Good posts Rainier, I for one am glad you had enough time to do the digging on that quote.

I find it rather interesting that people lambast Salam, Irfan and others for "not speaking out about the Muslim male problem" and so on all the time - yet in the same breath also state that they are fed up with Muslim/Lebanese issues being all over the press, and wish they would all just shut up.

Seems like they can't win regardless of what they do.

G’day dawood,Banjo,Robert and others,

There are many online speeches and articles written and spoken by Irfan.

In the closing paragraph of his article (Also in Matilda) he states:

“The real Muslim extremists want the average Muslim punter to believe the whole world is out to destroy Islam. And so we have an unusual spectacle of allegedly conservative commentators and pundits providing free propaganda services to al Qaeda”.

Link: http://www.newmatilda.com/pdf_storage/magazine_123.pdf

And this
“The national body, the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) has not held a national Muslim youth camp since 1988. They have no youth representatives on their executive, and have not had a single female on their executive for over two decades. Their youth adviser is Sheik Hilali, a man in his 60s.” http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3843

I want to point out that I don’t think its up to Salam and Irfan to come on line here and defend themselves against crazy accusations about their personal integrity – especially to the Lunatics here who only want to see and hear the anti-Islamic images and voices in their heads.

Question: Who here has coherently explained the cultural, political and ideological reasons and thus existence behind the of the Far Right wing white Australians at the Riot and their infestation generally in our society? No-one. Is their presence more acceptable than non-white extremists? I think for many it is.

Skippy, for future reference, it is usually best that you involve yourself in the entirety of debate before you jump in and start spouting your quasi-intellectual references and chestbeat with your other neocon buddies. This thread, for many, is a continuation of the other thread on the Cronulla riots, on which I failed to notice any posts on your behalf.

That aside, I can assure you that both Benjamin and your predictable responses to the more open-minded posts in this forum have not in anyway caused me pain! In fact, they have reassured me that the ability to string a few big words together does by no means coincide with a loss of bigotry or ignorance!

Your post on New Racism is difficult to follow, and this is not the first time I have read about the concept. Racism, in any form, is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and/or that a particular race is superior to others. I do not subscribe to this belief. Others on this thread, however, plainly do.

Again, because this debate goes back some time, my responses are better read with a degree of history in mind. On a number of occasions Thor has made his prejudices clear, believing that all "Middle-Easterners" were rapists (although I think that post was removed), and at no point has he denied his overt racism. I simply pointed out that he should apply his dislike for gangs to all.

Anyway I do to an extent agree with Benjamin. If people are thugs, then they are thugs. It shouldn’t matter what their race is. But the entire problem that I have seen with the posts of some of these threads is that people are prepared to judge entire communities or races on the actions of few. And that is all I have sought to dispute from the start. It is not logical to criticise an entire race because, quite simply, individuals differ, and should be judged as such.

Do you have a response to Rainers quotes?

Rainier

You haven't answered the question you were asked;

'Quote Banjo: “Salam, Ifran and others seem to be in denial regarding the cultural problems of Muslim males, but it has to be confronted. Otherwise, in time, it will worsen and there will be the possibility of restrictions on Muslim immigration”.'

'I have been very bothered by Irfan's apparent dodging of the issue in his articles and posts on OLO.'

You claimed this was not the case for both Salam and Irfan.
Nothing you provided refutes others not so crazy claims.

On a previous post on another thread I think I found why it is the case Irfan and Salam appear in denial and it makes perfectly reasonable sense. I'll repeat a comment I found on an Islamic forum site.

‘We are supposed to make excuses for our brothers & sisters in Islam...not turn on them at the first oppurtunity..’
(http://forums.muslimvillage.net/).

That is more representative of both Irfan and Salam's non-condemnation. They are sticking to the precepts of their religion. That's understandable. It's also not an uncommon attitude in communities across Australia. The only difficulty arises when people who hold such views speak publicly. They're attacked for one-sidedness. I was once one of the attackers. I'd have been placated much sooner had this notion been explained. I was fortunate to have chanced across this idea.

Rainer on Thursday 26 January, you asked me, in that wondrously patronising style you have made all your own, to explain the statistical process for “what quantum formula you (I) use to come to this longitudinal assimilation paradigm.”

You then waffled on some what about “look forward to reading your highly qualified response.”

Well I lodged a response Friday 27 January and as I had responded to your request asked something of you.

Time is getting away, I know you are busy,

chastising Benjamin,

instruction DB in basic sociology (for what reason I do not know, sociology is not a science, despite the pretence sociologists have to claiming such (Sociology is a bunch of bossy deadbeats pontificating about how those “that can” should subsidise those “that cannot”, on the priorities called by sociologist – that is why so many of them (sociologist that is) end up with airy fairy degrees and jobs in call centres)),

remonstrating with Banjo,

apologising to Robert

and lecturing Banjo, Robert and others on matters concerning the literary prowess of “Irfan”

However, could you get back to answering my very simple question

” I would ask, do you support my “assimilative” view or do you feel your “values” align you with the “segregationists”? “

rainer, thanks for the response. My concerns relating to Itfan's recent articles and posting are to do with the apparent double standards in his commentary. He has made a point of commenting on the Cronulla riot and appears to deliberately downplay and put spin on the issues that lead up to the riot.

He seems unwilling or unable to say that the behaviour of the gangs is unacceptable whilst quite willing to condem what is to the best of my knowledge a one off incident (and I hope it stays that way). I was hoping that you would have a quote or two from Irfan similar to the one from Salam. What he has done so far looks like double standards, we all do that from time to time but I had expected it to be a bit less blatant in Irfan's case.

Extremists of any persuasion be it political, religious or whatever can be a threat to all of us . I very much doubt that we will ever stop have a society totally free of extremism, what we can do is work towards minimising the conditions that seem to allow them to flourish and infect others. In regard to the muslim/non-muslim divide that extremists on both sides seek to promote the rest of us can do whatever we can to be seen to be dealing fairly with "the other side". Plenty of non-muslims have expressed their disgust at the behaviour of that non-muslim crowd in Cronulla, have spoken against the targetting of people of "middle eastern appearance" etc. Irfan and some other muslim commentators seem to have gone out of their way to avoid addressing the actions which lead up to the riot whilst criticising the rioters. Playing right into the hands of those who want to promote anti muslim feeling.

Irfan definately has the right to comment on what he likes but if he wants to reduce tensions and suspicion being willing to criticise the actions of the gangs (as Salam's comments do) is a good place to start.
R0bert