"MJ, you still have not answered the question. Do you think that a 9 year old who is raped, should be forced to have the child?"

Indeed as it was not far from asking you if you thought that 9 year olds should be raped. I did however point out that the alternative to Christian values is increased rapes of 9 year old children. Both are focussing on extremes rather than discussing the fundamental issues. I feel very strongly that a child should not be raped in the first place. In respect of Christian values you don't have to scour the world for a tough ethical dilemma in the form of a pregnant raped 9 year old to see the damage that a lack of respect for humans does.

"Note the catholic priests, JW ministers, anglicans, school teachers and others, who have been caught molesting children! All Christian sinners! So much for your theory of respect for humanity."

As I said people who leave the Church usually don’t appreciate it because they don’t know what it teaches. These aberrations are totally at odds with Christian values which does respect humanity.

"The best thing that has happened in secular society ... no more hush hush, as it was in the bad old days."

That secularism makes things statistically work is offset by the plausible sounding explanation offered by secular spindoctors who claim that this is solely due to more reporting. It is a good way to hide the problem. Having respect for humans and ethics is a much more effectual system. In the Christian society there has also been less hush hush but in that context it is likely to show much better results.

IMHO the role of the church should be to preach to its flock of believers, not to be a political machine.

It does seem somewhat arrogant to tell a group what they should or shouldn’t do and it seems a “humble opinion” seems a strange rationalisation for vilification but at least you aren’t telling God what He should do like many atheists

MJ, you make the fundamental flaw of assuming that morality and ethics are grounded in Chritianity, when in fact they are grounded in biology. The rape statistics for the US, the most Christian of Western countries, are 20 times higher then say Japan, where Christianity has had little influence.

You also highlight the problem of religious dogma. When faced with real moral dilemma as I have asked you to answer, you have no answer. Islam is much the same, caught up in its inability to
interpret things in a modern way, where things like human rights matter. Their dogma is out of date and I suggest that yours is too.

Scout, yup, better and free education in Africa would help enormously, but the problems there are complex. For a start, most Africans live by subsistance agriculture, there is hardly industry, so no workers to tax. If our Govt did not have a tax base, they would struggle to provide services like education too.

There are answers, such as written land titles, micro credit facilities, empowering women with family planning etc, so that they can create their own businesses and economies can be developed.

We make the mistake of viewing Africa through our own eyes, when things are quite different there. Women are often bought in marriage, so become possessions. Rape is extremely common, in many areas its a tool of war. (see today's BBC) Empowering them to survive and prosper despite these handicaps, would make a huge difference.

Yabby - at no point have I mentioned that I was Catholic - in fact I have only mentioned God in the last couple of posts. I was RAPT to see that through what I had written, it was obvious I was Catholic. Guilty as charged!

Something for you to think about. Those of us who believe in God and have faith are like a violin string, firmly anchored at both ends, we know where we came from and we know where we are going and hopefully, from one end to the other, we create some beautiful music of life. Then there are people who choose not to have faith and say "How terrible that this piece of string is held bound at both ends, it must be set free to just "be" and remove the string and put it down. It is adrift, blowing this way and that with every breeze, struggling to find its use and value and losing its way in the process.

Yabby, I sense a deep loneliness in you and not matter what your written words say, a deep hurt. The US surgeon (was that to impress me? didn't work) chose her work and country over you. That must have made you feel very valuable. Also the 'use' you had out of each other's bodies must have also added to that valuable feeling. My heart truly does go out to you that you have been so deceived by this world and all these temporary pleasures.

You also commented that you both had blood tests at the start of the relationship. Big deal. That only proves that at THAT point in time neither of you had anything transmittable. If either of you decided to 'dally'..... what guarantees did you have?

Scout - you comment that 17 years ago you did have sex with a HIV positive person. But my question was, - would you now? Being older and ?wiser? now would you??

Te, some of the biggest critics of Catholics are in fact other Christians! Each convinced of their own brand of religion. I have yet to see other Christians defend the Catholic faith.

Your analogy of a violin string tells me what I had basically expected. Let me tell you, violin strings lead terribly boring lives, don't think for themselves and unquestiongly accept the world as a given, as instructed. You and I are quite different in character. I am an innovator and a thinker Te, not a boring old
violin string :)

From what you say, I can only summize that you are an anxious and emotional type, only content with perceived certainty. That relates to brain chemistry, fair enough. Let me give you the bad news however: nearly every religious person of every conceivable religion is just as convinced of their perceived certainty as you are. Clearly most or all religions are wrong, one or none are correct.
So your chance of being in love with an illusion is extremely high!

I know, it doesent matter, its how religion makes you feel that matters, correct?

In what way have I been deceived by this world? Life is a journey, full of experiences, I have treasured every day so far. If we risk living, we risk dying. Do you drive a car? What about the risk?

My experience with the surgeon is a long story lol. I chose my life here over her. Umm so what? We all have a right to be happy, doing what we are happy doing, living with whoever we are happy with. Where is the problem in that?

Pleasure is part of those life experiences Te. Heaven is here and now so enjoy, it will be too late when the worms get hold of you :)

Deaths of tens-of-thousands-of-women are from abortions – legal-and-illegal and lack of food, medical-care and clean water they are denied in favour of haphazard and costly (often-banned-in-developed-countries-as-dangerous) methods-of-contraceptive …add deaths-of-tens-of-millions-of-babies also.

D&C, Dilation-and-Curettage – your ignorance of medical complications is selective as usual…possible complications of D&C are significant for those suffering them; including haemorrhage, uterine perforation, incomplete evacuation, infection, damage to muscles in the neck of the womb resulting in miscarriage in subsequent pregnancies. These complications are greater in pregnant women due to the pregnant womb being very soft. The risks in non-pregnant women (for-gynaecological-procedures) is much lower.

Nine-year-old-Rosa, was forced to abort her child…not her choice. Again Yabby, if rapists aren't given the death penalty…why should babies?

Your anti-life stance has nothing to do with victims-of-rape as you’ve often identified.

1. Incidence of pregnancy-in-rape is rare…according to your maternal-deaths-from-RU486-comment, you’d dismiss the statistics if they were anti-life. (Even if the woman doesn’t actively fight her aggressor, natural reactions within her body make pregnancy unlikely.)
2. Women presenting to casualty wards after rape are routinely given vaginal douches to reduce risk of STD’s – it’s unlikely sperm could survive the procedure to impregnate the ova.
3. Where a woman was raped and became pregnant. The FIRST thing she would need was support-and-security, not another violation-of-her-person as abortive surgery is. Rapists aren’t given the death penalty…why innocent children? Rosa’s RAPE is tragic, her family and all associated suffered…Adding the killing of her child (and acknowledged serious long-term mental consequences) to her already-fragile-state has to be regarded as questionable, ethically-and-medically.

I was once amongst women questioned on rape…the responses were varied and interesting…anguishing over the victim-baby dilemma. The last woman stated, “I’m adopted and I’ve met my biological mother some time ago.”

She continued, “I was lucky she placed her name on the register and informed family about me, our meeting was mutually welcomed, as a result.
My mother told me she’d been raped at 15. In my interests, she and her parents felt that keeping me wasn't possible, but they could not kill an innocent child because of its father’s wrongs."

(tbc...)

(Cont…)

“I was placed for adoption. I love my life, my husband and children. I’m glad my mother didn’t abort me. I’m glad I mattered to her and I love her.”

Like the Taliban Yabby, you insist that killing innocents is justified by choosing convenience over responsibility…consequences catch up, however they’re avoided.

Billie I notice you’ve ignored my question…affirmation-by-omission?

Suggesting it’s safer to abort than carry a child is nonsense also…you’re killing a child for starters…apart from the other valid arguments Te raised. Is this a plug for business? The ‘status quo’ ‘legalises’ only a tiny percentage of current abortions btw, not your promoted ‘convenience’ killings.

Your ‘wanted’ child argument is fallacy as adoption-waiting-lists in Australia make adoption unrealisable.

Yabby, most children can use google too…

RU486 has caused deaths in Europe and another two in the US a little over a week ago… ‘Its insignificant’…to you, when they’re deaths FROM ABORTION, but not to those affected.

‘HIV…a very difficult virus to transmit, unlike many STDs…it transmits…not through vaginal sex.’

Yabby, check your facts, a minute quantity of blood content is ejaculated during vaginal sex which places women at risk…not men (unless he has a wound)…hence the woman not infecting the male. Another reason why homosexuals are so much at risk.

RE: Uganda’s HIV statistics from 31% to 7-or9% in 5-or-6-years shows abstinence works…you do know what abstinence is right? :)))

Scout, your disrespect for yourself is hardly an advertisement to follow your advice-HIV’s no joke, sorry you find my arguments too-difficult-for-you-to-understand.

Yabby, you need to google some biology data or at least use dictionary definitions…you’re way off beam.

Prevalence of African rapes is indicative that disrespect for women is problematic…contraceptives don’t improve that.

It seems you don’t appreciate much that’s uplifting, like violin music, Yabby…your US surgeon (woman? I’m unimpressed too) has left, perhaps because YOU'RE boring.

Every post contains anti-Catholic vitriol and little else, how boring, off-the-point and unimaginative is that?

While a nation prays and waits for rescue of two Tasmanian men, your arguments against the value of individual-human-life are again completely nullified…