy. It is not as you have assigned to me... a discussion on Australian values. Your sermon on your view of Australian values has no relevance within that context. Stick to the topic at hand... boyo! Don't think you can label me as judge and jury on Australian values when I am writing on an entirely different matter.

So I can assume you are an Islamic Apostate as you so explain.
I will give you one consideration but argue- that Islam is not responsible for the degradation of society, it is- hand in hand with the Lobotomized cultural war warriors of the drug induced morons some 40 years ago- to which we owe our antipathy of epistemology of today. Yes, Civilizations are living on borrowed time, as the ideals have be trashed and destroyed by such Moronic warriors.
Australia is not alone:
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/76/

And the other Pantheistic notion of Orwellian Human understanding and worship of Misery will lead western Societies into a more Middle Eastern and African life style out look.
You need to understand the reality and not the Automaton program you have been brainwashed with by those Cultural warriors:

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/22/

It is not a joke, so start waking up. I will leave it at that or Graham might Delete me.

Aziliz,

You state that “Moslems disassociating themselves from any person preaching violence doesn't work”.

I If a sizable chunk (say half the number that protest headscarves or the Iraq war) of the Australian muslim population where prepared to march or sign petitions in favor of Australian law and against terrorism it would make a huge difference. Saying it doesn’t work without it happening is a copout. Non-Muslim Australia has turned out in their droves for anti-war marches (admittedly dominated by the Socialist parties but at least thousands of well meaning non-aligned people were there).

There are probably many Australian muslims who moved here to escape sharia law (I know Persians who have) and who abhor terrorism. Problem is their leadership is religious and has a stake in propagating Islamic systems and in some cases pushes outright terrorism. If most Muslims in Australia are for Australia, Australian law and terrorism, there is something inherently wrong with their leadership structure as this does not in any way get across. The leaders all want to implement Sharia law – look at the statement from Victoria’s Islamic council yesterday – they want sharia law but want it by democratic meansThe sad bit is that they are so out of touch with reality that they feel this statement is going to make people happy.

It is a pretty simple formula – if there is a section of the community that wants to change the system in a way that does not suit the rest of the population – this population must never be allowed to gain a critical mass where it can successfully agitate for these changes.

It seems that Muslims are muslim first and Australians later while the reverse is opposite for most non-muslims. Until I see some evidence to the contrary I will never feel comfortable with Islam in Australia

Keith

In a debate situation such as OLO I completely concur that it is not ‘inquisitorial’ to ask such questions as you and Irfan have put forth. However, I query your approach out in the real world. I do ask my Muslim friends questions about their faith – but not in an adversarial manner, which is how I interpreted your post.

If you approached the subjects of your straw poll with respect and friendship then I do not take issue, but, mate, it still doesn’t prove anything.

I approach people in a very open and honest manner – this way I receive honest and open responses – asking a stranger how they interpret multiculturalism in Australia just doesn’t sound very friendly to me.

I discussed the diversity of beliefs within Australian culture to exemplify the fact that you cannot paint an entire culture with the same brush – it is entirely in context and very revealing about you that you cannot see this.

Therefore, a straw poll such as the one you conducted proves nothing.

I put my faith in human nature. That is the majority of us want to live in peace and get along with each other. It is the aberrant minority who screw it up for the rest of us.

I work with and socialise with Muslims – have done so for well over 15 years now. And guess what I have discovered?

They’re human!
Regards
Dianne

PS Another reason I suspect that you are adversarial in your approach is that you cannot even respond to me using my correct moniker - Scout.

If I could take this opportunity to repeat the main points of the article.

1. The Oz editors have distorted the words of the PM to suit some strange monoculturalist agenda that it seems they are trying to promote. Then again, the Fairfax press do the same to support their view that Mr Howard is a racist.

2. Mr Howard made some mistakes in relation to migrant settlement history. Apart from that, his comments were quite reasonable.

3. My problem is not so much with the Howard's essential message as with the spin that media outlets put on it.

To Keith.

The reason why Scout will not ask any hard questions to her Muslim mates id because she is frightened of what their answers would be.

Scout has probably had sex before marriage,and that makes her an "adulterer" to Muslims who must be stoned to death. If Scout was to admit to her Myuslim friends that she has had a roll in the hay before marriage, and ask them is she shouldbe stoned to death for it, she does not want to her her friends say "yes,"

The image of poor old Scout buried up to her neck in the mud while her lovely Muslim friends chuck rocks at her head is something that makes poor old Scout wince. Better to leave queastions unasked than to be told what you do not want to hear. it is so much easier believing in an "All you need is love" philosophy" if you avert your eyes from that which you prefer not to see.

Scout,

My error with your non-de-plume was genuine. I’m losing my sight. I apologise.

Adversarial? Me? Never! I’m simply interested in controversial matters.

You misinterpret what I write and you attribute me with attitudes I haven’t expressed.

I don’t bother questioning people about their faith. I do enquire about ways of life. I’m inquisitive of such things. I’ve never met anyone who has found my interest intrusive or rude, except for now.
.
I give people due respect and am sensitive.

I’ve never undertaken a straw poll. I have however noticed many immigrants ignorant (in the sense of simply not knowing) of the official statements with regard to Australian multiculturalism. I’ve also found few Australians aware of the official position. Few people I know express their concerns with multiculturalism in any manner other than in such terms as ‘Australian values’, ‘if you live in Australia you should live like Australians’ etc, etc. Our official multicultural policy states explicitly what is expected of immigrants…and of all other Australians. It tends to support the adherents of the above expressed views.

I’ve never painted Australian culture in one broad brush. That you think I have says your comprehension of my unstated position is assumed and unsound.

I find all people strangers until we converse. It isn’t difficult to get people talking about themselves. You’ve assumed I’d just walk up to someone and blurt out ‘What’s your position on Australian Multiculturalism’. In my real world such behaviour would make me a lunatic. For you to think I would…well that makes you judge and jury…and… well you can go figure.

I’ve found most humans human.

I agree minorities screw things up for the majorities. But also many things get screwed up by widespread community ignorance. eg. The White Australia Policy of 1901…the disenfranchisement of Indigenous people in 1902…the continuing inequality of women, …

I answered and returned Irfan's question about multiculturalism. It’s only fair he answer mine or at least give some kind of response…don’t you agree?

Aziliz. What is it exactly that I am blaming on Muslims?

Redneck. That's a crock of shot.

redneck,

A good observation how muslims in Australia do not denounce their “bad apples” – The “quiet majority” is living in fear, shame and disgust from their religion but prefer to cling to life than to express what they feel and be persecuted by their own.

Scout,

Ms Balance – Instead of cheering all teams, give yourself permission to get down from the spectators stand into the main arena, choose a colour, and get into the real game of life.

Azilis,

You’re whingeing about how YOUR country is disintegrating fast – ask your Moslem relatives what it will really be like when Islam takes over governance here.
You might sober up a little and start counting your blessings. (if you are fair dinkum oz)

jimmyj,

I like your style. You’re spot on re:”The leaders all want to implement Sharia law – look at the statement from Victoria’s Islamic council yesterday - they want sharia law but want it by democratic means. The sad bit is that they are so out of touch with reality that they feel this statement is going to make people happy.”

I’ve just witnessed a three-night “theological” public debate between a Muslim and a Christian in Sydney – the muslim guy distorted biblical verses, insulted some politicians, vilified Jesus, mocked the bible, offensively degraded non-muslim Australians, and did not miss a chance to sell the sugar quoted islam (when he was running out of argument) Incredibly…out of touch. Needless to say he was no match against the evidential power of the gospel.

Muslims truly believe that they have the answer to all our problems!

And the tragedy is that the “Scouts” of Australia are converting to this barbarian, barbarous, boorish, brutal, coarse, cruel, fierce, graceless, inhuman, lowbrow, primitive, rough, rude, tasteless, uncivilized, uncouth, vulgar, wild (sorry could not settle on one synonym) cult they call religion.

An excellent article. Well done Irfan.

'The Australian' is not my choice of a rag. It's target demographic appear to be intolerant, right-wingers.

The recent post by redneck is sick and entirely offensive. It is heartless, violent and threatening towards Scout. This is far worse than mere name-calling. One of the worse posts I have ever read.

This is a disgusting attempt at causing injury to a contributor. This is clearly the sole purpose. There is no argument, no point to such an image. Its reckless design puts an honest contributor directly into a horrific fantasy of the author's invention. This post is not about islam, but about attacking Scout.

The post also offends by pre-supposing the personal, private life of a contributor in a way which is contemptible. It also pre-supposes the motivations and beliefs of her friends, in a false and unjustified manner. This makes the post defamatory also.

The post breaks the rules of the forum in that it is likely to cause distress and inhibits the enjoyment of the site by users.

To Mr David Latimer.

If it is “heartless and offensive” to deconstruct the illogical attitudes of those people who are unable to comprehend the very real danger which Muslims pose to Australian society, then that is just too bad.

My opposition to Muslim immigration can be summed up easily. Muslims, even the so called “moderate Muslims”, believe that Sharia Law is the law of their God. That even so called “moderate Muslims” support this law was demonstrated last year when Amina Lawal was sentenced to be stoned to death in Nigeria. There was no outcry from the so called “moderate Muslims” in this country that this execution was an affront to Islam. Nor any outcry that stoning people to death for ‘adultery” was cruel, barbaric or unjust. As a matter of fact, the newspaper “Letters to the Editor” sections of The Sydney “Daily Telegraph” and “The Australian” newspaper were full of letter from Muslims supporting the execution. One columnist in “The Australian” newspaper presented one letter from a 16 year old Muslim schoolgirl who had been born in Australia and who also supported the stoning to death of Ms Lawal. The columnist presented this girls opinion as an example of the very real social and cultural divide that exits between Australians and Muslims.

Now, I am a person who has had sex outside of marriage. You are a politician, perhaps you could explain to me why I should be tolerant towards people who wish to stone me to death? Don’t dodge the question, show a bit of backbone and display to everybody how you can mix it with us disgusting “racists” who you think are all idiots.

If you don’t have the guts to cross swords with me, then I would presume that you are just another politician who lives in a marginal electorate who does not want to upset his Muslim constituency. What is good for your own people is secondary to your own self interest.

I do not live in Victoria, so the Inquisitors and Commissars of the Racial Vilification Act can not shut me up.

I am proudly Assuie proudly a strong male of middle age.
And not uncomfortable with my education being mostly self taught as like many country youth of my time school had to be second for the eldest to earning a liveing.
No racist, no redneck, I am however convinced some should never have come to my country.
ALP to the very end I agree with Howard and Costello on SOME Muslims.
Zero votes can be won for the ALP in not agreeing, however massive numbers can be lost in oposeing that view.
However personal insults to other posters show a failure in education far greater than my dislectic eforts and poor spelling, for some ego is indeed a dirty word.
Respect all views thats why Australians are different than some who opose us.

Part I

Irfan still hasn't answered a couple of posters queries about where he stands on Islamic, or Sharia, Law.

I wonder how Muslims reconcile their obvious support for a moral code they believe to be divinely inspired - with the undefeatable logic of western developed principles of human rights.

I won't hold my breath waiting for a response.

Irfan posted a question before about people's feelings towards the hypothetical situation of Muslims being rounded up, even killed. Such a tactic is designed to keep Australians believing the dogma shoved down our throats that Muslims are victims.

It makes me feel good knowing that the vast majority of Australians, thanks to curiosity & the internet, have learnt much about Islam themselves instead of swallowing the crap leftists dish out.

I was amazed though to see on ABC's Insiders Program, leftist extremist journalist David Marr commenting that Sharia is barbaric and that no one would want to live under it.

I wonder if he knows he offended a billion people with that "racist", and "islamophobi" response?

I encourage the defensive Irfan to read the other Muslim article here, by a Somalian I believe, who apart from being self-critical beyond what I've ever seen from any Muslim worldwide, doesn't really sound Muslim at all.

His insight into Hamas, and how without the west, Palestine would dissolve - since it is ONLY the west who gives aid.

On that note, is anybody else sick of hearing Muslims cry that the issue of Palestine is what drives their anger?

I recently saw a revealing documentary on the ABC of all places, which showed the appalling treatment Palestinians suffer at the hands of the Lebanese who took them in.....

Part II

.....they aren't allowed to leave the refugee camp, even though they have been there for 55 years! They can't work outside the camp, they can't buy land with their money (incidentally, the only reason any of them have anything to do is from aid from the west. Lebanon refused to pay for their education and other services) or anything one would think a Muslim would offer his "brothers of Palestine".

It's the same in Jordan & Syrian refugee camps. So don't let any Muslim EVER tell you that they care about Palestine, as there are no movements to help these people, apart from westerners that is.

Sixty Minutes showed some good stuff about the medieval practices of Egyptian abbatoirs, although that didn't surprise me. What did though is that the ANIMAL RIGHTS groups are finally going after the worst offenders, which just so happen to be the Islamic nations.

Could someone explain to me about "halal"? I have heard that in order to be halal, the animal must be tied up by it's hind legs, have it's throat slit while concious, and bled to death, to fulfill the ritual. Is this true?

I wonder though how the many leftists who write here weigh this up, they believe in cultural relativism, that ALL CULTURES are equal, so how do they attack these cultural practices?

It's the leftists that think Muslims are beneath us, not capable of reason, and look down at them, they are your enemy Irfan, not the right.

Once again, I ask Irfan to tell us whether he supports Sharia. I think that as a public figure who writes articles, we have a right to know whether you believe in the same principles to that of NAZI Germany, with totalitarianism, witholding the rights of others, etc.

Yet, it's Irfan that believes HE is the victim, insanity.

I had a letter in the Daily Telegraph today, in the To The Point Section. Anybody agree with my point?

David

I fully support your attitude and comments in regartd to Redneck and Scout.

I found Scout's contributions, even though I disagree with her, representative, accurate, decent and lively.

She shows great spirit.

Keith

Benjamin

Irfan has a reasonable explanation of his position on sharia law on the thread by Bashir.

He explains the extent and jurisdicition of sharia law in quite simple terms. Even I can understand his explanation. I accept his position as reasonable and accatable.

Yoo Hooooo, David Latimer.

C'mon mate. I didn't pick a fight with you. You tossed the gauntlet in my face. Here I am, waiting in the arena for your reply, sword in hand. And the whole world is watching. You can't keep hiding out there in cyberspace forever hoping that I will go away.

Although I can inderstand your dilemma. It is easy to act the role of the Paragon of Virtue if you put on your ideological blinkers and pretend that no minority group can be considered a threat. But along comes a redneck who poses a simple, direct question and you are stumped first ball.

Politicians like you have been kissing minority ass for so long that you forgot that the government of Australia was there to represent the interests of the Australian people. Not the Lebanese people or the Sudanese people or the Iraqi people.

The state of NSW has built one university in the last ten years, but it has built four prisons and reopened the ancient Parramatta jail because supply for prison accomadation can no longer keep pace with demand. With 50% of the inmates in French jails Muslims, then you hardly need a certificate from Mensa to figure out the ghastly social implications if we keep importing immigrants from this particular trouble prone religious group.

Keith

I appreciate the clarification you made with your post from Sunday, 26 February 2006 6:22:43 PM.

I took issue because you stated previously "On many occassions I have asked individual Muslims of their acceptance of these notions" - without any detail of your approach. It sounded, to me, very heavy handed. Instead you were genuinely seeking information and knowledge. I am always in favour of learning.

I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to get to know a number of Muslim people very well indeed. Have attended a couple of weddings - as well as informal home meals. Plenty of room for relaxed conversation about absolutely anything. I hope you can develop similar relationships.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of Redneck - I thought Coach was a sad case, but Redneck has managed to shatter any credibility he may have had. I will always read his future posts with his scathing attack on me in mind.

Redneck - your anger will destroy you. At the very least check your blood pressure. I also suggest meditation. The link below is Victorian but it lists Meditation centres in other states. It is Buddhist - so you needn't be scared.

http://www.aloka.dhamma.org/

Finally a big thank-you to Keith and David Latimer. I appreciate your thoughts - however I do not have a problem with Redneck's rant - he revealed a lot that is sad about himself. I have no intention of requesting that his comments be deleted.

Best we all know what Redneck is truly like. As they say 'the truth is out there'.

Regards

Dianne

Scout - Please explain your statement:

"It is Buddhist - so you needn't be scared."

Did you mean:

1. That's not Muslim so therefore it's harmless?

2. Redneck is only concerned with and offended by muslims?

3. Buddhism could be a better alternative to main stream religions for our culture in Australia.

4. You only meant it as a joke or attack on redneck's alleged islamophobia?

5. You don't have a clue but thought it was funy when you wrote it.

______________

Benjamin,

I too was horrified by the 60 minutes animal cruelty in Egypt - that only goes to show the difference in cultural values of most people of that religion. This was only one example, and it is not limited to Egypt of course.

As for "halal" killing of animals, I'm not sure how it is in Australia but in islamic countries I have personaly witnessed street slaughtering of sheep; one after another have their throat slit enough to get the blood drained out completely (no traces of blood is to be consumed by muslims). Death is slow, painful, the animals convulse and moan in agony for many minutes - to the delight of the keen audience - including the children of course.

Chickens, rabbits, pigeons etc...at the local butchers - suffer the same ordeal daily.

I have seen butchers rush out of their shop with knife in hand - get into a bloody fight, cut a few people, then return calmly inside, wipe the knife and resume their work, serving clients, as if nothing happened.

Another time I witnessed some male muslim youths back from a day at the beach. One of them produced the stump of the umbrella he was carrying and knocked a barking dog on the head killing him instantly, while the group cheered and laughed themselves silly.

Different values... different cultures... one melting pot?

Benjamin,

For what its worth many Muslims who watched the 60 minutes were shocked at what they saw.

Growing up in the very same country, Egyptians are not shown these things. What we saw was barbaric animal cruelty. The irony is, animal cruelty means its non halal and most of us concluded that its easier to trust the Australian slaughter Halal than the Muslim ones.

What we saw was sickening,

Benjamin

In my adulthood, I have had time to reflect on the behaviours and attitudes concerning animals that I have witnessed during my times of living in farming communities.

I have witnessed a sheep being slaughtered by having its neck slashed, a common practice on farms when they need meat. When they are going to slaughter a 'killer', unfortunately the event becomes family entertainment, and the children gather around to watch.

I also witnessed a brumby slaughtered because the grazier needed dingo bait. The brumby was cut into small portions and the portions put in a cement mixer with poison. The poisoned meat was then distributed throughout a large paddock of the property. They regreted that every animal (birds etc ...) would also be poisoned, but their aim was to decrease the dingo population.

I am aware of the common practice of farmers putting an unwanted litter of kittens or puppies into a sack and drowning them.

Approximately 15 years ago, for recreation, townies would go pig and roo shooting, and moralise their choice of recreation by claiming they were doing the farmers a favour.

My point is, barbaric behaviour towards animals happens in Australia too, and carried out by Australians.

I believe cruelty towards animals does not necessarily make that person or society 'barbaric', it just means they are less educated and more dependent on subsistance farming as a source of income. And it is unrelated to religion. As Fellow_Human states, he was shocked at what he witnessed occuring in his own country.

Well, I will say one thing for you Scout, you have more intestinal fortitude than David Latimer. Of course, your English comprehension could do with a bit of a brush up if you think I am angry.

Getting angry and out of control has never been the cultural practice of the British descended people. But it does appear to be a passion popular with people from the Middle East who are noted for their belligerent behaviour. And that from a region of the world where such behaviour is rarely even remarked upon. British descended people don’t get mad, they get thinking. Remember proudly your British culture. “If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs….”

I see that you are still saying that you can have polite conversations with Muslims. Provided, of course, that you are not impolite enough to ask any hard questions.

As for the poor old wimpish Buddhists, their peaceful ways availed them nothing when the Taliban blew up the 2,000 year old Babiyan Buddhas. Funny how just about every Muslim in the world went beserk over the Danish cartoons, but when their own adherents blow up an ancient revered treasure, all we got from the Muslim world was a deafening silence. Perhaps you could bring this subject up with your Muslim friends? Or is this subject “impolite” too?

Onya Coach.

So she wrote: ".... you are adversarial... that you cannot even respond to me using my correct moniker - Scout."

What interesting mentality, sigh...

Notice how she sucks up to those whom she agrees with?

Worst, advising newbies like st_alk to "Please ignore Coach..." as if others don't have a mind of their own.

It's a well known fact Muslim girls maintain their 'modesty'. Hence some Muslim men have no choice but to look outside for 'cheap' girls. After some socialising, these men actually become quite good at manipulating their girls.

Sure, redneck was mean in his post about her. But honestly I've been wondering if she is not her Muslim boss's favourite pet.

Surely that would explain something...

Redneck, Coach and GZ Tan

Sad and sorry creatures all. Because you wish to paint all Muslims with the same brush the best you can do is cast aspersions on my morality?

Sounds like you all could do with some relaxation exercises and not a little self-reflection.

BTW GZ Tan - obviously you have been catching up on past posts in which case you would know that Keith and I sorted out our communication problems, so why are you trying to make an issue of it now? Just desperation I guess.

Well the most you have achieved is prove the point of Irfan's article and condoning the picture of Islam as a monolithic, homogenous culture.

I guess Douglas Adams summed up the contrary nature of human beings thusly;

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

Cheers m'dears

Scout,

It is not 'some relaxation exercises', that GZ Tan and Redneck need.

Self-reflection is an exclusive domain. :-)

All-wrong again. I can't be a Moslem apostate because I was never a Moslem. Either you don't know the meaning of apostate or you still haven't read my posts.

Read your links and so you're not just anti Moslem, but also anti communist/marxist, conservationist, pagan (anything not christian?), black, feminist, immigrant/foreigner and the article on money may be responding to my reference to slavery to profit-which means you want women working as well as being antifeminist.

But the real gem: "with repressive religions that apparently foster the belief that the ancient property of one race of people can be taken over by other races"-that's nearly every race on the planet earth-who's in their ancient ancestral home? All hates everyone-including him/herself.

jimmyj some links about what moslems are doing to stand up to terrorism:

http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/

http://www.freemuslims.org/

Going to a total stranger and spitting, hitting, threatening with rape, threatening her children, etc. solely because she wears a head scarf is terrorism-by australians.

Keith-you commented on my post on the abuse of moslems in Australia and then said moslem ignorance was the problem and I thought that was poor taste.

Violent, aggressive, blindly bigoted, one-eyed ignorance is the enemy. Whether its Islamic, Christian or other. Whatever I say about inappropriate behaviour from the west the answer is-but look at what the moslems do-"Gee they're allowed to be barbaric-I want to be too". The west does it with the upper hand, politically, militaristically and economically.

I cannot see why dropping bombs from an aeroplane and using depleted uranium shells is considered less barbaric. It still kills people and in ways that can be slow and torturous, it still leaves people disabled for life.

I cannot understand why the west thinks it is okay for them to torture other people simply because they claim the person is 'bad', when they don't lay charges or give a fair trial.

Because you don't see it happening here in Australia, you're like mafia wives turning a blind eye to their husbands business-as long as you're kept in wealth and privilege you don't care how.

The French and British, as the Turkish Ottoman Empire was crumbling, waded in pretending to be liberators and then carved up the Middle East for their own commercial interests.

Lawrence_of_Arabia (who stirred up the Arabs to support the West in the war against the Turks) refused to accept the medals his country awarded him because he was so upset when he realised what the British intended.

Syria became France's-they bombed Damascus 1925&1926 when the Syrians complained. Iraq became Britain's possession-they bombed Bagdad and other parts of Iraq when it rebelled.

Who was the first to gas the Kurds? Winston Churchill. The Kurds were bombed relentlessly because they fought for autonomy. When the British and French divided up the Middle East they gave no homeland to the Kurds but left their traditional lands partly in Turkey, in Iraq and in Iran because the Kurds defied them.

The Iraqis fought for over a decade but it was the second World War and the financial depletion Britain suffered because of it that got the British out. Then the British invited the US to take over their interests.

The British gave Saudi Arabia to one family the Sauds-who have been in the Wests pocket ever since. Saudi Arabia is the **only** country in the Middle East that practices pure Sharia Law, they're an extremely repressive dictatorship and best friends with the US. Osama BinLadin and most of the people who were involved in the WTC incident were Saudis-not Iraqis. So why didn't the US focus on that country as the problem?

Although the British originally fought against the Jews in Israel, the US realised a non-arab country in the area was a military strategic advantage.

The British/US manipulation of the Middle East for their economic advantage continues to the present day.

Did you see Dateline's new Abu Graib torture pictures? There are pictures of prisoners with pieces of their flesh gouged out, covered with wounds, many more dead bodies, etc.

You think you can treat other people like that and they won't retaliate? You're crazy. The loons from both sides will ruin the world.

Scout,

For a person with your 'intellect', who self-appoints as being a voice of the oppressed Muslims, constantly touting a sense of "balance", pretending to be an open-minded keen learner, middle-of-road and fair minded but yet so obviously biased and pretentious, I say you've got to be one heck of a hypocrite and the most outspoken one by ratio, judging by the number of your posts.

Redneck was incorrect when he said you do not ask your Muslim mates any hard questions because you're frightened of what their answers would be. (But then he was only saying it.)

The truth is your brain hasn't got what it takes when it comes to thinking and reasoning... and you're sold out to your Muslim mates.

Knowing the background of a person reveals heap why and how someone says something.

Yours is a TOTAL lack of credibility as far as I'm concerned.

That said, I'd prefer not to waste my time with you.

Response to Aziliz,

I was very impressed by the manifesto listed on www.freemuslims.org:

"Taking our religion back one Muslim at a time

We believe in the re-interpretation of Islam for the 21st century where terrorism is not justified under any circumstances.
We believe in the separation of religion and state.
We believe that democracy is the best form of government.
We believe in the promotion of in all forms of political activity.
We believe that equality for women is an inalienable right.
We believe that religion is a personal relationship between the individual and his or her God and is not to be forced on anyone."

Could somebody please point out where Australian Islamic leadership have subscribed to a similar manifesto?

Anyone who wants to change our laws in any way to suit their religion does not believe in the separation of church and state at all. The Islamic leadership in Australia makes it plain that it seeks to implement Sharia law - whether Sufism-coated or otherwise. A couple of US websites does not represent any groundswell of popular opinion. If you subscribe to this manifesto you would be marching against terrorism and for secularism instead of against cartoons and for headscarves.

To Scout

Once again you feel compelled to tell me that I must not judge an entire group of people. But you have not thought that one through. I find that may well intentioned people who espous noble causes like "anti racism" are simply parrotting slogans that they have never thought about.

It is easy to prejudge an entire group of people because a person can not be considered a valued member of a group unless he or she conforms to the social norms of that group. Almost every group of people makes no secret of what values and attitudes it expects it's members to exhibit if they wish to remain members of that group.

Judging an entire group of people by their known values, attitudes and behaviour is therefore logical. You would not invite the Hells Angels motorcycle club to you daughters 16th birthday party and I don't want Muslims to take over my country through immigration or birthrate differentials.

Muslims believe in Sharia Law and their basic philosophies are directed towards collectivism, religious committment and and very well defined gender roles. Western people consider Sharia Law as barbaric, while we our philosophies direct us towards individualism, secularism and near gender equality.

Your attitude might be likened to a Jew in Germany in 1933, who has heard that Nazi's hate Jews, but does not wish to ask their Nazi friends about that because it might be "impolite."

"Keith-you commented on my post on the abuse of moslems in Australia and then said moslem ignorance was the problem and I thought that was poor taste."

You claimed the above.

Here's what I've said.

'However the problem is not of bigotry but more ignorance... Underlying our not so 'mushy' multuiculturalism are precepts concerning commitment to the Constitution, parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech and religion, english as the national language, the rule of law, acceptance and equality.

On many occassions I have asked individual Muslims of their acceptance of these notions. Indeed in fairness I have followed Irfan's lead and now often ask for a definition of Australian Multi-culturalism.

Many avoid the question, others answer in an oblique way that says little but a great deal by inference, and many are totally unaware of these things.'

And

'I have however noticed many immigrants ignorant (in the sense of simply not knowing) of the official statements with regard to Australian multiculturalism. I’ve also found few Australians aware of the official position. '

If you're offended by those comments then you obviously failled comprehension in primary school or are carrying access on one of your shoulders.

You've got a dyspeptic view of Scout. Go ahead check the dictionary...check 'ignorance' while you are about it.

Dear Aziliz...

I'm not sure what you are on about ? You listed a whole truckload of 'Sins of International Relations' where the players mentioned were Western. But change the dates, and places, and substitute Arab names etc..and you have the same thing.

In fact.. all you did was illustrate the very fallen condition of mankind. I heard that King Leopold of Belgium regarded the Congo as his personal plaything, and who cares about a few million blacks who needed to be dealt with in order to keep it that way....

Are you saying "The West is bad" ? of course it is.. nationstates are no different to Individuals.. they fight over toys and resources.

But woffling on as you did, suggests you think this 'ailment' is limited to the West and that Arabs are simply the poor innocent hapless victims. Why did you not also list the sins of the Moghuls ? The atrocities in India ? etc etc.. the attemped rape and pillage of France with conquered Spain as the launching pad ?

The answer to this problem is not in simply listing all those sins, it is in turning to the Sinless forgiver of sin and the renewer of hearts and minds.. Jesus, Messiah, KING of kings and LORD of Lords, at who's feet one day all humankind will bow the knee..willingly or otherwise.

Azilis, are you forgiven ? do you know new life in Christ ? Is Jesus not only the Good Shepherd, but YOUR Shepherd ? He is 'The'Way, but is he 'your' way ? Is he 'your' light ? I address this to all of us.

Wow, Poor Redneck cops it, All- is coping it: Do you Aziliz and some others understand a word in the Lexicon “Jocularity.”
If you were a real Australian you would understand exactly what that means.
Aziliz, I do not know what point you are making, but you obviously can read, but can not comprehend a subject that conflicts with your programmed Ideology.
On that note I wish you good luck, gauging by your responses, you need it- as your teachers have abandoned you in your hour of need. My wife in fact does not work, I do. It is my skills and knowledge that maintains My Buisiness to earn a HONEST living and trade with those that also have honor and seek value, Honesty and integrity and ethical, those measures escape you, you espouse to the parasite living, and when the host is drained, it dies, and so do you.
Baurocrats who comment on this site, Remember that. It is someone else’s Blood you live off and obviously not your own intelligence, you would not survive in the real word, so you make a world up that you feel more comfortable in, with no care who you destroy.

Scout, strayan as well as AMSADL have made shallow personal attacks on comments I made – which I have put down to opening their collective mouths before putting their brains into gear, which is a pity really because some of their later post actually have some merit, however once bitten, it is hard to befriend the biter.

Scout, As I said, I respect OUR women collectively, however I make exceptions, but you would fail abysmally to comprehend, as your stagnant brain has been left far in the wake of your ever evolving motor-mouth, with baring fangs snapping at all and sundry, for little reason other than they hold differing views to your narrow mindset. Also, as your attention span appears to be somewhat limited, would it be too much to ask not to stray too far from the discussion topic?

But aside from that, if you troubled your little mind, you will see from other posts that I have been an expatriate for some 30 odd years and in every country I did not impose my Australian ways where I went – I mixed in with the local population, I talked with and learned their language and I socialized with them. I know it would be far beyond your ken – but why would I make a pariah of myself, by being arrogant, obnoxious and ignorant of local custom, and laws

Where I originated from is not the point – I am a citizen of the world who has made Australia my home and whilst I may listen to your argument, I do not have to agree – and the more you try and shove your pointless opinions down my throat the more of an arrogant bastard you become – and you lose your argument.

Having said that, one of my best friends is – or should I say was, a Muslim, but he has seen the light and that whatever good in Islam has been far outweighed by the evil bastards – as in the Catholics, holy rollers and fundamentalist and Zionist cretins running the American expansionism into everywhere.

As I said previously Ifran has two major points against him – first being a lawyer, the second his Islamic attitude against Australian’s dislike for the Lebanese Muslims sectarian warfare against the Australian Christian majority.

Again as I said quite early in this discussion, Lebanese Muslims WILL not integrate with the current Australian society because they are Muslims, because they wish to impose their laws and customs on the host nation.

As much as I despise Costello, I agree with him 100% when he said “people coming to Australia should have the same respect for Australian values as visitors to a mosque who are asked to take off their shoes.” I add – “If you do not like our laws and custom – then you are free to leave and go to a Muslim country with laws and customs that suits you” I make no demands that you abandon your customary way – except for those that clash with this country’s laws and parliament.

I also really abhor the detention of children. But they are being used as pawns by so called “asylum seekers”, who are Muslim and they are not following the usual scope for asylum – and that is to seek asylum in the FIRST country they come to – Why indeed not stop in Malaysia, or Indonesia both Muslim countries, well known for their care and benevolence for fellow Muslims in need…? Perhaps that is where Aziliz’s relative relocated to enjoy the benefits of Islam?

However do not think I pick only the faults in Islam, the Catholic Church had it own series of Inquisitions, the conniving Jews of the old testament were no better than the Kazar “Jews” of today – Religion is a battle for the control of minds.

And yes my poster of pathos, I also have enjoyed a good meal of rice, fish, meat, chicken and local delicacies such as dog, cat, snake, the odd tree grub, some rather delicious crocodile as well as some others that I am not quite sure of – so tell me AMSADL, what is your favourite repast?

Aziliz,

No one needs to go back and reads your old posts because you are repeating yourself in any case, copying and pasting the same old rants. Read one and you read them all.

There is NO point in producing a never ending list of atrocities if you can't even tell why things are the ways they are.

So stop your ranting for a moment. Here's something to consider:

First would you agree with me that everyone is quite unique in one's own way? It's like this unique set of 'genetic codes' in us which influences how we think and do things differently.

Now a simple question for you - Is there a set of 'genetic codes' somewhere, the underlying factor of a steering force which caused the French and British to do what they did, one that seduced Winston Churchill into 'gasing' the Kurds, caused British/US to manipulate the Middle East and to torture Iraqis in Abu Graib.. etc...etc...?

If so, what is it and where is it

Mr Aliliz's posts are typical of the Muslim persecution complex which lists aggression against the Muslim world by those dastardly Christians. Muslims are still raving on about the Crusades which most Muslims think happened just last week.

I am certain that Muslim school books have never told you this before, Mr Azilitz, but all of North Africa was Christian before Muslim invaders conquered them with the sword. Muslim armies got all the way to France before the French king "Charles the Hammer" stopped them. In the West, Muslim armies made it to the gates of Vienna twice.

If you are so concerned about warlike behaviour and anybody conquering other people, then when is the Muslim world going to give Constantinople back to Christianity? If you will not support the notion that Muslims have stolen Constantinople and must give it back, then spare us the feigned moral outrage.

Your only beef if that we are winning. The reason why we are winning is because Islam can not cope with the modern world and we are powering ahead of you.

GZ Tan - you'll not bother with me again. I'm sooo upset, I'll just take my bat and ball and go home.

Redneck

Majority of Muslims want to move into 21st century and not in favour of Sharia law. But how would you know? You only assocociate with people the same as you.

Not an apologist for anyone - just loath bullies.

Kekenidika

You are painting an entire community with the same brush with statements like "Lebanese Muslims WILL not integrate with the current Australian society because they are Muslims". Do you write for the Australian?

Aziliz

You go girl.

And to all - a good day!

jimmyj-Some Australian sites:

http://www.icv.org.au/latest.shtml

http://www.icv.org.au/news.shtml

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/20/1095651245879.html?from=storylhs

http://www.afic.com.au/Open%20letter%20to%20Muslim%20leaders%2027%20Jul%2005.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/muslim-summit-repudiates-terrorism/2005
/08/23/1124562829836.html

http://www.afic.com.au/Amn.htm

not quite manifestos.

To balance, some Christians who speak out against the maltreatment of
Moslems:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ctmag/special/prisonabuse.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week921/exclusive.html

http://www.nrcat.org/

http://gbgm-umc.org/global_news/pr.cfm?articleid=3223

http://www.cfba.info/analyst/york_daily_record.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4259062.stm

I searched hard for Christian links and I’m not satisfied-where are the main churches on torture? Moslems constantly cry out against Islamic terrorism against Christians/the_west but other way round-not much. Nice to see someone on this thread show some curiosity.

Anyone who wants to change our_laws to suit their religion? Laws are laws-whether they’re religious or otherwise. Each law needs to be taken on its own merit and needs to be reviewed over time and changes of circumstances-hence the problem with religious unchanging laws.

There are some who claim Australian law is based on Christian values-so should it be thrown out for that reason? I wouldn't advocate tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Most religions have some good laws.

Keith you quoted the wrong bit :)

"You have described some despicible behaviours.
However the problem is not of bigotry but more ignorance.." At first I thought you meant the ignorance of non-Moslem Australians but to my surprise you go on to describe Moslem ignorance! Lesson in English comprehension-if you say "However" it means you are qualifying your last remark. It reads that’s why Moslems get abused on the street. If it’s not what you meant but just a mistake in how you phrased yourself then simply say so.

Boaz_David, "Violent, aggressive, blindly bigoted, one-eyed ignorance is the enemy. Whether it’s Islamic, Christian or other." That’s a quote from my post. Does this mean you’re converted BD? It’s good you’re being more balanced and see there are problems on both sides. This is what I am trying to achieve here. Nice you agree with me for a change.:)

**Sigh** but you’re off on your bending knees by force and insistence you’re a sheep-oh dear BD I’m afraid you’re a lost cause after all.

Redneck, I just said Sharia wasn’t strictly followed in any Middle Eastern country other than Saudi Arabia-that means most Moslems don't want to follow it exactly

How many Bible laws aren’t followed by Christians? Most Christians would be horrified at the thought. If you wish to argue against Sharia or passages in the Koran that’s fine-I have no problems with that, I’ll join you. But not all Moslems follow Sharia or every line in the Koran just like Christians don't ascribe to every line of the Bible and interpret it differently.

Redneck-the answer is already in a previous comment of mine: "Whatever I say about inappropriate behaviour from the west the answer is-but look at what the Moslems do-"Gee they're allowed to be barbaric-I want to be too". I’m also talking about the last hundred years in setting the conditions for what’s happening today-Bush isn’t trying to win back Constantinople:)

All-hah, another back down. You don't believe in being a slave to profit or you would insist your wife went to work-so your post on money was a waste of time. I'm doing amazingly well here considering what I have to work with.

I don't understand you? I understand you very well;) Barring me saying you don't believe in women in the home, I got it right didn't I? (and that was dripping with jocularity-I knew you couldn't be both antifeminist and want women in the workforce).

Poor All, you sound like you’re not coping. Like looking after a wife and maybe kids is overwhelming you-so scared of 'parasites' who are sucking you dry. But is your wife a paraplegic? Does one of your children have a severe heart condition? Perhaps a teenager with severe schizophrenia? Have you had a stroke leaving you partially paralysed down one side and still carry on? Now, that would be hard.

GZTan-If you’re interested in genetic codes, why not research it then let us know. It would be nice to get something intellectual on this thread instead of the banal "if I insult you more that means I win" without any factual information.

Bye Scout. Many here know if they use abusive tactics they silence others-they think that makes them right. Sad, hey?

Azilis,

Like many other posters here I still can't figure you out except to say that you are on a zealous one-man mission for that "something-you-don't-even-know-what..."

Another of your silly statements just proving your perilous journey:

"How many Bible laws aren’t followed by Christians? Most Christians would be horrified at the thought."

Well if you understood the first thing about Christianity you would know that ALL human beings break ALL the laws ALL the time.

The laws were put there - in the Old Testament - just to prove that very point.

Without God's Grace and His intervention in Jesus, we (humans) would have been still trying to figure it out by ourselves. And many are...

This is where Muslims and Jews are stuck: they are still "UNDER THE LAW" - living by the laws - they refused to accept God's redeeming sacrifice in Jesus - therefore they are lost in the wilderness...

Your writings on OLO are a demonstration to "us Christians” that you too are among the very lost.

Without Jesus in your life - there is no hope for you in this life and the next.

So stop bothering everyone and start searching for The Only One that can give you peace and lighten your burden.

YOU don’t need to know all the answers but you must know HIM who has all the answers.

Aziliz,

Your response is what I had expected... You don't fool me by pretending not to know this is on the basis of logical reasoning. (No technical knowledge on genetic codes is required.)

I'm not optimistic we can even communicate. But I'd give this another shot:

Questions for you - Is there a set of 'genetic codes' somewhere, the underlying factor of a steering force which caused the French and British to do what they did, one that seduced Winston Churchill into 'gasing' the Kurds, caused British/US to manipulate the Middle East and to torture Iraqis in Abu Graib.. etc...etc...? If so, what is it and where is it?

Or will you continue to side-step because you cannot cope?

Irfan,

Glad to see that you changed your opinion regarding the PM's and Treasurer's comments made last week. I thought they were reasonable and I hope it is not just talk and legislation to tighen immigration and citizenship laws is enabled. Also to ensure prospective migrants get improved information regarding our society, before they come here.

I am not interested in debating religion verses religion and did not learn much from the posters.

I think you know what the problem here is. i.e. Lack of integration by many, but not all, Muslim males. If it is only a few, as you say, then they have done a bloody good job of giving Muslims a poor reputation.

Question? What to do about it?

It has been suggested to me that further generations will correct the problems, but I have doubts. I think the issues are cultural and the male attitudes are handed down through generations.

Our politicions do not have the solutions and neither do the thick Shieks. If you have any suggestions as to how integration can be improved please let us know.

Aziliz, I had written down your response: A day before you posted it;
Can’t put brains into statues.
I hope you are not a law student: With your credentials and outlook, The Victorian Government might appoint you as a judge in the Supreme Court. Only in Victoria Though. Or even a head of a department ?
Things that mmmake me go Hmmmmmmmmm

Coach **sigh**-I meant that the christians have by their own choice tipped out many of the laws in the Bible and chosen laws that are more kind, caring and civil. Not that they are bad people who break good laws. It was a compliment to Christians.

If you cannot figure out what I am on about it is surprising-I have been extremely clear. The 'mission' is only 'one man' because the other posters have scared everyone else off with their excessive abuse. Most rational people can't be bothered to argue when they are being abused.

Coach stop calling on Jesus to back you up.

What happens if you go to Heaven and Jesus says, "Sorry Coach you got it wrong-didn't you notice that Aziliz was preaching 'love your enemy' and especially 'remove the plank from your eye before you attempt to remove the mote from others' I want real Christians that practice my teachings not ones that just wear the Christian badge" and then he pushes the button that opens up the chute and you go flying down to the other place? Of course, this isn't within my belief structure but it sure matches yours.

GZTan-don't mix up being cryptic with being intelligent, there is a world of difference between the two. Now genetic codes are your topic. I never mentioned it. So you give your position on it and then expand on it. You are obviously interested in it. If you are not prepared to give your position on your own subject nor to go into detail on it then you have some cheek asking me to.

Banjo missed the point too. It is not religion versus religion. It is blind bigotry against a rational look at both sides.

A High Court Judge or Head of a State Department? Gee All, thanks for the compliment. It is much appreciated. :)

So you think you are finally getting it. I have been forced to repeat myself often enough, it is about time. Bet you didn't get it word perfect;)

Aziliz,

I'm not pretending to be intelligent. I don't even know if my questions will not backfire on me. It is a matter of two-way communication in a debate. I throw something at you and you return with your thought.

But you are certainly not returning anything we can further discuss on. Just being evasive and side-stepping.

Perhaps you're right I'm too cryptic for you. So let me make it a bit easier.

Forget about 'genetic codes'. The way you've been ranting tell me you think there is this thing called 'XYZ' which is the basis of all evil. So what is it and where is it? Better still, how does it influence human history?

If you're not able to prove that there is such a 'thing', then your ranting on about human atrocities come to a waste of time... you have no idea why and you have no solution (whether viable or otherwise does not matter)... History just rolls on in a 'random' manner, so why do you rant on?

coach - "Well if you understood the first thing about Christianity you would know that ALL human beings break ALL the laws ALL the time.". A law that most people are unable or unwilling to abide by is clearly not a reasonable or just law, one that everybody breaks all the time is not even worth considering. The problem is obviously with the law maker in that case rather than the breakers of the law.

Much like telling my son that he is in trouble if he can't make his bed when the bed is a bunk bed. The problem would be with my rule rather than his failure to follow the rule.

That particular belief is one of the great sicknesses of your gospel, any parent who treated his or her kids to the kind of injustice that your god supposedly treats the human race would have the kids taken away from them (if the various child protection agencies were on the ball) and placed with sane and caring foster parents rather than sick sadistic parents.

Laws that we cannot ever succeed in following make the "five pillars" sound like a good deal and I don't want them either.

In regard to your comment on the other thread, I don't accept Islam as such just as I don't accept Christainity. Much though I would like beliefs in strange gods to disappear from the world I don't want to live in the kind of world where we try and force that. I accept that people can be good, bad or indifferent regardless of their religion. I see much of what is happening here as a combination of a turf war by christains not wanting others on their turf and fear that has been stirred up as a result of some sections of the muslim community with big issues. Right now fundy christains are a much bigger threat to the freedoms that mark Australia than our muslim population is. Many of the tactics you ascribe to muslims are just as validly ascribed to christain fundies in their quest for power.

R0bert

RObert: If you knew anything at all about the Christian Bible you would know that the law [the big ten] could not be properly observed by humans, that's no, none, not any humans. It was set as a schoolmaster telling us just that. Today we do it by faith in Christ Jesus [that's the Christian Christ Jesus - not the ugly pagan moslem jesus of course, these brainless pagans get everything - unless it's to do with death and destruction, fouled up] His, that's Christ Jesus' righteousness is attributed to faithful Christians who have accepted and seen the need for His sacrifice. Even our "good works?" are not acceptable that is will not make us righteous. Death loving, suicidal, misogynistic, brutal moslems must show their god - hubna the moon god of mecca - their "good works?" so to get at the 70 virgins and the 32 'pearls' that's perpetually untouched boys with bottoms like peaches. Could/can never quite work out what the pagan moslem women get other that watching their men folk 'bonking' forever. Fine upstanding people these holy pagan moslems they are aiming for an X rated paradise - what utter and total ding-a-lings eh? numbat

Before I start, I'd just like to say that REDNECK should alter his name, as he is not a redneck at all, but probably the most rational person here.

Who else is sick to death of Muslims claiming that this or that part of their religion has been hijacked, not followed properly, and so on?

All that matters, Irfan take note, is that today, right across the planet Muslims, by Muslims I mean the Arab street, immigrants in the west, and governments, are acting in the most barbaric ways imaginable.

Most of the posts here make me sick. One I read was someone trying to say that Lebanese Muslims commit crimes at such an appalling rate because they were picked on at school!

One, just one, case, of a school principle from Punchbowl Boys High resigned and is on workers comp after a student (no prize for guessing the nationality: oh, and any leftists out there, I don't call them Australian because they say they aren't. Just watch a Bulldogs rubgy league game to see their ethnocentrism shine. Here you have a team with no affiliation to Lebanon other than one player, yet they show what can only be called racist attitudes, by waving Lebanese flags when the team plays) put a gun to his head.

Oh, and for all those who think none of us know Muslims, think again. I grew up in the Islamic diaspora heartland of Fairfield, and female friends of mine were often called sluts by burqa clad objects at the shops.

Never has there been such an intolerant culture come to this shore.

Why is it the same everywhere? Somebody tell me why there are pack rapes in EVERY ISLAMIC DIASPORA in the western world? Why? DOn't run away from Islam, tell me why Muslims believe they are superior? Not being rude, but I honestly can't think of one thing that would make them feel that way.

I mean, when you look at NAZI Germany, one can understand how they, after looking around, did think they were superior.

They were leaders in almost ALL scientific fields, they had culture, real culture as opposed to the superficial dress & cuisine - but depth, they had thinkers, philosophers, writers, poets, scientists.

I can also understand how they thought they were superior specimens, I mean, one only has to look at the actors on the cover of a BOLLYWOOD movie to see that they think white people are more attractive too, not that this matters to me.

It's just that the science of the day regarding genetics was in it's infancy. No race is superior over another, apart from aesthetics perhaps.

Why did Muslims tell locals at Cronulla to get away from the rockpools because their burqa clad women could swim uncontaminated?

Why doesn't the Islamic community demand it's bigoted leaders step down? I would call on Irfan to challenge that, although having read the SMH, I know where he stands on Sharia.

Irfan, you and all Muslims who support Sharia are NAZI's. The Palestinian people, viewed as helpless victims for so long, and used by Muslim leaders (who don't care about them in the slightest - ask Irfan about how they're treated in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan) to call for jihad, are now being seen as BLOODTHIRSTY GENOCIDAL MANIACS who want to destory their neighbours.

I believe the west should use this opportunity to crush Hamas. I mean, the next terrorist attack they do, it's an act of war by a government isn't it? Got to love the west, one step ahead, although I can't see what the point is of further Muslim migration when we see the consequences so clearly. And anyone who thinks it's poverty, for a start go and cry, but secondly, I come from Gosford, where youth unemploy. is the highest in Australia, yet there are no Gangs who racially target people for bashings and rapes. Gang rape with a racial motive is a MUSLIM SPECIFIC crime.

To Azilitz

I know that you only want to talk about the last 100 years when you drone on and on about Western Imperialism. If you included the last 1000 years you would have to admit that Islam was just as enthusiastic about military expansionism as the West was. Pointing out that the West and Islam are therefore equal in that respect would undermine the traditional Muslim worldview that they are just poor victims of the nasty Western world.

Look mate. I come from the bottom of my own society, and I have lived among people who consider that the world owes them a living. Too many people in the “disadvantaged” class are so full of resentment towards the very society which is paying their bills, that they even develop a hatred for the very people upon whose generosity they need to survive.

When I look at Muslims I see exactly the same condition. Muslims just can not get over the fact that they have been left behind because of their slavish adherence to a religion which is self evidently out of date. For the last 500 years, they have routinely snatched at the priceless gifts of modern technology which the Western world has bequeathed to them without a word of thanks. Instead you all sit around in your decaying cities, your mud huts and your caves, and you think up ways to justify your hatred of those who’s prosperity was created by education, gender equality, scientific research and secular government.

Do you think that you guys could stop nursing your resentments and start thinking straight? Because we in the West are getting sick of carrying a religiously obsessed bunch of ingrates. The last time I went into a dole office I thought I was in the Casbah. When western people begin clamouring to immigrate to Muslim societies, you can crow about the superiority of your system over ours. But that is unlikely, isn’t it?

uh-redneck-how many times do I have to tell you I am not a moslem? Doesn't sink in hey?

And how many times do I have to tell you that I think there are faults with Christianity and Islam? Bit thick aren't you?

I have not and do not confine myself to speaking about the last 100 years but in this instant I was trying to illustrate why the current war is happening. So you bring up something that has no association with the current Middle Eastern Crisis. fffft over your head.

Do you mean the 'technology the West bequeaths the Iraqis' is bombs on their heads and polluting depleted uranium and constant interference in their politics for the benefit of economically lining their own pockets?

The West did not develop all science or technology and if saying other people are less technologically advanced is supposed to mean they cannot advance then the west would still be living in their mud huts.

Ever heard of the cradle of civilisation? Obviously not. Wasn't Europe. And you use Arabic numerals. 1,2,3-their arabic. Modern mathematics owes a huge amount to the Arabs, more than just the numerals. Ever heard of the Renaissance? Much of it revolved around the learning the Arab world brought to the ignorant West. Technological advancements favours one race then another-one country then another-noone has it forever-it cycles on.

America originally got wealthy because of their use of slave labour in the cotton fields and because of oil. Once their oil wells ran out they knew they had to get cheap oil in order to keep advancing and keep on top. The oil industry is the biggest and most profitable industry in the world. Didn't you hear Bush's recent speech on the West's addiction to oil?

That is why they are constantly interfering in the Middle East. I recommend you read "Crude" by Sonia Shah and "Sow the Wind" by John Kaey for starters.

You have so missed the point. You are so boxed into your black and white, two teams only take a side mentality. No idea about taking individual issues-just blindness. You are sitting in a stadium voting for a football team. You would have to get your brain to understand that there are no sides just a million issues to be taken one at a time-that is until idiots who only see sides force the hand of more moderate people. There is validity in both criticising and encouraging your own and others. You think we can do whatever we want to them because they are on the other team. So barbaric-so mud hut of you. You and I do not live in the same universe. So you will always miss where I am coming from. ffffft-over the head.

Aziliz,

U wrote: "... I am not a moslem..."

You are certainly a Moslem sympathiser. Perhaps close to being a Moslem yourself. We judge you by what you write. So stop pretending your analysis is above everyone else.

U wrote: "... there are faults with Christianity and Islam..."

Like I said in the other thread - completely pointless position. Do you suppose anyone will remotely challenge such a rhetorical statement?

U wrote: "... in this instant... illustrate why the current war is happening....fffft over your head."

What's wrong if redneck brings up something different? He can talk about his sex life if he wanted. Are you being arrogant?

But worst, you then continue your rant along a different tangent: "Do you mean the 'technology... lining their own pockets?.. .."

If you are adamant that redneck's discussion did not associate with the current Middle Eastern crisis, in what way is your ranting connected to what redneck had said? In other word, you're one bastard of a HYPOCRITE !

U wrote: "The West did not develop ALL science or technology..."

You treat us like kids or something. Spare us such useless rhetoric next time.

I wish you could have read my comments on the other thread before posting this current one.

Like I said, I don't have to go through your entire posts to pick out lots of holes and frauds in your argument.

So next time, make sure to carefully think through EVERY STATEMENT before you post.

To me, you rants so far are mostly illogic rubbish lacking in credibility.

Oh! aziliz: On another forum you chide me for being abusive - what's this the pot calling the kettle black? You do not do to bad in the abuse and ridicule yourself. As well you also see yourself correct and everyone who doesn't have your views as a twit. Your a sad sad person. numbat

Let's be more specific Numbat. I chided you for having an entire post full of abuse only. Not one fact, not one issue, no rational debate-just abuse. GZTan's posts on this and 4211 are also far too abusive. You can't answer such posts.

I tend to ignore the rest of the abuse in posts so long as there are some facts or issues to deal as well but I will admit the abuse combined with having to repeat myself over and and over and over and then having redneck come back and still say the same old-"your a moslem and you suck" and "you think the west is all bad and that moslems are all good" when I constantly say I'm not a moslem and have issues with both sides, did get to me. I don't retract from labelling it as unintelligent but I could have cut out some of the comments.

I get abuse in reply to an unabusive discussion of issues, a list of facts, snippets of history, or quotes from the Bible in fact anything I say.

You and GZTan are the ones most inclined to abuse without giving any information, not much of a prize for you two. Your idea of a discussion seems to speak insults like throwing verbal stones at people. GZTan also doesn't seem to understand the difference between commenting on what someone says and therefore being relevant to what they say and starting a new subject and also gets upset if someone says something positive as though it is taboo to be anything but insulting.

I genuinely say this to help you improve your posts-there's a whole internet out there where you can research what you say and bring us some real information and many interesting posts with information and links posted by others on the forum. Give us something interesting to think about instead of just thinking "there they go again calling people names because they have nothing worthwhile to say".

Look forward to your next post to see if there is an improvement.

Aziliz,

You got carried away in your ranting and rebukes of others. Inside you was a belief that you were more intelligent than everyone else.

I was simply returning you in kind and bringing you down to earth.

As for your comment that I "...abuse without giving any information..."

Unlike you, I am not an 'information' person. Rather, I am a 'logic' person.

To me, information is subject to distortions and becomes useless if the logic-processing of it is frauded. That's what I like to point out to people.

Each of my 'abuse' carries a brief but sufficient information for logical analysis. If this is not your cup of tea then I can't help it. I only have so many hours a day.

GZTan-logic and information are not mutually exclusive. If you don't know much about another religion or about the political history that is behind current events then you don't know what you are talking about. I feel so sorry for you that you could think for a moment they are antithetical.

You think you brought me down to earth by calling me names?

I feel so sorry for you that you despise knowledge, think you can be 'logical' without it and then think that you are doing something positive by abusing people.

When I see a string of abuse of the kind you come up with I think the person abusing is ignorant so there is no bringing me 'down to earth' with abuse-you have the opposite effect.

Your 'logic' *is* based on 'information' and if your information is scant or lopsided then so is your 'logic'.

Poor GZ, I am imagining you living in a family that despised study but thought shouting and abusing people was an appropriate way to conduct a discussion. Where you didn't have to know anything to be smarter than everyone else. Just shout louder and use the biggest swear words.

I was brought up in a family that loved books and knowledge, where discussion was lively and noone was abused and belittled for knowing something. Where books, encyclopaedias and our huge Webster Dictionary were often consulted mid discussion to make sure we had our facts straight. Where the weekly trip to the library was a joy.

You cannot return to me in kind if you are more abusive and less informative. You are returning to me in a totally different kind.

Aziliz,

It does not surprise me you keep making statements that are frauded in reasoning. This is because a person like you (who loved books and knowledge) has a tendency for rote learning.

There are plenty like you.

You are incorrect. 'logic' and 'information' are completely different things. 'mutual exclusiveness' does not apply.

Logic has NO dependency on information. But information without proper logic is DEAD and useless. Information is just that- information. A statement of deception is also a piece of information. Information does not equal fact or truth. Through logical reasoning, one filters out frauded information, arrive at facts, then those facts are used to support further logical reasoning in the following fashion:

Logic + fact --> truth

U wrote: "... if your information is scant or lopsided then so is your 'logic'."

This frauded statement confirms one fact - Your ability to reason is dependent on information that you perceive. ie. you are never really a good thinker in the first place.

This equation below describes you quite well:

Selective Information + 'frauded logic' = Distorted view

Sorry, books, encyclopaedias.... trip to the library... do not impress me at all... because so far your ability to think does not impress me (and not just me, I might add).

So much for years of hard slog...

The End of Tolerance
Farewell, multiculturalism. A cartoon backlash is pushing Europe to insist upon its values.

March 6, 2006 issue - The world has long looked upon the Dutch as the very model of a modern, multicultural society. Open and liberal, the tiny seagoing nation that invented the globalized economy in the 1600s prided itself on a history of taking in all comers, be they Indonesian or Turkish, African or Chinese.

How different things look today. Dutch borders have been virtually shut. New immigration is down to a trickle. The great cosmopolitan port city of Rotterdam just published a code of conduct requiring Dutch be spoken in public. Parliament recently legislated a countrywide ban on wearing the burqa in public. And listen to a prominent Dutch establishment figure describe the new Dutch Way with immigrants. "We demand a new social contract," says Jan Wolter Wabeke, High Court Judge in The Hague. "We no longer accept that people don't learn our language, we require that they send their daughters to school, and we demand they stop bringing in young brides from the desert and locking them up in third-floor apartments."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11569485/site/newsweek/
Germany failed with their own “Guest worker” Program and even the French integration failed spectacularly not so very long ago – where, guess who, rampaged and rioted for weeks over two criminals getting themselves killed through their own ignorance.

However new European immigration criteria will test for “assimilability” i.e. mix in – or get out and those who do not assimilate will be deported back to their country of origin. It is my line of reasoning that people should respect the host country and not be parasitical.

Too many people have argued here that Moslems are not getting a “fair go” and we are racist, which is patently a stilted sectarian bias as it is a recent phenomenon with the catalyst being the Lebanese Moslems and their hatred emanating from their radical uneducated leaders who know no better.

The sign of things to come perhaps? The result of so much tolerance and respect for an alien culture, when all that is returned is the snarling of vicious intolerant sectarian bigots. .

So now the Dutch have finally drawn the line in the sand so to speak, they are demanding that immigrants learn to speak Dutch, as have the other so called very desirable countries to immigrate into.

Perhaps it is for the better that we also know the Moslem radicals and those who refuse to assimilate into an Australian culture, however imperfect, which has withstood many tests of wills - but has never descended into a civil war, has never had the ignominy of being racked by sectarian inspired violence, like Ireland, as well as Lebanon and Iraq
What now needs to be done is to implement some natural changes, immigrants need to speak the recognized language of the land, which in this case just happens to be English. Overt religious symbols need to be completely and totally banned and adopt the dress of the country, as is now being promulgated in many of the countries of Europe - I find nothing wrong with that. If, for some strange reason you wish to follow your chosen faith, I have no real objection, but if it is one of violence, then it is against humanity.

Whilst I do not agree with everything many of the posters have said here - it is obvious that there are two very opposing factions here, those who are Australians first and happy to be Australians - and those who know no better than to abuse their hosts, including those whose command of the Australian English language is not only sadly lacking, but in many instances deliberately twisted and misconstrued - right Diana?

Your snide comments do you no justice and while the income for writing for the Australian would come in handy, I speak for myself, from my own observation and my own experience - but you are so bitter in yourself that you just cannot admit to something beyond your understanding.

GZTan-Facts and information are not mutually exclusive. Granted that facts could be called 'correct' information. Of course the information you base your opinons on should be factual.

You don't work with 'logic' alone as you claimed in your previous post but with your little talk about logic plus fact are only repeating exactly what I said substituting the word 'fact' for 'information'. In other words you completely agree with me. Now that is a change.

As I meant 'factual information' (seeming as you are off splitting hairs and setting up straw men) then obviously if you do not have the facts then you cannot come to a correct analysis of the situation. So once again you agree with me.

Your equation that you say describes me:

Selective Information + 'frauded logic' = Distorted view

is precisely what I was saying was your problem. The proof lies in our posts. You say anything you feel like without reference to any facts mostly just insults and abuse-while I present facts for people to read and make their own minds up. Proof that you do not like the way you argue and prefer the way I do.

Now that you admit you need facts, it would be a good idea if you actually put some 'study' in to find those facts and the presented them instead of your abuse and insults to the forum. Follow your own advice.

Aziliz,

"... information you base your opinons on should be factual."

You ought not to think your information is factual if your reasoning is frauded. It is a matter of a 'belief' that it is factual. But you do not believe your reasoning is frauded, do you?

You should not even substitute the word 'fact' for 'information' because 'fact' implies something that has been validated through logical reasoning. It makes no sense to re-validate a fact.

"... if you do not have the facts then you cannot come to a correct analysis..."

Let me paraphrase: If your logic is frauded or there is no fact, or both, then you may not arrive at the truth.

"...I present facts for people to read and make their own minds up..."

You didn't provide facts per se, just selective information and your biased analysis (fraud logic). You were telling people they are wrong based on your distorted view of the world. Just like me telling you you're wrong, based on selected statement. But at least my logical reasoning is sound. The fact that I've been abusive is wrong, I accept that.

Although I don't endorse Kekenidika's bigotry there are more sides to the immigration debate than "we don't want their filthy culture"vs."let's save them all"

Firstly, some immigrants come not knowing our culture or laws then are unhappy when they find out. Some pack and return. Others stay and stay unhappy. It can be a huge investment in time,emotion and money to migrate especially if you're a family. To then decide you made a mistake is traumatic. A process where migrants are informed and compassionately assessed with a mutual input as to whether Australia is appropriate for them could save them wasted time and resources. If they come informed their settlement also would be easier.

Another angle-the damage immigration does to the countries the migrants leave. This isn't just us being kind to migrants. They're usually chosen because of their education and work experience-not because they're refugees. People talk about migrants being 'parasites' but if we steal the 'best' from other countries then we're the parasites. It is called 'brain drain' and it's a real problem. It's selfish for our government to bring in professionals that are needed in their own country instead of training our own,to deprive countries of their most productive that they’ve invested in raising/educating.

Refugees from wartorn/repressive regimes would benefit more if the problems they have in their country of origin are solved.

Saying"leave them in their country and we won't bother them and they won't bother us" ignores the Global Economy. Our businesses are active in their countries and go overseas to escape tax, for cheap labour, for freedom from health and safety standards,etc. Our mining and oil companies have at times partnered with brutal regimes that remove people from their land to let the company in with no compensation, murdering them if they complain often leaving them in marginal land with polluted waterways from the mining. We need more control of what our companies are doing overseas. Farming tariff protection-another issue.

GZTan-Glad you agree on the abuse. Your insistence you use facts that you correctly interpret and I don’t –we’ll work on that ;)

Aziliz

Excellent points re:

Brain Drain on countries left behind.

Lack of knowledge about new countries.

Global Economy.

For a start, I know how hard it can be living in a new country. Even if its culture is very similar to my own like the USA. I lived there for roughly a two year period after becoming romantically involved with an American. His father believed the only reason I was involved with his son was to get a green card. Many other Americans saw me in that light as well, even though Australia is as free and democratic as theirs. There was a prevailing view that all the rest of the world wanted to live in America.

There are similar views here; that everyone wants to live in Australia - this couldn't be further from the truth. We all love the countries of our birth - I will always love Australia regardless of type of government in power. It would break my heart to have to leave due to war or other tragedies. I know this because I did consider living in America.

The effect of migrants leaving their countries behind does have a negative effect on the future of their former countries. This is something very few posters to this forum gives consideration to.

As for the "close our borders and stick our heads in the sand brigade" - reality time we are in a global economy whether we like it or not. Therefore, the better off other countries become, the better off we are. By helping others we are simply helping ourselves.

I will always remember how homesick I became, particularly around times like Christmas and other celebrations where I was accustomed to the inimitable Australian way of celebration. This is why I know how much courage it takes to leave your people and your country behind and it takes a lot of courage. To then arrive in a country where you are regarded with at least suspicion and at worst hostility must be very hard to endure.

To all immigrants - you are braver than I.

Aziliz and Scout: great couple of posts! I wish this side of the issue was discussed more than just rhetoric like we see every day.