(Cont…)

‘even though I was born a Catholic’

No-one’s ‘born’ Catholic, Yabby – you’re baptized Catholic…I guessed that one already from your posts…as I’ve said before, some who fail to keep rules feel bound to justify their actions by denying or trying to discredit those rules…

Instead Christ asks for repentance and gently lifts us up to try again…we all stumble, He simply asks us to try again…

As I’ve stated, I’m well aware of pre-abortion anguish, and lifetimes of post-abortion trauma…that’s why I argue against it…to protect both life and welfare, of mother and baby.

…I deplore the ACT and its devastating consequences for mother and child…I don’t condemn mother. I’m neither judge nor jury and she has no reason to seek my forgiveness…

Judgment is God’s - it’s His forgiveness that’s relevant.

‘thousands are dying, not the rich, but the poor.’

Yabby, corrupt governments and corporations are responsible for manipulating these people and denying them a living wage…not the Catholic Church.

Additionally…droughts, floods, wars and unrest mean farmlands cannot be planted, maintained, or are destroyed…

…compounding the effects of corruption and poverty…millions die DESPITE best efforts of the Catholic Church and other Churches and aid agencies…

‘Too bad if those women suffer, the Church said its ok’

I find your bigotry disgusting too, Yabby, I put actions with words and beliefs, helping in practical ways. Human life’s God-given and sacred from Conception to natural death…I care for and speak for ALL human life…in many ways.

Another contradiction - you claim the Catholic Church exercises ‘mob rule’ and then the ‘papa’ uses tyrannical, political pressure to influence government and rule his subservient followers…which is it?

Which species are you ashamed of? Those who abort their defenceless unborn or bonobos and chimps who still instinctively nurture and protect?

Billie...Jo Wainer’s abortion-statistics are inaccurate…and maternal-death statistics, dubious at best. Damned lies and statistics…!

Perhaps the 30-bed-ward was for spontaneous (mis-carriages) AND deliberate abortions?

Many women STILL disappear…refer ‘missing persons?’

RE: ‘passing information between the generations’…were they mute?

RE: Women’s and children’s welfare…criticism’s easy, how do you help?

Meg1, Jo Wainer is a senior lecturer in Medicine at Monash University so I think her figures are accurate and she was actively involved in the field 35 years ago so she should be believed.

MJ, all these things have been analysed in a huge way around the world. The Dutch story is easy to explain, free availability of
good contraception to anyone. If you want less abortions, provide
better and cheaper contraception methods, along with better education.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/4/gr060407.html

Their website has a huge amount of data on this topic.

The Catholic Church has always made it a point to try to influence politics to the best of its ability, where it operates. There was a myth that the Church was untouchable, luckily that is finally breaking down.

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/conflictinperu.html

Rwanda is 65% Catholic. Central Africa has a high Catholic population. Northern Africa is Muslim.

The evidence from around the world is clear. Women will have abortions, legal or not. Many more will die, if its illegal.
If you want less abortions, provide better contraception.

The Catholic abstinance story is a dismal failure in practise,
not even Catholic priests manage to abide by that one.

Meg, if the Catholic Church didn't try to have abortion-contraception banned everywhere as it does, then those women would not die, simple as that. Women in Holland don't die needlessly, the abortion rate is also low. Perhaps you could learn something from them.

Forget the Christ stuff, time to focus on people and their suffering, the rest of what you believe is no more then dogma, to me as valid as the Santa story.

Yabby,

“ The Dutch story is easy to explain..”

That explanation doesn’t work. Contraceptives are used in the UK but their abortion rate is much higher.

” Their website has a huge amount of data on this topic.”

Certainly and carefully selected data. The Planned Parenthood’s Alan Guttmacher Institute’s web page that you quoted also contains a lot of opinion. Further, it is all very nice to put the label “it takes time” on a graph where abortion rates increase in direct proportion to an increase in contraception use for two decades and then decline. However, they didn’t consider that it takes time in the Soviet Union when the trend suited them.

If you think the article writers were trying to give an objective account then why don’t they put Korean stats in with the list of countries. Obviously they had those stats as they cited Korea when it suited them. Is it because that a 40 year period of increasing contraceptive use achieving a whopping 80% contraceptive rate is associated with a 20% abortion rate which is the original rate before contraceptive use was even 10%?

Isn’t it interesting that the European countries that formed the old ‘Christendom’ have retained low abortion rates compared with South American countries, America or China (25.1), Mongolia (25.9), Armenia (35.4), or Turkey (25).

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/conflictinperu.html

This URL that you cite again confirms that rather than colluding with South American governments the Church is in conflict with them.

“Rwanda is 65% Catholic.”

And is one out of 55 African countries.

“Central Africa has a high Catholic population.”

And is a second out of 55 African countries.

“ Northern Africa is Muslim.”

I expect that you will find that most Africans are either Muslim or following their traditional religious beliefs

” If you want less abortions, provide better contraception.”

Converting to Christianity would be much more effective.

”The Catholic abstinance story is a dismal failure in practise, not even Catholic priests manage to abide by that one.”

Actually it is a requirement for those wanting to enter priesthood.

I'm a primary school teacher who has worked in over a dozen different schools (public and private) in three different cities. The Catholic education system, I must say, provides a much better, safer and more fulfilling environment for children. The additional key learning area of Religion that is either not offered, or done so in a token manner in public schools, provides children with a spiritual outlet that helps them to deal with traumatic events in their lives, such as illnesses and deaths in the family.

These children are more adjusted, emotionally. The level of education throughout all subjects is so much better. Why? Because non-government schools have greater power to expel bullies who continually disrupt classes and restrict others from their right to learn. In the public system a kid basically has to burn down a school and murder a couple of teachers before being expelled.

This year I'm doing relief teaching, so I get a good mix of schools and year levels. But I must admit I really dislike working in public schools because I know my day will consist of breaking up fights and copping insults from disrespectful children, all the while the students who actually have a desire to learn, cannot, due to the others.

Catholic schools are connected to the local parish in their community, which provides for needy people through services such as St Vincent de Paul. The church welcomes all citizens and is supportive and compassionate.

The Catholic church teaches us to live a life that isn't dependent on the kinds of monetary and material things that lead to greed and corruption. It teaches that personal fulfillment comes through "putting others first", a quality lacking in the "Me" generation.

The Catholic church of today supports all people and, while it does frown upon abortion, it certainly doesn't condemn those who have gone through with one. Yes, the church is judgmental – Jesus is depicted in the Bible as such, but there's a definite difference between judgment and condemnation. Pope John Paul 2 spent his life representing this difference.

MJ, the difference in abortion rates between England and Holland has long been explained, there is a huge difference in school sex education, that also explains the low teenage pregnancy rates in Holland. Perhaps you are unaware as to what a pragmatic and liberal society exists in Holland. Gay marriages are accepted, euthanasia is accepted, sex is considered natural and normal, no big religious hangups about it. Clearly you have never been to Amsterdam :)

Abortion rates are low in Europe as contraception has been freely available for decades, its a pragmatic attitude to life and its problems. I lived there in the 70s and girls were on the pill if they were in a relationship, religion did not even come into the discussion.

The Americans are the most religious Western country of all and what we see is that in the bible belt, where school sex education is least given and abstinance is suggested, teen pregnancy and abortion rates are higher because of it. So much for Christianity being a solution, so far its been a dismal failure at preventing people from having sex or reducing the abortion rate.

You might not like what the GMI publishes, you might quibble on the edges about a couple of stats, but the fundamentals of what they are saying are correct and can be seen in worldwide trends.

Central Africa as a region, including a number of countries there, has a high Catholic population. Countries like the Congo, Uganda,
Kenya, Tanzania etc.

Abstinance might be a requirement for the priesthood, perhaps that explains why nobody bothers to become a priest in Australia anymore. It also doesent mean that priests keep their vows either. Last I read about a third of them were thought to be gay.