MJ, this whole problem that we have, was really created when your church came up with its contraception dogma, cherrypicked out a few bits about what was natural law and ignored the ramifications of the rest of natural law. The net result is unneeded suffering for millions.

In natural law, the role of parents is to provide resources to feed the offspring. If they can’t, the offspring die from starvation. Resources is the way nature controls unlimited growth in populations. Potential beings of any species, will always be far
greater then can ever survive.

Most in the West are actually extremely generous, working a good
half of their lives to provide for others, schools, hospitals, welfare, etc. Look at Govt budgets. Look at Govt spending of gdp.

Now your church may see suffering as natural and therefore
acceptable. My personal philosophy is that we evolved to be intelligent enough to be able to avoid all that suffering, so its unacceptable, pointless and extremely sad.

On abortion in WA, when it was made legal, 90% were for,10% against. A similar figure in a referendum in Italy some years ago.

Political power is a force, that’s why I used the word.

Skeptics demand evidence when people make claims. Atheists claim there is no god, but of course you cannot prove a negative.
Nobody can prove that Santa or the tooth fairy don’t really exist for instance.

Socrates pondered about god, as he pondered about lots of things. There is a difference between pondering and following various rituals of a religion with absolute conviction.

I have strung no long bows. The evidence shows that the abortion rate is similar in countries where it is legal or banned.
When women are desperate, perhaps as they can see that they cannot provide for another child, they undertake desperate measures. Women do not risk their lives for no reason you know.
Those desperate women in countries where abortion is banned,
would not die by their tens of thousands, if it was made legal and
proper health care was given to them.

MJ, ok next couple of points: Hitchens clearly has a lot of evidence, which he has offered to present to your church, to show that Mother Teresa was a religious fanatic and not what people made her out to be. As a journalist, that is his job, we need a strong press to keep people honest.

On the one hand you are saying that more resources should be provided to help the poor, yet when people provide them in good faith, you don’t seem concerned about accountability of those funds. I remind you that our press is full of stories of money being
provided to charities, where nobody knows where it goes. Just last week the Weekend Australian published a story questioning where the 50 million$ a year that Hillsong receives goes, asking some very valid
questions. These institutions want tax free status. Why should they be above the law of accountability?

The study on smell was only one of many being done by neuroscience, when it comes to attraction. I just quoted one url of one trial. National Geographic of Feb 2006 discussed it a little more extensively, but you would really have to be interested in brain function, to learn more about it. Suffice to say that the old
dogma of “freewill” is flawed.

You could always start here:

http://staff.washington.edu/chudler/neurok.html

What we are learning is that its all very well to theorise about how one would react when meeting somebody, but in reality when people “fall in love” their behaviour becomes quite irrational, as various evolutionary buttons are pushed, of which they are seldom aware of. When those love struck teenagers come home, trying to explain to their parents why that long haired, dope smoking, tattooed hippie is the greatest thing since sliced bread, reality has been rationalized away by brain chemistry. If during that period
of chemical irrationality they land up marrying the guy, to suggest that they should stay married for life even if he beats them or whatever, is plainly ridiculous! Clearly their will was not so free at all

Yabby

Love the work you are doing here. Did you know that reality is now considered a left wing concept? :-0

I find it edifying that none of the anti-choice posters have had either the courtesy or the courage to respond to our questions yet demand we answer theirs - which we have.

At first I thought it was just rudeness on their part given their vitriolic ad hominen attacks, but I think it is something deeper than that.

People who believe in reason over religion tend to think more broadly on life and living. We are not afraid to answer ethical questions. We have demonstrated that those who blindly and unquestioningly follow religious dogma are unable to think around moral and ethical conundrums such as 'raped and pregnant nine year old' and 'unwanted embryos'.

It is also evident that these same posters want to 'debate' (I don't really think of personal slurs and demands as true debate) only on their terms with no regard to the questions of others. I guess this is another consequence of blindly following formal religion.

My conclusion, therefore, is that formal religion is a dead end for the intellect of the individual, politics, science. We cannot progress as a species while we remain in thrall to a primitive doctrine that holds little relevance to the lives of people in the 21st century.

Scout, many thanks for your comments. I read Cardinal Pell’s
comments this week, mentioning Pagan rituals of burning animals. Well of course the Xtian bible is full of those! I also wonder if Cardinal Pell pondered about the rituals performed by Opus Dei, which are in the news right now. They represent the conservative end of the Catholic faith. It’s a very secretive organisation, said to be worth billions of $, whose members wear the cilice, a spiked chain to inflict pain on themselves, who also whip themselves and have other cult like tendencies.

http://www.odan.org/

Perhaps we should insist that all politicians, as well as divulging their financial interests, divulge their religious interests. If my MP
is into whipping themselves or wearing spiked chains in the name
of Jesus, I really think that I should know about that before voting!

I do however see hope for the future. People are a product of their environment and their genes. I’ve spoken to a few JWs who eventually quit, the true believers can’t be blamed for everything. These people were often brainwashed from childhood,
they were discouraged from associating with people who thought unlike they did. Not all were born with an inquisitive mind, some just cling to their violin string to cope.

The internet poses great hope for humanity! They will come here to argue about the evils of contraception and abortion, but people like you and I will at least get them thinking in different directions.

My ex JW friends tell me that it’s a gradual process. Once exposed to other ways of thinking, over time these things add up,
until one day, all this accumulated stuff adds up, they finally realize that they have been hoodwinked.

Slowly they realize that all the slogans about empty lives etc, are
pretty much no more then religious propaganda. They even realize that sex is quite normal and natural too, no need for all those hang-ups :) Life is full of purpose, if you decide what your purpose is, without religious interference.

Pain does not need to be blessed, as Opus Dei think!

Yabby/Scout
Unlike both of you, those of us like Meg1 and mjpb, we actually have a life outside of our computers :-)) and are out there in the real world helping young mums and expectant women in crisis. So your comment re not responding to questions is a time issue. I will be back in front of the screen with more time next week - trust me, you WILL have answers to your questions. Sadly though, neither of you ever like what your hear/read. Cheers, Te :-)

Te, no doubt you are busy, with all that praying, going to mass
and then to confession, to tell the priest about any impure
thoughts that you may have had :)

For a while I thought that perhaps you had joined Opus Dei
and were busy perhaps whipping yourself of wearing your spikey
chain :) it all sounds pretty kinky to me lol.