So true Francis, if we rate our lives according to Kate's scale of who lives and who dies...the population of the world would hang on whether our Mother's were having a good day or not.

My pregnancies were difficult from day one, my doctor's varied in their advice from one range of the spectrum to the other as a result. Since medical difficulties have been where medical learning takes place, I am thankful other mothers decided their children were worth the 'trouble' despite requiring sacrifice to ensure their safe delivery.

My children too are intelligent, loving, generous and pro-life Catholics who aren't afraid of sacrifice for me either. My husband is not Catholic but pro-life by choice...because he understands the worth of each of the children we lost as well as those we have, as each of us do.

Having worked with women since my youth, I have seen the effects of abortion on women...no 'simple surgery' causes that sort of trauma and sense of loss and guilt...abortion does. Abortion does not solve the problems those women face, they are dumped back into the same situation with the knowledge that the only 'solution' society could find for them was to kill their baby, think what that does to their 'spirit', Kate...or the 'spirit' of anyone they try to form a relationship with later.

Abortion is a selfish society's way of passing the buck and saying, "Dispose of the problem". Kate can hardly judge the reaction of the gentleman in question and conclude that he should have gushed over her photo, or whatever reaction she would have prefered. Just as she is an imperfect human, so she can hardly expect any one of us to be perfect in her eyes surely.

There was only one perfect human and they crucified him 2000 years ago, has much changed since then?

Meg1 “no 'simple surgery' causes that sort of trauma and sense of loss and guilt...abortion does. "

I doubt you would find one single pro-choice supporter to disagree with you.

The outcome of abortion, any ensuing guilt is not the point.

The point is sovereignty of the individual and the right of people with free will to exercise that will in regard to their own knowledge of their circumstances and capabilities.

Only by exercising freewill does a person grow to their own full potential.
Deny them free will, in respect to their own body, reduces their status to that of a slave to the embryo /foetus.

Slavery, just like the repressive practices of the Catholic Church, are things which I will do my utmost to overthrow and banish to the history books.

I am quite sure some women may feel guilt after an abortion. I am equally sure other women regret not aborting some offspring when they had opportunity to do so.
Either way, they have to live with the decision.

Only through being responsible and accountable for our own actions do we grow as people.

No one develops in a social system where the state or authorities determine what we can or cannot do with our own bodies.
All that does transpire from repressive social order is
1 a lot of miserable lives
2 a lot of resentment about what might have been
3 a lot of illegal abortions
4 a lot of blaming other people for the circumstances which ensue

Legal Abortion is not a “selfish” society

It is a society saying

“we respect our individual members, which society exists to support and not command, sufficiently to determine for themselves what they should do, recognising they know best their own circumstances, expectations and capabilities”.

A selfish attitude in someone and thus society, comes from those who say

“I am anti abortion and I demand you comply with my expectations and sensitivities, regardless of your own circumstances, wants and capabilities.”

And that IS the Pro-Life societal expectation, one full of the selfishness which emanates from sanctimonious self-righteousness

Well said Col Rouge.......

Col and Scout

You keep asserting that all pro-life people have these attitudes:
- "pro-foetals do not care about living breathing humans, they only care about little cells"
- "Pro-Life societal expectation, one full of the selfishness which emanates from sanctimonious self-righteousness"

It is bad debating to make a mass negative stereotype about the (minority!) group you are arguing with. You know that isn't true, we're defending the child and you're defending the mother. There really is no need to show contempt.

- (Scout) So, Justin86, in the final analysis an 8 1/2 month old foetus may be aborted if the circumstances warrant it.
- (Col) If a woman decides to abort at 8 1/2 months, it is for a reason, she does not have to explain it to me or you but reason there will be.

The question is how do I debate this? If you really believe that an 8 1/2 month child is just a bunch of cells and can be disposed of like rubbish at the garbage dump, then I don't really know what to say.

I would at least ask you to consider how arbitary your stance is, just as you say we are arbitary choosing conception as the starting point. I would suggest that science heavily would point to the latter.

Yabby
OK I've heard this Onan comment like 5 times on here. The story isn't even about holy sperm! So I am going to copy/paste it for everyone to see, so (hopefully) we don't have to hear this argument again lol.

Genesis 38:7-10 NIV
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death.

As you can see, the reason God got angry with Onan was because in the times, the brother-in-law was obligated to help the wife produce offspring. Otherwise the widow was rejected, and never had the opportunity to have a child. Onan obviously thought his brothers wife was pretty alright, so he was willing to have sex with her. But as for actually having to have a kid and look after it, that was a bit inconvinient for him. So he practiced birth control in the form of withdrawal.

So the point of the story isn't that sperm are holy. The point is that he should of impregnated her, but instead he just used her for sex. Using this story to say that masturbation, withdrawal etc. are evil, or that sperm are holy, is drawing an extremely long bow.

Justin86

I really resent the use of the moniker "pro-life" . It is a clearly a form of double-speak as it only refers to presumed 'rights' of a foetus over that of an adult human being.

The simple fact is this:

Abortion is legal. Whether it is performed at 12 weeks or 34 weeks is dependent on the individual circumstances of the pregnant woman.

The best thing you can do for any woman is to support her and the difficult choices she may have to make.

Pro-life is caring for people already on this planet, such as war refugees, children in poverty, abused children, abused parents.

Pro-foetus is caring for the unborn at the expense of the living.

I can only assume that you want a return to back-yard abortions which are anti-life. Did you not watch Compass on ABC on Sunday night? If you had, you would've heard the heart rending stories of women who have suffered unnecessarily because of so called values imposed on them by a dogmatic and authoritarian regime.

I will consider your opinion seriously when you can demonstrate that you are indeed truly pro-life. While you remain pro-foetus you are treating women as incubators.