MJ, if people like you and Meg, who are obsessed with the abortion rate, want it reduced, Holland has shown how to do it. Nope its not religion, few Dutch youth bother with it, just a few oldies.
http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/mens-maatschappij/leefsituatie/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2004/2004-1519-wm.htm

For abortion rates to come down alot, you need both good contraception plus good education, its the combination that matters.
Here is the difference between Holland and Britain.

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm

and http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend.htm

The delay in Korea is easily explained, people in Asia are coy in talking about sex, its a cultural thing.

The Economist regularly quotes GMI figures, clearly they are better informed then either MJ or Meg:) Yup Australia was not quoted, the report was short, there are 200 countries. Did you want an epistle?

What details about America would you like? Can't you google?

Re tolerance, I don't have a problems with Buddhists or Hare Krishnas, only with those who want to force me by law to live by their religion. If Chrisitians were tolerant, they would live their lives by their religion and leave the rest of us to live ours. That is clearly beyond you. So the intolerant are easy to identify.
Most Xtians actually accept that today, just a few fanatical Catholics and Muslims don't.

Meg, tolerance is about choice in your life, not dictating how others should live their lives, as your church does. I believe in giving women worldwide a choice, you want to force your dogma on them through legislation if possible, thats where we differ. If you feel that I am wrong in preaching sustainability, feel free to tell me why I am wrong.

I was so intrigued that Meg1's response to me was to casually refer to Hansard. I remember that she has said that she has children, and has worked with women overseas. On other forums she displays details of how dairy deregulation was first discussed, is keenly aware of sugar industry and also has an interest in IR. I started to wonder whether Meg1 could be a federal politician. The only one that fit the bill voted for RU486 to be controlled by the Therapeutic Goods Administration.

Yabby, tolerance is allowing others to express opinions or beliefs without being unjustifiably attacked because you may have unresolved issues or contrary opinions of your own…

You say you give women a choice, but argue that abortion is desirable to reduce the population of the world … especially African babies it seems, so that they won’t be tempted to eat chimps or bonobos…

…i.e., you promote abortion as the means to YOUR end VERSION of a ‘sustainable’ world … women should have X number of babies? Or none…? In your own version of “Animal Farm”?

‘you want to force your dogma on them through legislation if possible, thats where we differ.’

Yabby, you want to force your agenda on others world-wide, ‘through legislation if possible’, to the extent that you promote killing of babies because you see them as lesser value than animals…

‘If you feel that I am wrong in preaching sustainability, feel free to tell me why I am wrong.’

My quote: ‘You PREACH ‘choice’ Yabby, but demonstrate your own brand of tyranny, under the guise of ‘sustainability’…with a blighted bias on everything Catholic…no one’s forcing you to practice Catholicism BTW.’

I did NOT state that you were WRONG in preaching true sustainability, which includes humans too btw, yes there’s ample space and food for all…the African babies also…but that you DEMONSTRATE ‘your own brand of TYRANNY, under the GUISE of ‘sustainability’…

…you argue for preferred animals (and you?) to be protected…‘sustained’…but for the human population to be culled by abortion…and expect others shouldn’t find that repulsive?

It seems there is little room for humans in your tolerance zone…

‘published figures have varied markedly during the recent abortion debate (check Hansard). Lies, damned lies and statistics…being an academic doesn’t eliminate the possibility of statistics being manipulated to suit the argument.’

…billie, my reference was quite specific, do you think Hansard is only read by politicians?

Stick to your day job billie, you aren’t detective material…

I’m not THE Federal Politician you refer to, whomever that may be, nor am I a Federal Politician at all.

(tbc...)

(Cont…)

Is it only Federal Politicians who have children these days? …or have worked with women…? (…don’t recall what references you refer to there that are specific to Federal Politicians…)

RE: other issues mentioned, you’ve left out many other areas of interest to me also…I read, meet and speak to lots of others and google too, billie…and I take a keen interest in people and their interests or concerns.

Does that make me politician material?

You wouldn’t think so by looking at most of those occupying the parliaments around the country…would you?

I heard one party ‘hack’ describe potential candidates as ‘anyone from the Centrelink line who will put up their hand when they’re told to’…doesn’t sound like me, billie, I prefer to have my say based on my own well-founded beliefs and opinions.

…but thanks for the ‘compliment’?, I think?

Here’s something else I support…the Eureka Blockade, implemented yesterday…10th April, 2006:

“We demand today Legislation to be put in place to set viable sustainable rates for Owner Operators in the following industries:
• The Australian Interstate Long Distance, Local and Intrastate Transport Industry
• The Australian Marines & Fisheries Industries
• The Australian Farming Industries Incorporating, Dairy, Beef, Sheep, Pork, Egg, Fruit, Vegetable & Grain (ALL INDUSTRIES)
• We also demand the overturning of the Industrial Relations Reform recently implemented to deregulate our Australian workforce.

No longer will we sit back and let our future be ruled by this government, who do not listen to the people and who act to benefit the multinationals that place large amounts of funds into their party coffers at the Australian Industries’ expense.”

I applaud those responsible for this Blockade…but no billie, it’s not me either.

Meg, tolerance means letting others make decisions about their lives, free from religious manipulation. Tolerance means attacking others who try to deny them those rights, as say the Catholic Church does.

You are free to be a Catholic, free to think your pope is wonderfull,
free to cross your legs in the name of religion as you please, but don't expect others to do the same, just because you think its a good idea.

Abortion in the first tremester should be a womans choice and right.
You have put forward no good reason that it should not be, except emotively flawed, semantically miscoloured dogma. Get used to it,
you think what your pope thinks matters, nobody is forcing you or any other catholic to have an abortion. Get used to it, others don't think like you, so stop trying to deny them their rights.
Your pope just expressed his opinion, its no more valid then the opinion of anyone else.

I have never, anywhere, suggested that any woman should be forced to have an abortion. Clearly there is an unmet need in Africa, where women want better family planning methods. They want the same as women in the West have. They should be given that choice!

If African women were given that choice, the result would be much as elsewhere. Women would choose to have smaller families. They could then provide better nutrition and care to the kids they do have. They could give those kids a better education then they receive now.
Those kids would then have a better future then they have now.
The environment would benefit too, as the population explosion threat would be taken off Africa. Rather then eat chimps, they could be developed into a tourism industry etc.

Yes I preach choice, women want that choice, why not give them that choice?

You may well continue your Catholic inspired rant about holy sperms etc, personally I prefer to focus on thinking, feeling people.
I don't care if the Catholic Church thinks that wasting sperms as Onan did is a major crime.

“Bin Laden encourages killing of innocents, more akin to your comments, not mine…”
LOL Well put.

Yabby,

“… its not religion, few Dutch youth bother with it…”

Not going to Church regularly doesn’t mean that the influence from traditionally having a high proportion of Catholics isn’t responsible.

"For abortion rates to come down alot, you need both good contraception plus good education, its the combination that matters.
Here is the difference between Holland and Britain."

The links don’t mention any influence of a tradition of Catholicism but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t there.

Your links establish that in Holland there is no mandatory national sex education but nearly all secondary schools provide it and over half of primary schools provide it. In Britain they don’t institutionally sex educate them before 10 and compulsorily educate in secondary school even if a survey of 700 14 to 15 year old English youths found that they didn’t like the sex education in schools including complaints that there was too much focus on the mechanics of sex and contraception rather than on emotions. Are you saying sex education is needed younger?

“The delay in Korea is easily explained, people in Asia are coy in talking about sex, its a cultural thing.”

Delay!? That was their smoke screen because nothing useful to them happened for so long. The abortion rate is 20%!

” Did you want an epistle?”
No just more candour and less cherry picking.