”Re tolerance, I don't have a problems with Buddhists or Hare Krishnas, only with those who want to force me by law to live by their religion.”

I presume you mean laws based on Christian principles. I’m sure in both religions you cite if they have the numbers they would do so. This is hard to imagine with Hare Krishnas but Buddhists countries have adopted Buddhist laws and if you lived there you would be forced to act accordingly. Examples include Tibet and Thailand.

“ So the intolerant are easy to identify.”

Particularly when they are so intolerant they feel the need to make excuses for their behaviour as you did in a previous post.

“Meg, tolerance means letting others make decisions about their lives, free from religious manipulation.”

No. Tolerance means recognizing and respecting the beliefs and practices of others. This includes Catholicism. You display no respect whatsoever. I understand that you have unresolved issues and contrary opinions but that doesn’t obliterate the fact that you are extremely intolerant.

mjbp says that Yabby is intolerant and that abortion is condemned by all Christian churches.

The views of the Uniting Church in Australia can be found at http://assembly.uca.org.au/news/mediareleases/2005/release030205.htm. The press release can be summarised as while all human life is sacred because we live in a broken world we have to recognise that abortion occurs and support women in the decision they make - not judge them.

I agree with the sentiments expressed in the press release.

MJ, sadly the effects of the policies of the Catholic Church, kill far more women in the third world every year, then bin Laden ever killed.

As the Dutch article highlights, contraception among young people in Holland is the highest in the world, doesent sound much like Catholic policy to me lol. What the Dutch have shown is that with a pragmatic curriculum and easy availability, abortion rates will be
quite low, as there is no need for them. But keep grasping at straws to come up with a reason for the situation in Holland, as straws is all you have.

No 20% in Korea, 20 per thousand women, which is much better then the abortion rate in the highly Catholic Philipines, where tens of thousands of women are hospitalised due to botched backyard abortions. I've yet to look up as to how many of them die, due to flawed Catholic policy.

I meant Catholic policies. No other Christian religion is as political as the Catholic Church and tries to deny people people
their human rights, as the Catholic Church does. It was not so long ago when the last pope was still trying to stop Catholic lawyers from assisting even non Catholics with their divorce procedures!
If the Catholic Church had its way, even divorce would be illegal.

I am intolerant of one thing, that is intolerance. I respect your right to be a Catholic or a Hare Krishna, but I don't respect what you believe. Respect is earned, not given for no reason.

So be a Catholic, swing from your chaneliers by your testicles, its none of my business, but when you try to deny others their rights as you have your rights, then I will protest loudly, especially when they are third world poor people who don't have the luxury of defending themselves or even telling you what they think. When religious or political power are misused, I get cranky and fair enough.

Human rights come before religious dogma in our world these days.
Religions can't just do as they please any more, as they used to.

‘Tolerance means attacking others’

Yabby, you attempt to re-write the English language to suit yourself…e.g., tremester not trimester – 26-27 weeks instead of 12-14 weeks…it doesn’t validate your attempts.

Tolerance - the quality of respecting others’ beliefs, practices,...; the capacity to endure something, as pain, hardship, ...

Tolerance NEVER means ATTACKING others…it’s an invalid interpretation under any circumstances.

Your latest post makes little sense and shows little valid reasoning once again.

You describe what you’re producing - ‘emotively flawed, semantically miscoloured dogma’… preached about chimps and bonobos…’ nobody is forcing you or any other’…to eat a chimp or bonobo... ‘Get used to it, others don't think like you, so stop trying to deny them their rights.’

Appropriate words for yourself, when mirrored back…aren't they Yabby?

No one’s forcing you to practice Catholicism Yabby…

...your own posts verify choice and free will is practiced by Catholics.

You claim many are Catholic in name only…no one chains them to an altar to force them to practice their faith…clearly there’s choice and free will, despite your contradictory and mischievous claims.

‘You may well continue your Catholic inspired rant about holy sperms etc, personally I prefer to focus on thinking, feeling people.’

Yabby, I haven’t raised the ‘issue’ of sperm to my recollection.

You’ve consistently focused on sperm(s), anti-Catholic vitriol, chimps, bonobos and Darwinism…humans (especially babies…African babies) have trailed far behind in associated value…little positive focus on people at all, contrary to your claims.

‘I have never, anywhere, suggested that any woman should be forced to have an abortion.’

You claim almost every virtue’s meaning contains ‘attack’ clauses Yabby, yet you’re very sensitive to others right-of-reply…

...once again you’ve misrepresented my statements…re-posted again here…

‘You say you give women a choice, but argue that abortion is DESIRABLE to reduce the population of the world … especially African babies it seems, so that they won’t be tempted to eat chimps or bonobos…

…i.e., you PROMOTE abortion as the means to YOUR end VERSION of a ‘sustainable’ world … women should have X number of babies? Or none…? In your own version of “Animal Farm”?

(tbc...)

(Cont...)

‘you want to FORCE your dogma on them through legislation if possible, thats where we differ.’

Yabby, YOU want to force your agenda on others world-wide, ‘through legislation if possible’, ...you promote killing of babies because you see them as lesser value than animals…’

All of the statements are valid summaries from your posts…

Clearly your paranoia with Catholics is specific, you claim it alone seeks to argue the case for abortion…I regularly see material from many other religious groups, including the Jehovah’s Witnesses who go door-to-door to preach their beliefs…yet, no vitriol directed there, Yabby.

You seem incapable of posting without reference to any aspect of the Catholic Church, sperm or Darwenism…based on your postings to date.

‘sadly the effects of the policies of the Catholic Church, kill far more women in the third world every year, then bin Laden ever killed.’

The teachings of the Catholic Church protect and care for human life, including women…your hypocrisy knows no bounds, you argue for protection of chimps above lives of African babies who MAY eat them…then preface your misinformation on the third world with ‘SADLY’…

…scary how you defend Bin Laden…you keep ending up on the same side…

You promote abortion then argue you are against killing ‘women’…half of the babies are female…abortion kills them Yabby!

You clearly have issues with the Catholic Church and I sincerely hope you are able to resolve them and gain some peace.

…billie, Dr Dean Drayton’s Media Release (Feb, 2005) may well be superseded by now or could be at any time … however, that is why MANY Christian Churches exist, not just one – because one point(s) of Christ’s teachings became too difficult for a particular group or their interpretations differed and they eventually broke away…free will again, you see.

You collect media releases on abortion from 2005? Watch the women going in and out of the abortion clinic…and watch them spoken to by pro-lifers…live in Melbourne.

Do you work at an abortion clinic? or just spend a lot of time there?

A Blessed, Safe and Happy Easter to all…

Meg, clearly my posts are passing over your head, for if I present
a number of arguments from various perspectives in one post, they become one confusion in your mind. So I will try to simplify things, so that even you can understand them.

Perhaps its time that third world women have the right to decide how many babies that they want to raise and have the same facilities and choices as first world women do. It should not be Meg's business, the popes business, but their business. Religious dogma should not interfere with their business. They should not need to die by the hundreds of thousands, because of the effects of religious dogma,
as is happening now. That is one issue.

Sustainability is a separate issue. If we do not live sustainably on this planet, then there will be no future humanity, but thats way above your head it seems, so no point me discussing it further with you, even though most kids can understand the point.

The holy sperms of Onan is the biblical bit that your church uses to justify its contraception policy. Religions are meant to be based on holy books remember and thats the critical bit for Catholics. Just read what your own church writes on contraception.

The so called good intentions of the Catholic Church really don't matter, if the effect is that they kill people. People often have good intentions, but the effects of what they do can be serious. In this case its very serious, hundreds of thousands of people are dying every year.
Those deaths could stop tomorrow, if those women had the same choices as they have here in Australia and in other Western countries. So your church can be blamed for those deaths.

I won't write any more in one post, it might only confuse you further.