David Latimer

"Australian laws and values promote religious tolerance and religious freedom. Muslims can practice Islam in Australia -- there is no encroachment on your practice of Christianity.... "

This might sound nice on the surface, and would indeed make a good political sound bite, but:

It does not change the natural inclination for highly driven minorities to advance the interests of their community or religion in incremental ways which ultimately add up to a considerable 'encroachment' on the status quo here.

You mention 'tolerance' but sadly, it is the host who is meant to be tolerant, rather than minorities. If this were not the case, the Ham sandwich affair would not have occurred, nor would the idea of calls to prayer via PA system from mosques be seriously countenanced.

The Hamtramck affair (do a search) showed clearly that Islamic minorities do not see any offence in loud rantings from mosques claiming "There is no God but Allah and MOhammed is his Prophet" but I sure do and I'm confident most aussies do also.(except maybe you)

The reason I'm so persistent in criticising Mohammed, is that Islam stands or falls on "him". If he was not from God, then Islam is also not from God. If that is true, then Muslims are deluded, deceived, and on the wrong track. You may ask 'Why don't you scrutinize atheism or secularism or humanism with the same passion' ? Well..I have done, do and will continue to, but those other forms of unbelief are less malignant than Islam, and will usually (unless Alchemist becomes the new Feuhrer) let we Chrstians build new Churches and propogate our faith.

David, you seem to suggest the UN is some kind of social Messiah, but I've debunked the UN on numerous occasions as a cesspool of convenient manipulation for vested national/communal interest, and a result of power balances based on military force many times. I have no faith or trust in it.

The UN resolutions might be something to laude while sipping latte in Lygon street, but in reality they reflect the previous paragraph.

BD

"It does not change the natural inclination for highly driven minorities to advance the interests of their community or religion in incremental ways which ultimately add up to a considerable 'encroachment' on the status quo here."

For a change I completely agree with you. Hence my concern about the Family First Party and the apparent unrepresentative proportion of christains at the top of federal politics. When muslims start fielding candidates under a "sharia law party" (named that or otherwise) then their candidates can go to a similar position on my ballot paper to that occupied by christain fundies posing as family values candidates, extreme leftwingers posing as environmentalists and the like. In the mean time your mob are a much bigger immediate threat to my freedoms than Australia's muslim population.

R0bert

Martin Ibn Warriq, numbat, Before you make unqualified statements, read, Akhenaton's Hymns to the Sun, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Sumerian creation myth and the Vedic Hymns. Plus the hundreds of documented historical facts providing very interesting reading and logical explainations for biblical origins, compared to christian illusions.

However as you can't qualify anything you say except with illusion and examples of the barbarity of your beliefs(revolving door scripture), you may not be able to read, just repeat metronome parrot fashion what your church and preachers dictate. It's always those that sit in the pews and self appointed zealots that have the most to say about that which they don't understand. It's easy to see you haven't researched anything and are too frightened to actually avail yourselves of the knowledge freely available.

Just to give you a bit more to get rabid about, the New Testament texts may have actually been authored by a Roman aristocratic banking family, "Piso". The Pisos had the New Testament written in attempt to destroy Orthodox Pharisaic Judaism, by creating a religion that offered a solution to the Jewish problem in the Roman empire and the world.

I know you won't, as it would require you to learn. It's hard to find a dedicated christian that really wants to know the truth and is prepared to research their belief fully and not just through a fictional rendition of mythology. I can drop in a few more facts if you like, we could start with jesus, "Apollonius of Tyana," or “Yeshua Ben Pandeira”, whichever one you want to call him.

Martin,“Your lack of colds and flu you believe is part proof of the truth of dimensional evolutionism”

That may be your uneducated opinion, but mine is that I have a good diet free of diary, animal fats and chemical additives. I have control of my body and mind with no addictions nor lack of mental strength, unlike you. Numbat, I never use pills, but you certainly know which ones and when to take them.

R0bert

I'm with you - re:"Hence my concern about the Family First Party and the apparent unrepresentative proportion of christains at the top of federal politics. When muslims start fielding candidates under a "sharia law party" ....etc

The following:

Hillsongs mission statement

'To reach and influence the world by building
a large Bible-based church, changing mindsets
and empowering people to lead and impact
in every sphere of life'

This statement really concerns me, especially where it states "changing mindsets" - Whose? Why? Are other mindsets somehow wrong?

"Empowering people" - sounds warm and fuzzy. But empowering which people? To do what?

And finally

"Every sphere of life"

The personal sphere? - Hands off my sphere!

The political Sphere? - Separation of church and state absolutely essential.

I too fear take over by any fundamentalism. Be it Muslims, Christian, Hindu or Venusian.

With the current crisis among Muslims I wonder if a lot of the fear expressed as hatred towards Muslims isn't just fear of dogma in general

When Muslims came to Australia, they knew they were coming to a predominately European culture. They knew the criminal and civil codes were not Sharia but predominantly English, certainly in origin.

As Peter Costello said, if you want to live under a Sharia legal system, go live in Iran.

The issue with law is we can only have one. If we have more than one we end up with dual and thus duplicitous standards, (e.g. how does a five year term in prison relate to losing ones left hand?).

(I have the same concerns and reservations about aboriginal tribunals dealing with aboriginal offenders under tribal law standards.)

Peter Costello was totally, completely and absolutely right. We do not need to import a bunch of xenophobes who do not want to assimilate or participate into the mainstream of Australian social institutions but want to be treated separately, with their own separate institutions.

Such attitudes and expectations work against and turn back all the efforts of everyone who believe that “segregation” is evil

spot on r0b and scout.

here is a little song, care of the Dead Kennedys.(updated a little from the 80's)

You call yourself the Moral Majority
We call ourselves the people in the real world
Trying to rub us out, but we're going to survive
God must be dead if you're alive

You say, 'God loves you. Come and buy the Good News'
Then you buy the president and swimming pools
If Jesus don't save 'til we're lining your pockets
God must be dead if you're alive

Circus-tent con-men and Southern belle bunnies
Milk your emotions then they steal your money
It's the new dark ages with the fascists toting bibles
Cheap nostalgia for the Salem Witch Trials

Stodgy ayatollahs in their dobble-knit ties
Burn lots of books so they can feed you their lies
Masturbating with a flag and a bible
God must be dead if you're alive

Blow it out your ass, Jerry Falwell
Blow it out your ass, Jesse Helms
Blow it out your ass, Ronald Reagan
What's wrong with a mind of my own?

You don't want abortions, you want battered children
You want to ban the pill as if that solves the problem
Now you wanna force us to pray in school
God must be dead if you're such a fool

You're planning for a war with or without Iran
Building a police state with the Ku Klux Klan
Pissed at your neighbour? Don't bother to nag
Pick up the phone and turn in a fag

Blow it out your ass, Tony Abbot
Blow it out your ass, Steve Fielding
Ram it up your c+nt, Dana
Cos God must be dead
If you're alive
God must be dead
If you're alive