Yabby you may be interested in this:

Right now, fake pregnancy counsellors are being allowed to operate unregulated in Australia. These organisations claim to offer unbiased professional advice, but in reality are staffed by anti-choice volunteers with little or no formal qualifications.

Some clients have even been called “murderers” by these so-called counsellors. Anti-choice activists disguise their views with generic sounding organisational names, promoting their "non-directive" services.

These groups don't have to disclose that they are anti-choice & refuse to refer for abortion. They have been reported to provide false and misleading information about abortion - including that it causes breast cancer, infertility and mental illness.

Worse, the Australian Government is funding some of these groups.

Let the government know that this is not acceptable. Women are entitled to all information about pregnancy – not just an edited version by anti-choicers.

The link below is an opportunity to register your complaint.

http://www.getup.org.au/campaign.asp?campaign_id=32

Thanks

(continued from previous)
It does not neccessarily make me selfish or callous, and the example of the tumor - well the reaction was as expected. I hoped it would highlight the shades of grey in between the extremes. That was the intention. Everone's veiw of the grey area is different, and it does not make it right or wrong untill it acts negatively on others - for this to happen they have to be self aware, not simply exhibit a reflex in utero (I'm for well regulated voluntary euthinasea as well).

I'm glad other people have a great family life, good luck to them. I have a great marriage. It's not always easy, but it's worth fighting for. Not wanting kids, and supporting the right to abort (lets face it it's too late for me now, Kiddo is happening in a couple of weeks) does not make me inherently selfish or bitter any more than a barren couple who want kids could be considered bitter for seeking IVF.

But to those who think I am a blight on the world for my veiws, I got the reults of my final post vasectomy sample this morning. You have nothing to worry about......

Lastly, my right to choose stance is not as you put it support for abortion only. If it were, I don't think I'd be refering to my dearest one in the present and future tenses. I know multiple people who have had abortions, and who are not scarred for life. Many of our friends, previous group included are now having planned children. Maybe this is why I'm having one, I don't know it's not up to me. Right to choice by your inference would not allow this situation because after pregnancy occured their only choice would have been abortion. Free RU486 with the home pregnancy test.

Well, that's my contribution. Thanks for the debate. Watch out for the CSV hotlist, you can foster it as your own bundle of joy. You just have to wait untill the emotiona police make it illegal to leave the house during lullaby time.

Scout you may not like the facts but there are well researched studies into the causes of breast cancer in women and links with the removal of a healthy foetus after the breasts have begun to prepare for pregnancy. There is a 16 times greater chance after having an abortion of setting conditions to gain cancer of the breast than there is for heredity predispositions.

To remove the placenta from the womb before foetal maturity damages the lining of the womb and creates conditions that reduce the future possibilitiues of a sucessful pregnancy.

Because of the hormone rush in early pregnancy it can cause hormone imbalance longterm if the pregnancy is suddenly terminated. This resulting in mood changes, depression etc.
Contact: Professor Joel Brind Ph.D 9 Vassar Street Ploughkeepsie, NY 12601, USA. or www.abortionbreastcancer.com

Quote, "They have been reported to provide false and misleading information about abortion - including that it causes breast cancer, infertility and mental illness."

ROFL Meg, now I must be unhappy and troubled or even bitter, because I highlight some of the rubbish that the Catholic Church
promotes. Clearly you know as much about the minds of skeptics
as the pope knows about the joys of sex :)

As like many children, my mother decided to have me baptised,
I had no say in the matter. The nuns tried to brainwash me like
so many other poor kiddies. They should be ashamed of themselves
for having told me so many lies.

True believers like yourself, who clearly can't cope in the world without your beliefs in the supernatural, would be amazed at how
peaceful the lives of us skeptics can be, once you get over the
all the weird stuff that you believe in. That does not mean that we don't have a strong sense of justice and when others peddle
nonsense or even cause suffering, that we don't feel strongly enough to expose as to why its nonsense or highlight the suffering.

There are good reasons why Catholics are having more and more trouble trying to impose their "rules" on people like me, or even on the majority of other Catholics. We stood up and still stand up and make sure that it won't happen again, as it used to be, if you study history. Our freedoms and rights were and are hard fought for.
Now its time that the third world should have similar rights
and freedoms, time for that suffering in the name of religious dogma
to end. I will make my contribution, along with a myriad of other
secular forces

Well Philo you’ve sufficiently rebutted Scout’s anti-life propaganda. Which ‘fake’ family-planning-group was that info from Scout? Let’s protest against taxpayer-funds wasted there…

KETKIDK (Know-enough-etc), you’ve now turned full circle, a good thing, since you began espousing why your wife owes you – then the reasons you’ve stayed-her contribution…so my first assumption was possibly correct: ‘…I suspect your comment: ‘she chose to not abort and I chose to stay’, may hide more feelings for your partner than those expressed…’

Perhaps your postings may be as cathartic as your therapist’s visits…cheaper too! :)

‘I hoped it would highlight the shades of grey in between the extremes.’

Your comments on foetus’ and tumours gave no shades of grey at all – the differences are either end of the spectrum of life. Your comment regarding tumours being ‘conceived’ indicates your knowledge of biology could do with a brush-up…children ARE conceived, tumours are NOT…:)

‘Right to choice by your inference…only choice would have been abortion.’

On the contrary…a pro-lifer will always welcome the choice for life, no matter what has gone before – see the writings of Bernard Nathanson, (founder-US abortion movement, now an outspoken pro-lifer)…your ‘choice’ for a childless marriage, irrespective of contraceptive failures would’ve ensured that (best option)…your attitude initially indicated little else…then the tone of your statements changed…first the child is likened to a tumour (no rights)…now he-she’s ‘Kiddo’…your therapist may tell you that’s progress!

It may mean that you’re accepting your new status as a father and your life’s new and exciting dimension…embrace it, you’ll extend your horizons more than any overseas travel can…

You acknowledged the effects likely to result from killing your child when you said: ‘This (abortion) would have been the best long term outcome, if not for the greif associeted with the choice.’

It gives me great joy that your wife will not bear that agony of grief and loss…

Newly married English friends, who’d migrated to Australia befriended another newly married couple…both wanted children…the English couple’s first child arrived and others later followed. The other couple endured tests and surgery to ascertain why they couldn’t.

tbc…

Cont…

Nevertheless the couples remained close friends. One day, the childless-wife received test-results, prepared hubby's dinner, wrote him a note, went downstairs, doused-herself-with-petrol-and-set-herself-alight…dying-a-horrifying-death. Her note stated that test-results confirmed severe internal scarring, preventing both conception and possibility of IVF, as her uterus couldn't successfully implant or carry a child. The cause? An earlier abortion…she wrote how she’d-always-agonized-over-her-lost-child-and-how-she-could-no-longer-bear-her-loss, how-sorry-she-was…she’d-tried-to-forget-but-couldn’t-forgive-herself. She thanked the English family who had shared their lives and given them so much joy.

KETKIDK, her husband never re-married and never recovered…my friends were grief-stricken…agonizing that they’d misread her sadness as only a wish for children.

You’re fooling yourself if you think that there’re no burdens to carry on the loss of a child, however it happens…to have a hand in that child’s death takes that burden into another realm of grief and regret. All suffer grief to varying degrees.

Your friends may’ve had past abortions (you may be assuming that or may know it) however, it’s also not uncommon to later try to compensate for that loss with the birth of another child…

Your final comment is a little convoluted, so I have missed your meaning…but lullaby’s aren’t the only things babies and children love. Mine always like to hear about when Mum, Dad or Grandparents were young…you might re-live fond memories of loved ones yourself in the telling, I know we do. It’s surprising the memories that are recalled and become shared memories, re-told by our children.

If you’re wise, you won’t need the ‘lullaby police’ to lock you in at night…you’ll give this child the same level of commitment you would give a work project…the investment is likely to produce higher returns. Other fathers travel the world and maintain that commitment successfully.

I wish you and both of yours, a bright and happy beginning…to a wonderful future.

Speaking of convoluted…’True believers … would be amazed at how
peaceful the lives of us skeptics can be, once you get over the all the weird stuff that you believe in.’

So you believe in ‘weird stuff’ Yabby? ROFL Enough said : ))