”You are saying that if people die, who don't follow Catholic dogma, well so be it. The effect is much the same. I think that is shamefull.”

Are you being deliberately obtuse? We discussed this before and I called it “tragic” not “so be it”. I am simply saying that it is inappropriate to blame the Catholic Church for abortion. If you blamed Catholic dogma for homosexuality, contraception, Buddhism or Atheism it would be equally ridiculous and I would be arguing with you. You are blaming Catholicism for abortion which it opposes.

”What we know is that desparate women do desparate things, if they are legal or not.”

The reality is that blaming the Catholic Church is a smokescreen to hide the dirty secret of pro-abortionists. We say that abortion is wrong because children are killed. Pro-abortionists say that abortion is good because it helps women. However many women are killed or injured by abortion. In third world countries this is particularly true with back yard abortions.

“We know that if better family planning, ie contraception and abortion under proper medical conditions was made available…”

What is available? Legal or affordable or available for some other reason? Remember the woman who made a mistake using the available contraception and chose a back yard abortion. Why she didn’t get a legal abortion is anyone’s guess but there are many possibilities. For example cost, convenience, lack of knowledge of the dangers of illegal abortions, or the attitude of doctors. We are dealing with real people many of whom are poor. About the only thing that would help them overnight is religious conversion not some hot air. Stop oversimplifying to cover up the dirty secret that you advocate something that takes the lives of thousands of women.

”…. if other countries adopted similar methods and laws as the Dutch…”

Swedes did it first and have many more abortions. The laws and sex education clearly aren’t the explanation. Chances are the thing preventing abortions for the Dutch is their attitude toward abortion which probably derives from their history of Catholicism.

Te, it is quite common for people to go into complete denial, when faced with reality. Clearly you are human :)

Perhaps you should reread your embryology books, forget the maternal engulfment and ask yourself what actually constitutes a person. We can give you a pigs heart, we can replace your arms, your
legs, your eyes, ears, your face, you are still you, as you are what your mind is and your mind is what your brain does. Without a mind,
you are nothing but a bunch of human cells. There is no functioning mind/brain in place in a 12 week old fetus. Its an organism, not a person. Like it or not, get emotional about arms or legs if you want.

If you are a normal woman and have had your period, then you have flushed many potentially cute babies down the toilet. All that is missing was some cells. You chose to flush, to not give that potentially cute baby a life, your choice.

MJ, she didn't have legal abortion, because legal abortions are banned in much of the third world, thanks to the political influence of the Catholic Church. She probably could not obtain contraceptives as the Church has done what it can to avoid those being available as well. The one thing that will help these women overnight is if the
Catholic Church sticks to preaching to its flock and stops interfering in the politics which deny third world women these things. Even here in Australia, they did their share to stop the introduction of RU 486.

The abortion rate for Sweden is fairly average for Europe, quite a bit lower then for South America or Central and East Africa, where abortion is usually banned and contraceptives are hard to get hold of, partly due to Catholic lobbying.

The Dutch are simply a pragmatic lot. They accept euthanasia and gay marriages, so much for Catholic influence :)

Having watched Mel Gibson’s portrayal of Christ’s torture and crucifixion shown on Good Friday, I’ll preface my comments with the observation that there was only one perfect man who’s walked the Earth and he was betrayed, tortured and crucified…if we can find any consolation in remembering his betrayal, it’s in seeing his teachings in action and participating…from these threads and your comments Yabby, it’s apparent we can’t expect to be treated any better. I know which side I’d prefer to have been standing on 2000years ago too.

‘you show similar logic and similar intolerance of others as the Taliban’

Actually, Yabby, you show most similarities there…as I’ve previously shown. Mjpb doesn’t advocate killing anyone, you however advocate killing the unborn, accepting that RU486 will kill some women and that abortion has women...‘Risking their lives for such a procedure’…

You and the Taliban risk the lives of innocents and promote actions that kill them…can I spell it out any clearer…so that even you can grasp it?

‘Bin Laden encourages killing of those who don't follow his religious dogma’

Actually, Yabby…get your facts straight…Bin Laden, again like you, doesn’t care who the people are…he sends HIS OWN on SUICIDE missions…and many of those who have been his victims are also his followers.

‘if they don't follow it and die, well so be it’

Your suggestion is that they should follow YOUR dictates, kill their babies and risk their own lives…someone WILL DIE on your dictatorial demands…whereas, the Catholic Church advocates respect for all human life. With today’s medical knowledge, it’s a fallacy to suggest that an abortion is safer for a woman than pregnancy is…you are living in the dark ages with your evolving relatives on that one, Yabby.

‘Those deaths could be stopped tomorrow, if the church undertook its proper role, ie to preach to its flock’

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, which deaths could stop tomorrow? The babies who die from abortions, the women who have abortions, or the millions around the world who die from starvation or lack of effective medical care or clean water…?

(tbc)

(Cont...)

The tragedy is that all of this COULD be prevented if the Church’s ‘law’ WAS implemented and followed…because then the corruption of governments, transnational corporations, so-called ‘conservation movements’ and the greed and manipulation that goes with them would be seen for what it is…all very different from the Church’s teachings, Yabby.

‘What we know is that desparate women do desparate things’

…and desperate men do too…many may even push desperate women to do things they don’t want…

…your condescending attitude to women shows more than a little insincerity Yabby, the solution should be clear even for you…don’t put them in such desperation – if you are responsible, take responsibility or don’t put her in that position in the first place. Contraception hasn’t lessened the killing of the unborn in Australia, it’s freely available, even in public toilets…but the abortion rate is now one in three live births…and rising.

Abortion therefore must be seen to produce even less sexual responsibility in either male or female…and further promiscuity.

As mjpb has indicated, Sweden led the foray into contraception and abortion…freely available…it hasn’t led to respect for women or sexual responsibility there, that’s documented fact…nor has it lessened the abortion rate. It’s abortion rate is well above the average…

‘When those abstinance intentioned girls are then hormonally struck at some point, they know very little about contraception and snap, next thing they are pregnant.’

You could do with a ‘birds and bees’ talk yourself Yabby, have you heard about the failure of contraception?

‘Rational thought, to make the world a better place, with less suffering and misery, all makes far too much sense to me to ignore.’

Suffice to say you haven’t produced any rational thought yet Yabby, though I’ve waited patiently…you seem to think that obsessing on the Catholic Church and your fantasies of destroying it and all Catholics is sufficient to validate your mindless repetition.

G K Chesterton said…”Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it had been found difficult and not tried.”

You’ve again proved his words correct…Yabby.

“MJ, she didn't have legal abortion, because legal abortions are banned in much of the third world, thanks to the political influence of the Catholic Church.”

In South American countries the Church has also been critical of Government policies concerning the poor, and attacked the government for its failure to address social problems. The Church and governments don’t see eye to eye so I have difficulty accepting that the Church has a strong political influence.

“She probably could not obtain contraceptives as the Church has done what it can to avoid those being available as well.”

In the story she was reported as having an abortion after she failed to use the contraceptive pill correctly and got pregnant.

”The abortion rate for Sweden is fairly average for Europe…”

It nevertheless can be contrasted with the Dutch abortion rate. Sweden demonstrates there is something explaining the Dutch rate other than contraception and sex education. The Dutch attitudes I have encountered indicate it is their attitude that keeps the abortion rate low and the history of Catholicism is a possible explanation for the attitude.

”The Dutch are simply a pragmatic lot. They accept euthanasia and gay marriages, so much for Catholic influence :) “

I understand what you are saying but it still seems to be the best explanation. They may have abandoned many Catholic values but the line seems to be drawn at abortion.

Church law WAS implemented Meg, history shows what a disaster that was! Apart from a highly corrupt church, crusaders would head off to kill the muslims, heretics were burnt at the stake with crucifixes being pushed towards them in the flames, so that they could repent at the last minute, before they died a cruel death. Perhaps we should make a movie of all this, plus the tens of thousands of dying
women each year from present church policy, to stir your emotions.

In fact the history of the church is a bit like bin Laden, killing for the church was common, so stop ignoring history.

Contraception works pretty well, when its properly taught and made freely available, look at Holland!

Perhaps the women of the third world should have a choice, if they prefer the life of women as in Sweden, or the present life they are living, not just chattels and baby making machines. Religious fanatics should not deny them that choice. The thing is Meg, most
women even disagree with you, just a few religious fanatics don't. Look around you in your church, the pews are empty, the believers make up maybe 3% of the population mostly oldies. People have been voting with their feet to say what they think of your church! They can't even find priests anymore!

http://www.womenonwaves.org/article-1020.42-en.html

MJ, you are correct, Govts and people are rebelling more and more against Catholic dogma. Many of the abortion laws date back to earlier times, so they need to be updated and changed. I see that in Chile, divorce is now finally legal, whew.
Not so long ago, smuggling anti baby pills into Ireland was a huge
business. Luckily women there now have freedom of choice too.

My argument with religion is when people want to enforce their ideas on the rest of us as law and when people die and suffer due to religious dogma being enforced by law. At the end of the day, religion is no more then an idea, no substantiated evidence has been presented to show that its any more then that.