…billie, your ‘statistics’ are easy to dispute and published figures have varied markedly during the recent abortion debate (check Hansard). Lies, damned lies and statistics…being an academic doesn’t eliminate the possibility of statistics being manipulated to suit the argument.

Your figures for 30 bed ward…many interpretations can be made, spontaneous abortions (mis-carriage) are just one point of contention.

I’ve also been actively involved for many years, at local level, State/Federal level. Your statistics are dubious at best and inaccurate at worst…

Figures on abortions in 1970’s were 1 abortion for every four live births…rising to around one abortion for every three live births (2005), with abortions now more freely accessible. … Dispels the ‘theory’ that abortion, freely available will educate women to be more reproductively aware, responsible…or more in control of themselves or their partners, doesn’t it?

Relevant statistics on pregnancy-related deaths or ‘botched’ abortions do not back up your spurious claims either.

Abortion was easily accessible in the 1970’s (‘risk to mother’s health’) in most public hospitals and some private doctors. Abortion statistics as indicators of women’s health in Australia, indicate a serious health crisis – curious that those women continue to ‘risk’ their lives again and again…why do you think that is, if they’re so enlightened regarding sexuality?

Your claim ‘many women simply disappeared – presumably dead from botched abortions.’…is mischievious and deceitful in the extreme, billie.

Provide evidence to back the statement up. If every missing woman is assumed dead from a botched abortion, police wouldn’t be looking for more missing women annually…with abortion more accessible.

With abortion legalized, statistics prove it becomes far more prevalent…just another form of contraceptive – what is legal becomes 'right' for many and therefore 'acceptable'… Then tragic consequences force the wheel to turn full circle…as society deals with the aftermath…individually and collectively.

Osama Bin Laden preached terrorism over 30 years ago too…articles warned of his terrorist activities then…should that give his argument more credibility too?

Many medical professionals disparaged two WA doctor’s cure-cause for stomach ulcers (1985)…but world acclaim in 2005 for those same doctors forced acknowledgement!

(tbc…)

(Cont…)

Jo Wainer’s credentials don’t guarantee validity of content…or ability to make moral-ethical judgments.

I re-iterate: ’I don’t disregard arguments based on the writers ‘credentials’ but on the validity or otherwise of its content.’

You accused pro-lifers of appearing ‘more concerned about controlling women than…about women's and children's welfare.’

Where’s your evidence? Again…criticism’s easy, how do you help?’

I’m also curious to hear your response as to why information could not be passed through the generations as you allege?

Yabby - the Catholic Church doesn’t dictate policy to the Dutch government on contraception or abortion then…despite the large Catholic population? Another contradiction…?

‘There was a myth that the Church was untouchable’

Only in your dreams Yabby…

Your statistics are vague, convoluted…then directly contradictory…

‘If you want less abortions, provide better contraception.’

Australian statistics completely disprove your argument…abortions in Australia have gone from one abortion in four live births in the ‘70’s to one abortion in three live births in 2005…with freely available contraception.

You suggest lower mortality rates with legalised abortions, ignoring that abortion is ALWAYS LETHAL FOR THE BABIES involved…statistically you’re wrong again...maternal deaths WILL increase with RU486 - already proven.

RE ‘Catholic abstinence story’ Babies aren’t a ‘mistake’ with NaturalFamilyPlanning, Yabby, Catholics plan to have families too, not difficult to comprehend, surely.

Millions of Catholic priests successfully follow the teachings of Christ…you need to stop obsessing on a few, your generalisations are inaccurate and unhealthy.

‘those women would not die, simple as that’

…so now you’re fantasizing, ‘those women’ could live forever? We all die, Yabby. You obviously can’t produce supporting evidence here...

You should refrain from fabricated statistics…perhaps it’s Dutch Catholics following Church teachings who don’t have pre-marital sex, use contraception or abort their babies who are affecting your selective statistics.

Judging from significant Dutch-Catholic populations, one could assume a significant Church influence there…again discrediting your contrary arguments.

Yabby, the Catholic Church has ‘focused’ on relieving human suffering from the time of Christ…their focus is trying to alleviate it, while you appear determined to create mischief and misinformation which solves nothing, then offer no practical help yourself.

One of the amusing things about the pious and religious fanatics,is how they can keep kidding themselves. Reality does not go away, because we close our eyes and wish it would!

Meg, stop kidding yourself about Holland. Fact is that less then 10% of Catholics even bother to turn up in church once a week. Of those few who do, most are over 50, so too old to worry about contraception or abortion. As elsewhere, most Dutch Catholics disagree with the Vatican about contraception, abortion etc.

But lets look at a more pious nation then Holland. The US. The more they go to church, the more they vote for George Bush! Thats a huge worry in itself!

Fact is that most US Catholics ignore church teachings on contraception and the abortion rate for catholics is only slightly lower then for others. So even within the Catholic Church and its followers, your views are regarded as nonsense.
http://www.catholicity.com/mccloskey/articles/state_of_the_church_2006.html

Australia's problem with abortion is still one of student education not being good enough. Pious parents will complain when their little darlings are exposed to being shown how to put a condom on a penis, so it doesent happen in schools. Dutch parents are far more pragmatic, so their abortion rate is lower.

In Holland, abortion has not become far more prevelant. Good education works, even if it upsets a few doting parents.

Meg, in Holland much of the large Catholic population is in name only, much like here. People fill out surveys and tick Catholic in the box under religion, but give it little thought after that, its simply what they were born as. I used to do that too, until I became aware of how much damage religious fanatics do to our way of life and to peoples rights.

If we look around, what % of the population take religion seriously to any extent? Perhaps 10-20%, no more, the rest have other interests. I still think there is a genetic component there as the trend seems similar around the world, especially as people become more educated.

Yabby, you rail against the Catholic Church, yet google away referencing every post with comments about it…arguing you know the minds of practicing and non-practicing Catholics world-wide (impossible but most amusing :) )…

…one thing’s apparent…you should face your unresolved ‘issues’ … and accept the inevitable conclusions.

‘Reality does not go away, because we close our eyes and wish it would!’

For some, failing to live by-or-up-to, rules of the Catholic Church creates an obsession to denigrate and tear down all things Catholic…rather than face reality and acknowledge that the rules apply equally…providing guidelines for life…like guideposts along the highway, showing where dangers, slippery roads, detours, freeways and rugged roads are…it’s up to us to ‘drive’ responsibly to our destination, without harming others along the way.

I reject your demands which disclaim the rights and responsibilities of parents and your anti-religious and political fanaticism and bias...

You preach ‘choice’ but would allow none but your despotic and contradictory agenda.

Received on e-mail:

A University professor … challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil.
And, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define
who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not respond to the professor's hypothetical
definition…The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the
students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, Professor?" "Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been
cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the
laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

(tbc)

(Cont…)

Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy,
and heat’s what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute
zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and
incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We’ve
created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat." The student
continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you’re wrong sir, darkness doesn’t exist
either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but
not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into
many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot
measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness
and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure
the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by
man to describe what happens when there's no light present." Finally the
young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said.
We see it everyday. It's in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man.
It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does
not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like
darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of
God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes
when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name -- Albert Einstein

I’m in good company…however small the percentage of population!

Meg, your company is less good then you think! Einstein was not a Christian and certainly not a Catholic. But Osama bin Laden is another religious fanatic, so if you think thats good company, so be it :)

The minds of many Catholics can be evidenced by their deeds. Those deeds can be evidenced by statistics. That might be a pain in the butt for many of the devoutly religious, but the evidence does not go away, when you wish it would.

Yup I preach "choice", not religious tyranny, as your church tries to inflict on others.

The "rules" that you follow, mean as much to me as those who follow the rules of Santa or the rules of the Easter Bunny. If they keep you happy, its your choice, but don't inflinct that choice on others.

I preach tolerance, but I also preach intolerance of the intolerant,
as your religion has shown to be.

IMHO, if Meg was born in Iraq, she would most likely be a devout little Muslim, clearly you need religion and its rules to cope with life. Fair enough, so do your thing, but let the rest of us do our thing.

I preach living sustainably, so that this planet is around for future generations for many species, not just anthropocentrism.

I preach doing good for others, as we all benefit, its natural and its sustainable.

I preach taking note of the laws of nature, rather then the laws of the pope, for to me he has no more relevance then the Easter bunny,
although at least the Easter bunny celebrates the joys of yummy
chocolate :) The pope seems more focussed on denying people their
human rights.