Te the World Health Organisation is a medical organisation, providing independent medical advice, which is their role. Are you claiming that their data on deaths in childbirth is flawed?

Contraceptives are seen by all except a few religious zealots, as part of
normal everyday emergency supplies, along with food, toothpaste, and many other items that people use in refugee camps around the world, to
live their daily lives. You still don’t get it Te, this Catholic obsession with
condoms and other contraceptives, is a religious obsession that is your problem, not that of the rest of the world. Just like toothpaste, nobody is forced to use them, they are simply made available, as they should be.

This talk by the church of what is natural or unnatural, has been cherrypicked
by the church, to suit its religious agenda. Driving cars, flying in planes, growing crops by tilling soil rather then being hunter gatherers as we evolved, are all unnatural. In fact pairbonding and the sex that goes with it evolved so that males would stick around to help the females provide resources for the offspring. So do you now believe in only doing things that are natural? :)

Backyard abortions in countries where abortion is illegal, are done by anyone who claims they know what they are doing, hence the high death rate and the problem in the first place.

RU 486 is working fine in Europe Te. Look at the medical evidence, not the
distorted stuff of the Catholic spin machine. It was that spin machine that claimed that latex rubber condoms would let viruses penetrate the material,
which is utter humbug. If people used more condoms in Africa, they would not have the HIV problem that they have now. The effects of Catholic dogma
are killing people, that’s the sad part of this story

Yabby

“ When 9 year olds who were raped, …”

it shows the consequences of a rejection of the value of human beings. Contrast with the value given to these by the Christian faith. The more you erode a value system that accepts the value of human beings the more there is rapes of 9 year olds. It is shocking and disgusting but that is what people like you catalyse when you attack the Church. You attack the Church for wanting to save the unborn child but doesn’t it mean anything to you that a 9 year old gets raped? You trivialise a rather horrific situation. That the Church didn’t condone the abortion leads to hypothetical thoughts but the rape actually happened.

“No wonder that thinking Catholics have left the church in droves, or openly disgree with some of these weird views.”

Another swipe at Catholics. Those who leave the Church or who openly disagree are ‘thinking Catholics’. Are you saying that if we accept reality we are stupid? I have always found that Catholics who adopt a secular view do so because they don’t know what their own faith teaches. It is a characteristic of thinkers to look at things more deeply. Doing so with the Catholic faith prepares people to answer secular propaganda and not be sucked in.

“You are wrong, I simply have an interest in philosophy and the future of the world, as well as having a strong sense of justice..”

If that were true you could become a Catholic. Your justice doesn't extend to millions of unborn children and millions of Catholics.

”JP … He was also out of touch with the realities of the third world, so thousands and thousands have people have suffered and died, because of his ideology. Your church has also suffered hugely in credibility, because of those obsessions.”

He valued life. He valued humans. He was true to his faith. He travelled extensively and fought for the poor and suffering. The Church gained credibility because of his ethics.

Yabby

”… unlike third world women, where your church wants to force raped 9 year olds to have children.”

They and their children are dying in droves because of your policies. Re: raped 9 year old had an abortion. 9 year olds should not be raped. However things like this are part and parcel of a society that rejects God.

“Yup, Portugal has a high teen pregnancy rate. Due to its Catholic background...”

Are you seriously blaming the Catholic Church which calls for no sex outside of marriage for teenage pregnancy? I strongly suspect if you went way back to a historical time when the Church had genuine influence the teenage pregnancy rate would have virtually non-existent.

”… Thats the real scandal! 200 a day! Yet Meg focuses on the one or two ru 486 cases. Thats real spindoctor stuff to me.”

They are dying because they fail to confine sex to marriage and then do something that you promote – abortions. Yet you try to twist things to blame the Catholic Church who don’t condone either of these things. That is real spindoctor stuff to me. Their children are also dying but you reject their value. That is real spindoctor stuff to me.

Meg

”On the contrary, Portugal has very clear cut figures or your website is publishing lies… ‘family planning services are provided free of charge…contraceptives requiring prescription are free…teenage pregnancy in Portugal is one of the highest in Europe (25 of 1000 adolescents).’ Additionally, ‘there’s at least 29,266 infant deaths overall’ from abortion…undeniable even to someone bent on convincing himself it’s all ok…”

Clearly Portugal is achieving enormous success in “throwing out the old Catholic dogma”.

” Your claim to ‘stick up for little people’, … ‘killing’ the little people…with friends like you, who needs enemies? : (“

and

” …as a direct result of your abortion propaganda …billions of babies and millions of their mothers have died around the world…and continue to do so.”

Here here.

MJ, you still have not answered the question. Do you think that a 9 year old who is raped, should be forced to have the child?

Note the catholic priests, JW ministers, anglicans, school teachers and others, who have been caught molesting children! All Christian sinners! So much for your theory of respect for humanity.

The best thing that has happened in secular society is that we now discuss sex honestly and openly, no more hush hush, as it was in the bad old days. Children are taught that if adults abuse them, they can come foreward, talk about it, they will be believed and the perpetrators prosecuted. All the media publicity about church sex scandals has achieved something. You will be caught, if you interfere with children. Unlike the dark old days where those many
Christian perpetrators relied on cover ups and silence of their victims to protect themselves.

Many married women who have abortions in the third world, die too MJ, so nothing to do with marriage. Legalise abortion and backyard abortions would not happen. No children dying either, you have yet to learn the difference between a fertilised egg and a child. Its been pointed out to you, but perhaps the Catholic spin has told you not to accept the difference, much as they denied the fact that latex is not penetrated by viruses.

Of course I attack the Catholic Church. As the Catholics for choice report highlighted, today's Catholic Church has a huge political agenda, with an enormous spin army to try to politically enforce its dogma on the rest of us. Why should politics not be debated openly and subject to scrutiny? IMHO the role of the church should be to preach to its flock of believers, not to be a political machine.
The Church is mistaken in its claims about universal truths. It has no right to try to inflict them on me or anyone else, but its true believers.

JP confused quantity of life with quality and sustainability of life. His dogma was flawed, that is the real problem

Yabby - if YOU would bother looking at REAL statistics - Uganda has a 6% to less HIV infection rate - down from 31% about 5-6 years ago. why? Because an abstinence program was put forth to the community and they embraced it. People inately know they were created for a higher purpose and when you call them to it, they thrive.
Re your comment about condoms - please educate yourself. The AIDS virus is about 100-1000 times smaller than a sperm and condoms, you may remember, were created to stop sperm, not viruses. Also, again, please check with any doctor - they will tell you that herpes and the human wart virus can be caught from around the genital area. I certainly wouldn't be trusting my sexual health and future fertility to a piece of latex. A condom only covers a few inches. Certainly it will lower the risk, but if you are in the percentage of failure, even if that was only 1%, you would be 100% affected! In experienced hands, the rate of breakage is 1 in 7, in inexperienced hands it is 1 in 5. It would be surprising if you didn't know someone who got pregnant using condoms.

I suspect that you will always need to agree with abortion as then you can sow your wild oats (and I am not talking about being a farmer :-)) willy and nilly (no pun intended) wherever you want and walk away, a few dollars poorer perhaps but at least there wouldn't be a baby, would there??

Facts about Uganda

"Back in 1986, many countries were still struggling to come to terms with the implications of the disease. But the Ugandan government took action and set up an AIDS Control Program in the Ministry of Health. It was one of the first countries to work with the World Health Organization to create a national HIV/AIDS control plan.

The Uganda AIDS Commission was set up under the Office of the President. Involving the President directly was a powerful way to get the message across to the Ugandan people. The strategy was to tackle HIV/AIDS by working with a range of groups in the community – including people living with HIV/AIDS.

Next, the Ugandan government began a widespread campaign to raise awareness about HIV/AIDS and how to prevent it. Prevention was based on the ABC model – Abstinence, Being faithful and Condom use.

A range of activities were promoted, like HIV testing, sex education, counselling, changing behaviours that increased the transmission of the disease and condom distribution."

Source: http://www.worldvision.com.au/onebigvillage/content.asp?topicID=19

Note the use of condoms - something not supported by the catholic church.

Abstinence alone simply doesn't work.

Now has anyone had some thoughts on the best outcome for frozen embryos?

;-)