DAVID... (Latimer)...c'mon.. live dangerously.. TELL us ur belief system ? :) No, don't worry, what you personally believe will not change the truth or falsehood of the positions put forward here, though it makes for more interesting posts at times..

I have not suggested you desire to criticize Jesus, I'm just saying 'By all means do so' on the basis of the material available, or better put, criticize US on the basis of His teaching and life from that same material.

Let me risk boring you all by re-stating the point, that Bashir did a very good job on outlining some very important truths, about Muslims being open to criticism, but did he offer for ISLAM as a belief system and its prophet to be criticized ?

He seems to have aimed his barbs at those who 'misrepresent' Islam and its prophet. His comment "Mohammed fought for free speech" is VERY telling here. Is he prepared to be scrutinized on the grounds of Mohammeds authorization of the murder of a mocking Jewish poet ?

So, I'm very stubbornly draggggging a posting team (note the arrogance 0_^ :) face to face with the 'unspoken' message from Bashirs article. "Islam is ok in itself" Something I disagree with to the point of it maybe one day costing me my life.

Your point about the self fulfilling prophecy is indeed a possibility if we take the following view

a) Islam is evil
b) We must make war on it immediately.

But given the West's rather 'wait till they kick us in the balls' (Poland, Pearl Harbor) approach to international conflict, I doubt this will be a concern.

We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries.

Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry.

Irfan

Thanks for your response.

I liked it.

'keith, sharia principles themselves state that sharia laws dealing with governmental matters and criminal sanctions do not apply outside a sharia state. and the only sharia-endorsed amputations i am aware of in australia are halal slaughter and a procedure that i underwent when i was a wee-toddler.'

I liked my questions also.

(1)'What is your opinion of Bashir's view? Do you agree with all of it, part of it or none of it? '

Am I missing something important? I am scratching my head...thankfully giving my back a break...among other things.

(2)'Would you mind explaining to me exactly how Peter Costello's views on sharia are ignorant? '

Your response in regard to this is not as was portrayed by the cleric referred to by Costello . I'll quote Costello.

'The refusal to acknowledge the rule of law as laid down by democratic institutions also stabs at the heart of the Australian compact. The radical Muslim Cleric Ben Brika was asked in an interview on the 7.30 Report in August last year:-

“But don't you think Australian Muslims – Muslims living in Australia – also have a responsibility to adhere to Australian law?”

To which he answered:-

“This is a big problem. There are two laws – there is an Australian law and there is an Islamic law.”

No this is not a big problem. There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution. If you can't accept that then you don't accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for.'

Now I'd have to conclude Costello, was not, as you claim, ignorant of sharia law. Since he and we know Australia is no sharia state then it follows he was still pretty much in agreement with your explanation. However perhaps you should direct your comment re ignorance of sharia law to a certain Muslim cleric. He's stated exactly the opposite of your view. I accept your explanation of sharia law. It is understandable and reasonable.

Irfan

Circumcision isn't an amputation. If it was then I'd have cause to be bitterly angry with my parents and the surgical staff attending mine. ;-)

Ahem...hate to raise the topic ...but your definition of multiculturalism? I've seen Costello's. I think it's worth discussing.

Finally thank's for the reference...buggar I'll have to spend half a day reading now.

regards keith

For ALL:
Read a very critical Somalian response to Bashir Goth:
http://wardheernews.com/Articles_06/feb/19_Homily.of.devils.advocate_Ismail.htm

[Please no responses saying how this proves me wrong. Perhaps you can know something of Bashir Goth's true audience and what his is up against. Very sceptical of the west, just as some here are sceptical about Islam.]

-:-

Response to David BOAZ:

You say you're worried that criticising Islam will "maybe one day costing me my life." You have a legal right to criticise, but what is achieved by it? Why "relish the thought of setting them straight about their prophet" as per my example? Only terrorists and extremists believe Islam is about what you say it's about. Should they then not respond as though you are promoting terrorism?

You also say "Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry." I thought I'd set the forum straight on the great ham sandwich affair. Your answers keep suggesting that you lack confidence in Australian values, our democracy and the protections it offers all citizens. The police are not going to abandon the law.

Australian laws and values promote religious tolerance and religious freedom. Muslims can practice Islam in Australia -- there is no encroachment on your practice of Christianity unless the whole constitution is abandoned.

And here is the rub: You say "We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries." Actually, we do have a problem with religious intolerance and injustice in other countries. Australia does believe in universal human rights. Australia is an active member of the United Nations.

So at each point, you appear to be at odds with the Australian way.

-:-

Response to Scotty: Are you saying the baby-boomer generation is the silver lining of World War II? Now, that’s lateral thinking

For ALL:
Read a very critical Somalian response to Bashir Goth:
http://wardheernews.com/Articles_06/feb/19_Homily.of.devils.advocate_Ismail.html

[Please no responses saying how this proves me wrong. Perhaps you can know something of Bashir Goth's true audience and what his is up against. Very sceptical of the west, just as some here are sceptical about Islam.]

-:-

Response to David BOAZ:

You say you're worried that criticising Islam will "maybe one day costing me my life." You have a legal right to criticise, but what is achieved by it? Why "relish the thought of setting them straight about their prophet" as per my example? Only terrorists and extremists believe Islam is about what you say it's about. Should they then not respond as though you are promoting terrorism?

You also say "Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry." I thought I'd set the forum straight on the great ham sandwich affair. Your answers keep suggesting that you lack confidence in Australian values, our democracy and the protections it offers all citizens. The police are not going to abandon the law.

Australian laws and values promote religious tolerance and religious freedom. Muslims can practice Islam in Australia -- there is no encroachment on your practice of Christianity unless the whole constitution is abandoned.

And here is the rub: You say "We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries." Actually, we do have a problem with religious intolerance and injustice in other countries. Australia does believe in universal human rights. Australia is an active member of the United Nations.

So at each point, you appear to be at odds with the Australian way.

-:-

Response to Scotty: Are you saying the baby-boomer generation is the silver lining of World War II? Now, that’s lateral thinking

Bashir Goth is a scholar worthy to be listened to compared to the unquestioning devotion given by Ismail Ali Ismail to Islam. Bashir is a reformer and thinker that can bring the light of God upon the evil practise and behaviour of a barbaric interpretation of the Kor'an. Bashir follows in the footsteps of Jesus who confronted the advocates of Judaism in their blindedness to the truth of God; so they sought his death for blaspheming their great religion.

No religion is great that cannot examine itself!!

Compare this Quote: "
Bashir Goth has tried in his article "Cartoons put a great religion to the test" (WardheerNews.com, 10 February, 2006) to be too clever by half and has in the process laid bare both the bankruptcy of his argument and his malevolence towards Islam and Moslems. The very title of his article is of course offensive to Moslems and is indicative of a schizophrenic-personality approach to treating an important and burning issue: "important" because it has brought to the fore how the West and The Moslem World see each other, and "burning" because it is topical but, literally, too hot an issue to play with. Islam is too great a religion to be tested by idiotic cartoons drawn by an evil person and promoted by the diabolical others who propound a boundless and therefore mindless freedom of expression. The writer would have been probably justified to choose as the title of his article words which would have reflected the view that the cartoons put the tolerance of Moslems to the test. But he chose to drag Islam into his diatribe against Moslems a diatribe which leaves little doubt that the writer is attacking Islam itself in a roundabout way."

Ismail Ali Ismail cannot see that Bashir's article was exactly a call for Muslims to account for their infantile barbarity compared to the essentials of Islam as Bashir sees them; of peace and tolerance.