Alan Grey, I stated originally in my first post on this thread Kate Mannix's article was “strange and difficult”.

Her poor presentation offers no support for pro-life and your criticising her presentation does not either.

Justine, your analogy to a one year old child is a “Pro-Life for beginners” cheap shot and like any under-developed notion, easy to demolish.
Separation from the mother, observed throught the process of birth, distinguishes the one year old from the embryo / foetus.
Hence abortion is not murder because of the significance of “separation” or establishment of self (versus extention of another) in the individual human development cycle.

Francis
On the matter of “prohibiting abortion” at no point.
The thing I ask of you is at what point should your opinion prevail over the opinion they themselves hold and are supported in by their medical advisors?

If someone, for what I would only assume is a very good reason, decides that circumstances prevail to terminate at any time through a pregnancy, then it is their decision, not yours. No veto or embargo of action which you might suggest is justified because the views you hold just don't matter.

I assume they have good reason, because I assume they are people with cognitive skills who consider their circumstances and consequences before acting.

You might consider them with decision making capabilities inferior to your own and thus you have a need to subordinate them to your view. That is the difference. I exercise what I think is humility by not inflicting my decisions on strangers, whereas you and the “Pro-Life” crew, exercising the opposite of humility by trying your best to do the opposite.

Get some humility Francis, stop pretending you know what is right for strangers when you donot even know their names.

KRS1,

Whatsamatta you whatsamatta me.

Kate,

To be perfectly frank your article is in my opinion corny.

I used to be down on women who had abortions. However I have changed my tune. I really have no idea what a pregnant woman contemplating an abortion is feeling. Also it is not up to me to judge anyone going through this ordeal. I changed my mind basically because I don't want to be someone who puts women in shackles like Islam does.

Kate you said in three million words what you could have said in three hundred. I suggest you cut the fluff and corn and try delivering something approaching a straight forward style. No more maple syrup on top.

Francis asks- 'In what part of his mind did KRS1 concoct the idiocy of "a particular circle of hell reserved for the aborted"? I'm sure not even the woman who described her abortion as "a wonderful experience" would stoop so low as to even think that aborted babies would be consigned to hell.'

Well Francis- it's your religion, not mine. As I understand it, if a foetus has a soul, then it also has original sin, and if it dies before it gets baptised then it doesn't make it to heaven. Dante theorised that the first circle of hell (limbo) was reserved for the 'unbaptised innocent', which would include the aborted. There's certain situations where the infant could be granted grace, but as I understand it these are pretty unlikely. The church asks us to just trust God's mercy and love in the matter, but seeing as displays of god's mercy and love have been pretty few and far between lately, I wouldn't be holding my breath. Apparently you're Anglican, so I'm not sure what stance your church takes on this, but you can bet it's something that bothers Tony Abbott

Anyway, if I'm wrong on this please let me know, but understand that to me this is like debating whether or not the tooth fairy can fly.

Now, does a foetus suffer during abortion? Well depending on who you listen to, between seven and 26 weeks into pregnancy, it doesn't. Which brings me to your final question. When do I think abortions should be allowed to be performed? Well Francis, I just don't know. It's a hard old world full of shades of grey. If the mother's life is at risk, then I have to say, yes, the day before birth. If not? Well, that's a question for the woman and her doctor, and I wouldn't presume to meddle in it.

Col Rouge

"Justine, your analogy to a one year old child is a “Pro-Life for beginners” cheap shot and like any under-developed notion, easy to demolish."

Congratulations Col, you have passed Insults 101. You know, I would thought you would have the pride in yourself to present your argument with some class. I was wrong however, because you obviously need to degrade your debates to mud slinging matches in order to feel validated in the discussion, due to your lack of legitimate points.

"Separation from the mother, observed throught the process of birth, distinguishes the one year old from the embryo / foetus.
Hence abortion is not murder because of the significance of “separation” or establishment of self (versus extention of another) in the individual human development cycle."

So you are saying that an 8 1/2 month foetus in utero should possess no human rights, while the foetus born pre-mature at 5 months should possess them all?

Justin86

>>So you are saying that an 8 1/2 month foetus in utero should possess no human rights, while the foetus born pre-mature at 5 months should possess them all?<<

I'll answer this, because

1. I am woman

2. I have experienced abortion.

3. I have experienced miscarriage.

Until a baby is independent of its mother - ie born and this includes premmies it does not have autonomy.

Therefore, it may, if the circumstances warrant, be aborted.

I am aware that this is shocking to pro-foetals like yourself, however women are not and never will be mere incubators - they are, in fact, autonmous human beings, and this means they can make intelligent decisions for themselves in how they live their lives.

There is a lot of talk about women suffering after abortion - I certainly cried after mine. However, I was also relieved.

When I miscarried (twice) I grieved. I still grieve. But let me make this VERY clear I do not regret my earlier abortion. The circumstances were such that I had no alternatives and are no-one's business but my own.

I know the pro-foetals will not be able to understand what I am trying to impart. And I also know the reason, because pro-foetals do not care about living breathing humans, they only care about little cells.

So, Justin86, in the final analysis an 8 1/2 month old foetus may be aborted if the circumstances warrant it. A premmie baby on life support may have continued life support if circumstances warrant that. The people who decide are the parents and medical professionals.

Justine you are the one who brought on the insults101 with your groundless and self-righteous dissertation on the supposed selfishness of those who would choose a course contrary to one you might choose. I was merely responding at the level you placed the debate on with your fatuous example.

Regarding

“So you are saying that an 8 1/2 month foetus in utero should possess no human rights, while the foetus born pre-mature at 5 months should possess them all?”

A 5 month, premature baby, would be under 26 weeks development. Based on Dutch medical practice it would not be sustained due to the extremely high statistical probabilities of severe defects (assuming they even survived). The Dutch recognise that “life” itself is not an unconditionally worthy experience but needs some expectation to a level of “quality” (over mere existence).

As to the 8 1/2 month developed foetus, whilst the foetus is attached to the mother any rights which might be claimed for it are subordinate to the rights of the mother, regardless of the state or progress of development.

Being a father who loves his daughters I recall the debates I had with myself when they were about to be born. I always believed it was better, if a choice needed to be made, to save the mother and I believe that still, without a doubt in my mind.

As for elective abortions at 8 1/2 months. Whilst these might happen, I believe they only happen for reasons which are “good” in the mind of the mother and her medical advisors. Some might suggest “oh it was inconvenient” and other lame things to persuade us otherwise but I find it irreconcilable that someone should pursue a pregnancy through months of development, discomfort and expectation just to decide, on a whim, to end it.
Such reasoning is nonsensical. If a woman decides to abort at 8 1/2 months, it is for a reason, she does not have to explain it to me or you but reason there will be.

My feelings go out to and for you Scout