Salam, even though you have tried hard to make out you are one of us, (true blue Aussie), you still persist in being derogatory towards our way of life. Trying to conceal, yet putting forward your so called superior religious viewpoint.

Your head scarf shows your true colours and allegiances and they aren't here in Australia. Otherwise you would be following our social ways and wear cool comfortable clothes in this climate, fitting in with us instead of trying to force your despotic values down our throats.

“We were disgraced in the eyes of the world last year “

Thats is simply not true and is just your way of trying again to make us feel bad. Sensible people in the world supported us, for finally standing up to the religious bigotry we have to put up with from your lot.

“Is Australia Day just an excuse to have a day off work and get drunk, or does it hold a little more value?”

It's easy to see that you have no idea about Australians. I can understand that, considering your religious desire to show us as fools and your despotic religious ways as sensible.

“If people fleeing war-driven countries and other nations where they have few basic rights to come here, isn’t enough to tell you we are a lucky country, I don’t know what is.”

We will continue to be a lucky country despite those that come here trying to enforce their violent religious cultures upon us. Your manner, dress and expression give you away. I would like to see you write something that doesn't put this country and its way of life down and A photo of the true you, instead of one bound in fear. But from you previous articles, I doubt you have the capacity.

Ms. Zreika continues to demonstrate her unworldliness, naively believing that the “world” has taken more than a passing interest in the Cronulla stoush. It was a first for us, and could even be a one-off, whereas in most parts of the world it is commonplace. Much of the world thinks we are Austria, and the rest of it thinks our Liberal government is left wing, as it would be anywhere but Australia.

Her contradictory writing trips her up when she advises that we are a “world-renowned laid-back country”.

There is no controversy surrounding our Australian flag. There is merely some continuation of the nutty beliefs of some disturbed people and a few very unusual localised amateur politicians who can’t make the grade in the big league of State or Federal politics.

On the positive side, Ms. Zreika herself has a sound attitude to our flag – a happy contrast with a certain leader of the Opposition who not so long ago opined that flying the Australian flag at schools was “divisive”.

I also applaud her attitude to Australia Day. Unfortunately, many people who regard themselves as “true-blue” do regard the day as just another day off work and an excuse to ‘celebrate’ by killing off more brain cells than they can afford to lose. Then there are the people who think we should ignore it because we might become too nationalistic like those ‘dreadful’ Americans

Hi Salam

You are starting to approach the right track. You need however to take a little advice from Dirk Moses when he says

‘…we have been presented with the entrenched positions, staked out and clung to with dogmatic tenacity. Little critical self-reflection is evident,… writers give the smug impression of already having all the answers.’

We are't a nation of violent racist boozers.

None of us feel represented by the violence perpretrated before, during and after the Cronulla riot.

Before you start saying,

'If you had asked me ten years ago what word I would use to describe Australia, it would have been “multiculturalism”. If you asked me the same question today, I would still answer with “multiculturalism”.'

you need to define, as Irfan suggested, Multi-culturalism.

That's reasonable. Before we have a society with 'a backbone of national unity' we need a common understanding of what multi-culturalism means.

I invite you to come into this forum and give us your definition.

Now I'll give an example of Dirk's 'critical self-reflection'.

I've often asked why has there been a deathly silence from the Muslim community when it comes to condemning the violent behaviour of some of their youth.

I’ve held it a case involving, in some negative way, the Tenet of Muslim Solidarity. I’ve believed that tenet hindered a merging with the greater community.

I might have had my mind changed.

I visited a web site Moses referenced. I was enlightened. I was absolutely stunned by the following statement:

‘We are supposed to make excuses for our brothers & sisters in Islam...not turn on them at the first oppurtunity..’
(http://forums.muslimvillage.net/).

My new view is as follows:

Ned Kelly and his extended clan would give this sentiment a rousing cheer of approval. I’d never looked at the tenet of Solidarity in such a way. This simple statement adequately answers my inquiry and reasonably explains that deathly silence. I also believe such a sentiment could be understood and a mutually acceptable way could be found to incorporate it within the operation of our common legal and enforcement systems.

Regards Keith

Multiculturalism was a wishful concept that has never really worked in reality. It was a government invention to cover up their inadequacy and impotence to control the monster they have unleashed through indiscriminate and naïve immigration policies.

There is something immensely wrong when second or third-generation Salam can believe the society in which she lives in is evil to the core (and needs to be destroyed).

>> Is Australia Day just an excuse to have a day off work and get drunk, …<<

Who can forget the cheering in the Islamic schools and in the suburban streets after 9/11?

Who can forget the applaud to radical anti Australian speeches in our town halls?

There is something wrong when multiculturalism allows Muslims to attend mosques that continue to spew Australian hatred in the minds of its believers.

As a step forward to a unified Australia, we should insist on the right to know (on our terms and not some PR open day) what is being taught in muslim schools and mosques.

Maybe it is time for the muslim community to break their deafening silence and come clean and show us what they really teach under the protective shelter of multicultural PC.

Perhaps it is time to say, we have welcomed you in your time of strive - now this is the way it is here, you are NOT welcome to take our country and change our culture.

No matter how much you try to make us believe you have good intentions for this country we know exactly how you feel inside. We know what’s in your heart and we must say: NO thanks.

This is a very angry article with flavours of inverted racism.

It's getting to the point where an anglo-saxon christian who likes a day off work and has a few drinks should be ashamed of themselves.

"Will there be racial tension leading to more riots?" Were the riots about being "australian?" Most of those involved were youths, which says more about social cultures than racial tension;

..."disrespect to indigenous australians...". Celebrating Australia Day on 26 Jan is more about european settlement than about indigenous australians.

"Is Australia Day just an excuse to have a day off work and get drunk, or does it hold a little more value?" That's like asking christians if christmas day is "just" another holiday - Well, yes, but it doesn't mean they're not christians.

Was I reading a different article?

Isn't this a typical soft-left piece on the value of tolerance? Isn't she advocating celebrating Australia Day and singing the anthem in school?

you guys are carrying on like it's an al-zarqawi speech.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into this article. Perhaps Salam has some history with her articles that I'm not aware of but I didn't see anything in this one to suggest a)apologism for islamic extremism or b) racist generalisations about anglo-saxon/christian Australian culture. It didn't seem angry or violent in any way.

Her article seemed to me suggest that we use the opportunity of Australia Day to meaningfully unite and celebrate our multicultural society and that's about it.

Salam, for my part, I won't really be joining in the celebrations. It's nothing against anyone. I just find all that flag waving Aussie, Aussie, Aussie stuff everyone goes on with on Australia Day a bit boring. Nobody used to care about Australia Day but in the last ten years or so it's turned into the 4th of July or something.

An interesting article Salam, thank you. I do warn you however. As you may notice, this will quickly become a thread where those who happily (& openly) peddle their prejudices ramble on about how all Muslims hate 'Australians' and 'multiculturalism' doesn't work.

I have had just about enough of trying to reason with many of the ignorant, bigoted people posting on these threads. Regardless, Alchemist, you are a racist, unaware fool. If you are happy with that than fine. But I would say that Salam is more Australian than you will ever be, in her respect and admiration not only for her country, but also for ALL of those who reside within it.

Look around people! Australia IS a multicultural society, whether you like it or not. Stope peddling your ignorant attitudes and move on. I point you to my posts on the recent Cronulla riots if you want to know my opinion on these matters further

Salam, I think multiculturalism can be likened to a used car. It looks pretty from across the road but as you get real close to it the faults become obvious. It has a few dodgy foreign parts included in it. The paint work is starting to peel. The speedo has been wound back to make it look young and fresh. There are signs that it has been in a few prangs. The paperwork that goes with the car was thrown overboard when the car was imported. The tyres have been painted with that nice tyre black but on close inspection you notice that the retreads are almost bald. The salesman with the one-way sunglasses, gold tooth and Panama hat latches onto you like a leech. No need to take this baby for a ride, he says. Trust me, this car will suit you and you won't look back.

Those of us who knew better said no thanks. We were surprised to find the 'bomb' sitting in our drive-way when we got home with the salesman saying that we were getting the car whether we wanted it or not. We've been paying for it ever since. And the blessed car is still as we suspected; a bomb that should've been sent to the wrecker years ago.

Salam, how much longer will you try to sell us this used car?

Salam,

Good article though I think its all a storm in a teacup.
Living in Sydney for the last 10 years, personal experience confirms average Australians are very tolerant and have no issues with different backgrounds whether ethinic or religious.

The whole cronulla issue is a mix of bad behaviour by a bunch of people, relaxed law enforcement and yellow media.

Learnings in my view are simple:

1. Stronger law enforcement and establishment of gang management force.

2. Encouragement of objective media and journalism (through a modified act or code of conduct for example). For example, the bastards who bashed the life saver on Cronulla and those who got drunk and bashed innocent people on the street are just 'criminals who broke the law'. Nothing else should be attributed to them.

3. Youth education, better parenting programs for harrassement (sexual or general) for first offence, tougher penalty for repeat offenders. Body gestures, staring and saying rude words to females on the beaches should not be OK for any youth of any background.

Can we get some definitions here? it seems at the moment everyone's standing around waiting their turn to put the boot into this amorphous blob called 'multiculturalism'. THe way I see it, 'multiculturalism' is either:
1. People from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds sharing the same values (I'm talking democracy and rule of law)
2. People from differen cultural and ethnic backgrounds with different values
3. A policy introduced by the Keating Labour government whereby ethnic 'spokespeople' are given pork in exchange for garuanteeing the votes of their communities.

I'm against 3 and have my doubts about 2, but if you're against 1 then you're a racist numbskull and not worth the trouble.

Alchemist indeed is a racist fool. If he wasn't ashamed of the image of Australia that the reports of the Cronulla riots would have depicted overseas, he is probably too insensitive. OK, those rioters were not representative of most Australians, but people overseas wouldn't know that.

It is true to say that multiculturalism is here to stay, the genie is out of the bottle, and by and large Australia is changed for the better because of it. The article was saying nothing offensive but the offence nevertheless taken by the bigots contributing to this debate speaks volumes about them. And it is fair to ask whether Australia Day is just an excuse to have a day off and get drunk - plenty of people have posed the question before, I don't recall any previous reaction as foolish as some on this page.

Fellow_Human, you're my fellow human.

Couldn't say it better except I would replace the 'cowardly' media entry with simply a 'sensationalist' media.

The Cronulla riot is now forgotten by the rest of the world. For us it is a novelty, WE THINK the world actually gives a damn.

Neverless the general consensus on this thread is multiculturalism is an embarrassment, shameful and very much like a car wreck. AGREED. Australia day represents the beginning of Australia as a modern industrialised democracy. NEWSFLASH. White people are at the forefront of Australia's development. Multi-culti is barely even a part of Australia's history, I'd say like a baby in nappies (as evidenced by some on this thread - multiculti has not even been toilet trained).

Nevertheless, some are bored by the efficiency of Aussie life, and feel the need to import people from here there and everywhere to fulfil the in vogue ideal of multiculturalism. Salam is a part of this crazed experiment, and the contradicitions inher article show it.

KRS 1, as esteemable as your namesake!

Definitions are what is required, I would note that you #1 is actually integration rather than assimilation. assimilation is what multiculturalism stands for, ie australia changes its ideology to include those of people immigrating. integration sees immigrants as coming to this country to live like us ideologically (not religiously or culturally). By ideologically I mean the legal system we live by and the democracy this produces.

Unfortunately most people are unaware of these two drastically different alternatives.

Perhaps the fact that we (and I do assume this for most if not all australians) is that regarding ideological (legal and democratic) issues we want to be integrating other peoples, whereas culturally (language, art etc) we want immigrants to assimilate (we are interested in improving our culture through their historical experiences etc).

But what do we tell immigrants, this is a multicultural society, with no explanation of what this means, what is expected, what laws they need to follow etc. if they had the english to understand even that first sentence 'this is a multicultural society' the actual statement is meaningless when the government has not espoused what it legally means.

We should explain it as multicultural is about culture, and definitely not about ideologies prevelant in those cultures. Ideologically we do not welcome your input, culturally we do.

Ps. why doesn't someone spell out this authors history before bagging it out, do not carry previous forums over to new ones! Or perhaps some posts have been removed. What on earth is everyone going on about, it certainly is not this article.

Get Alchemist day is it, love it. Those that label people racist, are just that. I object to the violent, irrational and illogical stupidity of religion, not a persons race. Show me where I mention race.

Salam is a representative of a religion, not a race. However being an Australian she has decided to follow a religious culture that's foreign, is seen to be very violent between themselves and at odds with Australians approach.

Logically, that makes her a racist and anti Australian. Her religious cultures the problem. Not her race, she's Australian.

Those that have no knowledge to uphold their beleifs, sling accusations in a futile attempt to hide their inadequate, illusional knowledge of the religion they cling to, in drowning desperation.

PK, “If he wasn't ashamed image of Australia that the reports of the Cronulla riots would have depicted overseas”.

Show me to those shameful reports. Talk to those that live in Europe and see how they reacted, most never even heard about it. They have enough religious trouble of their own to deal with

So you accuse me of being racist against an Australian. Very rational and logical. I just wonder sometimes, from what orifice of your bodies some of you religious, pull these statements from.

Fh, exactly right, lots of the problems could be sorted out with a more authoritative approach, instead if the mealy mouthed PC pollies, pleasing no one, but themselves.

Multiculturalism is not here to stay, because over time all cultures blend in with the dominant one. real Australians don't want the dominant culture in Australia to be a religious one, and all religions have that goal. It is a part of all their doctrines, they just use different methods.

Australia is fine as it is, and will continue that way as long as people keep their beleifs to themselves and in their homes. I'm sure your god would agree with a peaceful accepting culture like Australia, rather than example of religious ones throughout the world and their history

I just wanted to add that I'm not anti-multiculti. I just thought the article was antagonistic.

Asking if Aust Day is just an "excuse to get drunk" is not going to elicit constructive comments from Australians about what Australia Day means to them. For some (like Dick), it's just boring. For others, it could be a celebration of the day they became an australian. For others, it may be just a day to "get drunk". It doesn't really matter, they're all valid meanings for different individuals. Kind of like religion really.

PS: I was overseas during the riots and they didn't make the news. I only knew about it because I read the smh website.

Sorry, Got here too late Salam, it appears the lunatic OLO gang of Right wingers (and whingers), paranoid conspiracy theorists, alien abductees and disgruntled ex One Nation fodder have pounced and are attempting to weave your words into their hate speach making (again) Its how they celebrate their unique form of Australianness. Don't you just love em!

But much more importantly- From this Indigenous first nation person to you and your family and friends, have a great day tomorrow. You're as much a part of this country as I am. To my many other OLO friends here the same to you too. You know who you are!

I'll be marching tomorrow with my people, many of them non-Indigenous Anglo’s and people from all around the world. We call tomorrow Invasion Day, but it’s also a celebration of our survival.

Assalamu Alilkum Wa Rahmatulah Wa Barakatuh!

Rainier

You are a very intelligent person. You could use that intellect to show leadership rather than hubris.

I had a laugh earlier. I hope you take this in the spirit it's intended.
I quoted one of your statements on another thread.

I noted a spelling error, in the accepted manner.
Only with rereading did I notice a Freudian slip. I've been giggling away ever since. I hope you join me in my mirth.

Kontext I unserer Diskussion es war humourous.

To the leftists and liberalists on this forum – please explain to me why you say the rioters at Cronulla were ‘racists’ and in the explanation please address the below.

A significant number of Pacific Islanders had come down to the beach at Cronulla to "support the Australian way of life"

that means there were WHITE Anglo-Saxon Australians side by side with BLACK Islanders UNITED against the constant thuggery and intimidation and hatred that young men of middle eastern heritage have for this country and its people. It is CLEAR that the colour of ones skin had nothing to do with it - IT IS ABOUT A CULTURE that comes down to the beach and threatens to rape white girls if they don't 'cover up' –

If BLACK AND WHITE Australians were fighting in mateship – they DID NOT turn on each other when they realised they had different skin colour did they!! SO SHUT UP AND STOP SAYING THE WHITE ANGLO_SAXON OR THE BLACK PACIFIC ISLANDER AUSTRALIANS AT CRONULLA WERE RACIST.

And, I suggest to you that you are racist for signaling out the white anglo-saxon Australians, and not saying anything about the black islanders who also attacked middle easterns.

It’s not really that hard Thor.

The rioters were/are racist because they attacked a number of complete strangers based only on their physical (racial) appearance.

There was no attempt to establish religion, political persuasion, favourite sport or food, or any other 'cultural' definition.

There was even a complete disregard for wether those who were attacked were in any way related to the assault on the life guards.

They were targeted on physical appearance alone.

Your second point about the nationality of the rioters is irrelevant. racism is firstly the judgement of a person, and secondly the harm, or intention to harm, physically, verbally, financially, socially, that person based solely on their physical racial appearance.

its not easy being

let us take your definition of racisim to be correct - [such and such] 'based solely on their physical racial appearance'.

Then, clearly it had nothing to do with race by your own definition.

As the attacks were NOT 'based SOLELY on their physical racial appearance', but were based on OTHER FACTORS ALSO*.

*(the other factors may have been the constant intimidation, hatred for Australians, assaults, threats of rape to young Australian girls, actual rapes, shootings, thuggery, and other asocial conduct in society).

As the Australian people, black and white Australians, did not attack Middle Easterns 'based solely on their physical racial appearance', BUT attacked Middles Easterns based on OTHER FACTORS ALSO... THEN, by YOUR OWN DEFINITION, the Australian people CANNOT be racist.

DON'T ARGUE WITH A LAW STUDENT MATE!!

Dear Salam

I have read all of your OLO articles as far as I know. This is another generic one - change a few paragraphs here and there - and change the title. That's about it for me.

My husband and I will be thinking about Indigenous Australians tomorrow. We cannot apologise for something that others did when Australia was colonised. How can we? We were not alive to know what really happened.

We will be raising the Aussie flag. We will be having a BBQ, and we will not be getting drunk. We will be playing John Williamson.

Cheers to all
Kay
PS: Salam - are you wanting another riot?

Multiculturalism?

Seems more like American culture to me. Gangsta culture, turf wars, illegal immigration, religous tolerance, alcohol intolerance.

The more immigrants we have the more right wing we get, because afterall we all are gathered here tomorrow to celebrate our economic benefits, because of the almighty dollar. Is what joins us together.

We push and push to be more like America everday yet we complain about the US? We don't like the fact they are so capitalistic yet we push for more like minded people to join us in so called multiculture? people who see riches. A country that attracts the most greedy will always be an economic success.

Now some want open borders, wow cheap labour and disease, good way to get rid of medicare and industrial reform. Even more then we can rid rid of welfare the way we know it and introduce food stamps. How else would money driven people have it?

America, try living there and you see how such a society cannot or will not support social policy. A society that demands strong and lethal law enforcement. If you think Australia will be different...ha ha ha I say to you.

Ah yes, a multiculture we are. lol.

Tomorrow think I will have some lamb chops and get drunk...

because I can...

for how much long I wonder?

Thor

The attacks at Cronulla were racist, no excuse.

The ten years before of racial bigotry, disrespect for law and crybaby antics by muslims in south western sydney (no proof they are dysfunctional elsehwere) was criminally negligent on behalf of a huge percentage of that community.

Do not support the Cronulla riots, then we are as bad as they are. We do not tolerate that crap. They may, WE DON'T! By our own or theirs!

I will celebrate Australia Day in the usual understated way that I grew up with.

Just another public holiday.

Why?

Because being 'Australian' was good enough it itself, every day was a celebration of being Australian.

Just Australian. Or for the 'new chums': New Australian.

Not Italian Australian, Greek Australian or any Aussie Mossie or any other branded Australian.

Good enough to just be an Australian, and proud of that.

At school assembies each morning we would say:

"I honour my God

I serve my Queen

I salute my Flag".


Strange words to some of us: honour, service, salute.

The Queen as monarch being a symbol of the social contract between the state and its citizens. The flag being a symbol of this country and its values.

But there is little honour left in a country where fit young men and women won't stand on a bus for the aged, infirm and pregnant.

Where so many of the arrivals of the last 30 years don't understand the idea of saluting the flag - by only having one citizenship to their name. Or burn it or use it as a symbol of hatred.

Where people are abused on the street for simply being 'Just an Australian'.

So, there is actually nothing to celebrate on 'Australia Day' for me, the article proves that, because evidently it is no longer good enough to be 'Just an Australian'.

I am just an Australian, celebrate your bastardised version if you wish, I pity you for it.

Kalweb,

The fact that you are thinking about Aboriginal Australians tomorrow is a great start... I am proud of the Aboriginal people and will also respect their views tomorrow as well as think of them.

The fact that you can't apologise because you didn't do anything to them may be wrong depending on your age. If you voted in any of the elections since you were born you can apologise, if you so choose, for how poorly our Governments have treated them through those years. If our Govt oppresses people or fails to help people effectively we all indirectly hurt these people ... afterall we voted them in... and they represent us.

Sadly people miss this fundamental point.

Secondly if you can't find it in your heart to do this you can say you are sorry for what was done to the Aborigiunes in the past. This is a different sorry to the first sorry but still as important.

I am sorry for what our Australian Govt has done to our Aborigines since we came to this country and I apologise to them for all their suffering.

Now that didn't hurt me one bit.

Multi Culturalism..... a silly idea. 'A diverse and rich single Culture' a much better one.

SALAM -some thoughts. Your wear a very 'in your face' Hijab which is far more than the requirement of your own documents of faith. The purpose of it, I've been told or read numerous times is to 'protect girls from the lustful gaze of men, and to avoid highlighting her femininity with that in mind.' Excuse my french but what a lot of hogwash, unless it refers only to Muslim males.

1/ We can SEE if a girl is 'hot' or not so, just from the face and shape.

2/ While we are all human, and in my case male, we don't immediately start salivating as soon as a normally dressed female passes by, we note it, and move on. I guess if some outstandingly ravishing girl comes close, we might raise our eyebrows more and have a sudden inrush of testosterone driven thoughts, but basically, we see girls as people. Our culture has adjusted to the style of clothing we wear.

3/ Because of the above, wearing a hijab does not fulfil its purpose, and in fact, probably does more harm than good. It emphasizes a 'them/us' situation. God looks at the HEART not the rags on your back. Flaunting is no good in any culture, but wearing a smart but modest set of apparel is not ungodly... why not give it a go ?

ABORIGINALS
I heard a comment on the ABC yesterday which touched at the CORE of Aboriginal low self esteem.

"You want us to dance as warriors, but not act like them"

In anthropological and psychological terms, this explains so much about indigenous drunkennes and petrol sniffing and poor attitude to housing etc provided by any government. Just imagine if we were in another culture, and everytime we wanted to express manhood in terms of Australian culture, we were frowned upon, repressed, threatened with legal action, jailed etc........ yes, it would be depressing.

SOLUTION we need to find ways Indigenous men can express their manhood with dignity, within the law.

SydneyMorningHerald Jan26_06

Migrants should be tested on Australian history, politics and traditions and be able to speak English competently before they are granted Australian citizenship, an MP believes. (Dr Bob Such SA)

"Just as it is important that Australians born here receive adequate education about our government, culture and history, it is not unreasonable to expect that applicants for citizenship have not only a commitment to Australia but also an understanding of its history, customs, political systems and traditions.

All I can say is PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH BRUTHA ! tesSStify !

What a glorious day when we find key politicians actually SAYING what obviously so many of us are FEELING.. What a day :)

"Just as it is important that Australians born here receive adequate education about our government, culture and history, it is not unreasonable to expect that applicants for citizenship have not only a commitment to Australia but also an understanding of its history, customs, political systems and traditions.

7fold AMEN to that....

[A NEW "coalition of the willing" will be created to investigate how Australian history should be taught in schools and to stem the fall in the number of students taking the subject, the Prime Minister has announced]

[Mr Howard said he would prefer history was taught with a strong emphasis on pivotal dates and events such as the Battle of Hastings and the European discovery of Australia.]

wow ! :)

YES.. PIVOTAL DATES.. Salam.. like 732 battle of Tours, 1650ish Battle of Vienna.

Mr PM.. lets go further.. lets have National days of rememberance for Charlemaigne (Battle of Tours), and Count Stubovsky (Vienna).. those who gave us freedom from Arab oppression of the Crescent.

Cronulla riots lasted a few hours, were stamped on efficiently.

Conversely, France suffered for 4 consecutive weeks with Muslims burning, looting and lawlessness and eventually had to deploy curfews.

Guess which one got the larger world attention and which one represented the greater “disgraced in the eyes of the world”.

Multiculturalism is merely the half way house, something to facilitate easier settlement of new Australian. Ultimately, “multiculturalist” policies will be replaced with “assimilatist” policies and Australia will meld into one. That is the inevitable outcome.

How do I know this? because the “Angles” and the “Saxons” merged to the point where they produced the assimilated race of Anglo-Saxons, who (plus the Normans) went on and colonised, with relative success, much of the rest of the world, Australia included (with the help of a few convict Celts).

Now, if anyone is ashamed of their heritage I guess they should ask themselves –

1 Is the world a different place to what is was 200 years ago?

2 Based on the experiences of South America, would Australia have been better off colonised by the Spanish?

3 Based on the experiences of East Timor, would Australia have been better off colonised by the Indonesians?

Anyone who can say “Yes” to any one of the above, please explain your reasoning.

Until you do, I am going to assume that

1 The best thing for Australia was to be colonised by the British (compared to being colonised by anyone else).

2 All migrants who have arrived since the original colonisation (and I include myself here) accept their duty to make every effort to “assimilate” into Australian society.

3 Just as the Angles and the Saxons had to accept the arrival of the Normans, Kooris and other Indigenous races need to accept the arrival and enduring presence of the (one time) British since colonisation.

Now, I am off to celebrate Australia Day, I am not ashamed of where I came from and certainly not ashamed of who I am, that is
Firstly, an Australian by choice
and Secondarily, of Anglo-Saxon descent by accident.

ColR,

Yes, nothing new there old son, you've said it elsewhere ad nauseum.

However, I am interested to know what quantum formula you use to come to this longitudinal assimilation paradigm.

Let’s start with some prime numbers.

For example, for your prophecy to happen you would need to know what % population of world’s population is Euro/Anglo Saxon (white).

Is it 70%?

Let’s assume migration patterns increase here in line with world population growth percent.

Also for the sake of discussion let’s assume your prophecy is true - when do you predict this inevitable 'final solution’ of yours will eventuate. 2007? 2020? 2035? 2040?

I look forward to reading your highly qualified response.

Col

Well said about Australia Day. I'm off to sit poolside with a beer. I'll be listening into the races and the cricket. Have a great Australia Day.

Yep Rainier, statistic's and critical evaluation are a must when any such statements are made and held. But I doubt you'd dispute the first three paragraph's in Col's post on any basis. Give him some encouragement where he's right. Then criticise him where he's suspect or where you can show his opinion when different different to yours is wrong.

HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY to my fellow Aussies,

COM ON AUSSIE COM'ON, AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE, OIOIOI...

I'll prolly take a walk to my GrandFathers grave and thank him for all he did.

We have no beer here today sadly, but i LOVE the Aussie beer drinking tradition, Salem doesn't it seems nor does Keysar Trad rude people.

Here is Kasyers feelings on our culture,

“our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia, and the people of the world in general. Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia, and mostly we are a big threat to the culture of ELITISM."

http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/RACISM.HTM
please read in full, this vile Anti Aussie hatred and pass this link around to Australians.

Shame Leytons out of the Open hey!

To Austrailia's Aboriginals, best of luck in a democratic world, i know its hard but make what you can of it and try and keep your race alive, ive had many a happy beer with your lot to and Aborigianl culture is very worth your while saving. Good luck!

But Rainier, in the future, Western countries may not be THE place to go. The place to migrate too might be China or India given their increasing prosperity. How will our leftist multiculturalist propogandists be able to fathom that? Oh, they'd probably leave. YESSS.

Australia may one day find it difficult to attract migrants with such competition.

I expect Salam Zereika will celebrate Australia Day. After all, this date has now morphed in to Multicultural day. Australia day is now ANZAC Day, where Australian values and the culture of the Australian people are celebrated.

If Salem Zereika wishes to be acepted as an Australian, her first step would be to renounce Sharia Law,which states that people who have sex outside of marriage must be stoned to death.

Personally, I tend to be hostile towards people who wish to stone me to death, and I think that most people would consider such an attitude fair and reasonable. Naturally, I will not accept people who wish to stone me to death as my countrymen.

Salam should therefore stop wearing dishcloths on her head. Wearing this dishcloth means that the wearer is a supporter of militant Islam. I regard such people with as much mistrust as I would a person walking down the street wearing an armband with a swastica or the hammer and sickle on it.

Finally, I would point out that when Salam mentioned "the Cronulla riots" she made no mention of the fact that what caused them was the unacceptable behaviour of young Muslim men. Neither did she mention the revenge attacks by Muslim men at Brighton or Maroubra, which ironically (poetic justice?) targetted the sort of trendoid Eastern Suburbs Europeans who usually defend multiculturalism.

Now I don't blame Salam for showing who's side she is on by defending her own people. But she should not be surprised if white Europeans do exactly the same thing.

Come now Salam, 'Multiculturalism' is not the defining characteristic of Australia, nor will it ever be. You exhibit a genuine ignorance of the imposition and continuing maintainence of multicultural policy. It was a policy that was imposed from above, not through community pressure. The Labor party recognised the power of the migrant vote, and under the auspices of multiculturalism implemented a series of legislation and appointments that sought not a multicultural utopia but the continuing support of migrants for the ALP. Ethnic branch stacking is the most prominent manifestation of this campaigning. The anti-Multicultural sentiment is not limited to hordes of drunk yobbos rampaging on beaches, it is prevalent in university campuses, schoolyards, workplaces and sporting clubs. Australians do not recognise all culturas as being equal. They will accept other races and religions but they will not allow their treasured cultural ethos to be eroded through dirty politics. Multiculturalism is well on display today at the Adelaide oval, where Australians unite to support cricket. Most born here, though many wave Sri Lankan flaga on Australia's national day. Where is their loyalty, where is their patriotism. Presumably the former to the ALP, and the latter quite sadly, abroad. It might be easy for the middle-class leftist intelligentsia to proclaim the benefits of multiculturalism from the comfort of the inner suburb villas, but in the ethnicically shattered areas life is not so peachy or tolerant.

Redneck,
this link:
http://www.secularislam.org/women/bulletin31.htm

is important as it includes a report of a woman stoned to death in Marseilles France!

We can’t let it get to that stage here.

Rape is revolting enough, but stoning in a Western Country, (not to detract from stoning and burnings in the East) shows a terrifying loss of Western standards.

Ali Hirsali now lives under 24-hour protection due to serious death threats from islamists. Heres an interview with her, broadcast just today, she’s also done a lot on islamic women’s issues.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4640606.stm
it’s very worth downloading the podcast of the whole interview.

Incase you haven’t seen the woman’s rights film Theo (Vincent’s grandson and Dutch national Icon) Van Gogh was brutally slaughtered by islamists for and Ayaan Hirsi’s comments on their reasons for make it.

Submission film
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/log/2292608
Even after Thos brutal slaughter this film was banned from a lot of Euro Art festivals incase it offended islamists.

Ayaan’s opinion
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2005_50_fri_02.shtm

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Merideath,
I am so sorry that your good personal friend Leyton is out of the open today. He can however comfort himself, and it must be a great personal comfort for you also, that he can stay home with his wife and newborn, and count his $30 million. That sould take some of the disappointment off his continueing losing streak at the Australian Open. I certainly hope so, because I really care about Leytons personal welfare, as much as he does about mine, it's a shared thing, a blokey thing, you wouldn't understand. Happy Australia Day all and the best of luck for 2006, we'll need it.....

When the rest of the world, except for Islamic countries, read about the Cronulla riots, I'll bet their thoughts were.."Aha!Australians are having the same trouble with Muslim thugs as we do". Must be contageous.
Your people will never be true Aussies while your minds reject everything we stand for. And we reject all your medievil ways that should have been left in the countries you abandoned. Sorry.

Rainier,

We have tried for over two hundred years to teach your people about the finer things in life. Why have you not listened? You could be using a knife and fork by now.

Salam,

You are not Australian.

Rainier please call me boss.

Salam, I’ve no need to tell you about ugly Australians, there’s plenty here. I look forward to the day when OLO requires all to reveal their true identities. I’ve got nothing to hide. I wonder if the brave true blue Aussies here would want all to know who they are and what they think? One would think they wouldn’t hesitate – being members of a moral majority they continue to refer to.

Davo, good point, but look back fifty years and the trends don't comply with your hypothesis. Let’s agree that the use of historical precedent can’t be selectively used whenever huh?

Keith Thanks, but hey, you weren’t exactly courteous to Dirk now huh? But now you want me to be Mr Congeniality? lol

Rainer, I really would not want some of those who post here being able to track me down or potentially some of that large number who read and don't post - them I know nothing about. Not ashamed of my views but paranoid enough to think that could be dangerous at times. Other reasons for prefering annonomity as well such as Family Law issues.

I think that there is a good place for public debate with a reasonable freedom from the risk of consequences for airing unpopular viewpoints. Some issues are better thrashed out even if that carries the pain of listening to some horrid stuff.

I'm not real concerned about the official arm of big sister - I guess she could find out who each of us is without much trouble. What I don't want to do is make it easy for the unofficial enforcers of some viewpoints to have easy access to me.

A bit paranoid maybe but the hatred expressed in some of the posts that pop up here is enough to provide some justification for concern and dealing with some of the extremists in the agencies surrounding Family Law provides seperate justification.

R0bert

Rainier,

You sound a bit depressed. Cheer up. Back in 1967 I voted "yes" to make you a citizen. Please don't thank me. I am after all here to help.

As for fortitude. The British didn't have to do much to take over. I believe in calling a spade a spade.

The problem with a lot of "minorities" is that want to be something special and that is "white", like me Fred Reich.

Rainier "don't go changin'".

Rainier

If I hadn't got his back up he wouldn't have debated me.

I offered a sincere apology, It was rejected. No apology was offered by Dirk for his insults.

Besides you'd never call me a racist.

Dear Salam,

[part 1]

On talkback radio the other day, it was confirmed by two unrelated callers from different parts of a certain SW Sydney suburb, that a gang of youths who identify as being Lebanese were out “hunting Aussies,” (i.e. Anglos). Both of these callers were of Lebanese descent, which they each said was what saved them from a bashing.

Even if these incidents did have a direct connection to Cronulla Dec 11 they are nonetheless totally “unjustified events.” Such racially-motivated assaults have been occurring across Sydney for the past 10-15 years.

For instance,
• two footballers were gunned down (i.e. killed) by such a gang outside of a Coogee pub a few years back just for being “skipps”;
• a young “skipp” had his head fatally slammed against a telegraph pole by such a gang a couple of New Years Eve’s back;
• there have been numerous “Aussie sluts” racially gang-raped over the years by who in many cases were groups of “kin”;
• there have been hoards of Anglo males, predominantly those of the poorer classes, who have been violently bashed by such gangs, the middle-classes getting a taste of it at Darling Harbour or Wesfields;
• there are many cases proving that even the police are reticent to confront such gangs, sometimes even prudently retreating back to headquarters for the sake of avoiding an otherwise bloodbath of death, and the subsequent flow of inquiries.

The difference between any evidence I present here, and the racial abuse acknowledged in the likes of the ISMA Report, is that unlike the latter’s reliance on mere survey, my evidence is verifiable by police and ambulance reports.

Although the mere tip of the iceberg, this still reflects an underlying bigotry inherent in sections of the Australian Middle-Eastern community, an intolerance that you, Salam, ought to be addressing.

Imagine the reverse! Say no more!

[part 2]

This has led to the situation whereby the broader Australian community feels powerless, and it is precisely such powerlessness which spawned the 5000 turnout at Cronulla Dec 11.

When a victim actually takes these thugs to court, they are threatened, racially abused (including, by the entire family of the defendants), and in many cases, for fear of being killed, they drop the case or move interstate under the recommendation of the police (see Today Tonight archives mid 2005).

Days after the Cronulla riots and subsequent voilence, people who were originally calling for a protest against the middle eastern gangs such as the Bra Boys and Glen Steele(the x-footballer who is now in hiding), publicly apoligised to try to help restore calm, as well as many in the community who cooperated with police to lock up the thugs who perpetrated the violence on Dec 11 at Cronulla.
All the likes of one of their main youth leaders, Fahdi Rahman, could say was that “they feel superior to non-muslims” and that “they hate the western world” and that “why wouldn’t they be angry when the police treated them different the Anglos”. This is ludicrous, since the police smashed the Anglos at Cronulla with battons, whereas the Lebanese thugs were steered clear of, allowed to head to Brighton le Sands and Maroubra in a convoy as police were ordered “not to engage and antagonise them”. When they stopped and searched their convertible BMWs, Mecedes Benzs and hotted-up sports cars, the police confiscated their swords, bats, poles etc.(if not guns) then let them drive on to later randomly bash and stab innocent “skips”, as well as destroy hundreds of cars.
All of this from a community that makes up only 2-3% of the nations population. They need to have a good hard look at themselves and attempt to demarcate the racist bigots from the decent people, and stop blaming everybody else for their own Arabic “hairyheads”(like skinheads but muslim ones) problem.

Matthew - well spoken mate.

Cheers
Kay

Matthew wrote:

For instance,
• two footballers were gunned down (i.e. killed) by such a gang outside of a Coogee pub a few years back just for being “skipps”;
• a young “skipp” had his head fatally slammed against a telegraph pole by such a gang a couple of New Years Eve’s back;
• there have been numerous “Aussie sluts” racially gang-raped over the years by who in many cases were groups of “kin”;

Matthew, the footballers were shot outside a pub at Five Dock, not Coogee. The shooters belonged to a gang of mixed ethnicity, including those of non-Islamic Lebanese and other ethnicities.

The telegraph pole killing took place at Emu Plains, and involved young men of anglo background.

The groups of 'kin' were brothers from Pakistan, (a group that also included an outsider from Nepal) - of Pushtun ethnicity - not of Lebanese background.

So, if you are going to slang off at a certain ethnic group, please make sure that you have the facts right.

That is not to say that a group of individuals of Lebanese background are not the cause of much trouble. But at least get stuck into them for the right reasons, like the killing of Edward Lee and the activities that took place in an attempt to pervert the course of justic afterwards.

Seems like there's plenty of cowards on this board. I don't hear the anti-muslim and anti-multiculturism views that you write hear anywhere else other than on the net. Anonymity brings courage it seems. As a part of a migrant family myself and being married to a woman who has recently migrated to Australia, it's important, for my family's safety, that I remember that people like you are out there even if you don't have the courage to say what you think of me and my family to our faces.

I watched a review of the Australia Day celebrations on the news this evening. I note that all the faces on the t.v were exceptionally white. Australia didn't look too multicultural at all so not too much for you guys to worry about after all.

Would an Aussie get upset if someone typed incorrect information about us alledging things about us that we never did or that only a small number of us did?

Well guess what that is the problem when we let our emotions rule our heads.

This shouldn't have to be said but Just because someone types something doesn't mean it is true ... just because someone tells you something it doesn't mean it is true. And just because one person from a particular background does something it doesn't mean they all did it..

The postings by Matthew and the corrections by Hamlet are an excellent example.

Are all Aussie's like the Bali 9 ... No! Well guess what all Lebanese people aren't like the people who broke the law by revengefully attacking other Aussies. And all Aussies aren't like the ones in Cronulla who let their emotions rule their heads and illegally attacked anyone with a tan better than theirs. Likewise many of the people who attended Cronulla didn't perform any of the illegal acts that others did when it all got out of hand.

The problem isn't in ethnicities it is in that people form gangs. Everyone is so much tougher in a gang and more prone to break the law... but it is up to the police to deal with it not individuals or other gangs.

Here is the challenge... Why don't we all as Aussie put our differences and emotions to one side... and help the police to round up the troublemakers from all backgrounds so that the law can deal with them. If you know the names of people shown on the tapes tell the police... You can do it anonomously on crime stoppers 1800 333 000.

Parents if your kids were seen bashing people tell the police.You can do it anonomously on crime stoppers. They're going to find them sooner or later... Help them to help us put the Sydney riots behind us.

Lastly all religions say respect your parents.... well guess what brawling in the streets isn't respecting them it's shaming them.

So Dick, is someone who finds the idea of multiculturalism a coward huh? And I guess someone who adores multiculti is a remarkable human being? Hang on, if we are a democracy, that means that there is a for and against on every issue. Is the issue of immigration and multiculturalism exempt from debate?

I am against the idea of importing people from here there and everywhere just to satisfy big business demand for a population of 40 million.

Opposing multi culti has become a taboo, that is why people are reluctant to be open about there feelings. They don't want to be ridiculed. Fined for vilification or sent to jail. I often come across immigrants with no desire to learn the language or make any attempt to fit in.

I make my views known publicly. Ok, my letters to the editor never get published and threats are made everywhere else. Coward? I am fit, young and can defend myself quite easily. (Except of course against big business and the bizarre laws enacted to hold the multi culti catastrophie together).

If you are resentful towards white people mate, leave!

Salam,

(part I)

You obviously perceive that any threat to the Australian lifestyle, i.e. any intolerance, will only come from Anglo Australians who have a grievance with “multiculturalism,” those you snidely imply “get drunk” on Australia Day.

But you ought consider that the real problem facing Australia lies in the reluctance of members of non-Anglo communities to be critical of the ethno-religio-centrism and intolerance rife in their own sub-communities.

Consider yourself for instance: On the one hand, the racist verbal slur “wog” signifies to you the need to be “hiding behind my four walls,” yet on the other hand, the recently released video footage capturing the events of the nights of Dec 12-13, events which include the totally unprovoked RACE-HATE attack by three dozen sober thugs on one Anglo, signify to you little more than “irresponsible youth” and “random acts of vandalism and physical aggression”!?!

If that brutal footage was of a pack of unprovoked Anglo “skin-heads” brutally targeting a “leb,” and it was learned to have been kept hidden from the public (the task-force’s explanation being that its release would be pointless, for their experience with the Anglo-Christian community suggested they would be disinclined to report the thugs anyway), and the media refused to refer to it as depicting a “race-hate” crime, and representatives of the Anglo and Christian community went on the defensive, preferring to hysterically play the victim of generalised stereotyping than to confront the skin-head issue for the racist nihilism that it is, wouldn’t you be on the first plane to the UN?!?

But no fair-minded person needs it pointed out to them that the sober organisational capacity of well coordinated convoys of sober “lions of Lebanon” Dec 12-13, whom youth worker Fadi Rahman described as considering themselves “superior” to Anglos, reflects the utmost potent of “HERD INSTINCT,” and therefore a propensity to RACISM the likes of which most European derived Australians are literally unable to conceptualise, let alone enact, for it requires an incapacity to be concerned for the welfare of those outside of one’s own “tribe,” precisely what those at Cronulla fear.

(part II)

Now, just because Anglos are the only people who have a serious self-critical dialogue with themselves and thereby bring to the fore issues of racism, paedophilia, misogyny, etc., doesn’t mean these aren’t more rife elsewhere; quite the contrary.

And just because Anglos are the only people who seriously debate and review their identity doesn’t mean they lack one; culture does not equate to adhering to tradition! Indeed, relative to superficial food and dance, being open to transformation lies at the very core of democracy and thereby is a sign of true substance.

But such a procedure cannot function under an overbearing herd-instinct, but only a healthy individualism, hence Europe’s Reformation and Enlightenment.

A concern for the welfare of people outside of one’s “tribe” is all that the Cronulla protesters want. This is reflected in their shire’s being the largest contributor to the Tsunami Relief Fund, which assisted the anti-Christian, anti-Anglo Muslims of Aceh, and cannot be said of the tribalism of some other “Australian” fundraisers at the time, concerned only for Sri Lanka or Pakistan, for instance.

The only people known in this country who are not, as you imply of Cronullans, privy to “sharing the limited space [of the beach] with their picnic rugs and smiling faces,” are Islamic women through their utterly intolerant practice of not swimming in the same water as “infidels.” We insanely call it “tradition”!

And how might you explain the fact that the Cronulla shire had the most volunteers to the Sydney Olympics? Indeed, the Anglo population is well in the minority in Sydney, yet they comprise at least 90% of the community service jobs like the police force, fire brigade, ambulance service, and almost all volunteer community organisations.

And what of the rate at which the Cronullan’s might practice inter-ethnic marriage? Is it anything like that of Australian Lebanese Muslim males, whom Bob Birrell recently reported as having a rate of 74% of going to Lebanon itself to find a wife?

Have you ever considered that maybe the people of Cronulla don’t want to share the beach with bigots and racists?

I agree that Salam’s article wasn’t particularly earth-shattering and knew before I hit ‘comments’ that it would be attacked [deleted for flaming]. I sigh at the mindless inevitability of the same old merry-go-round ‘debates’ surrounding multiculturalism and really can’t be bothered to go into it again, so I won’t.

There was something in Salam’s article that did rouse me to comment though. I refer to two quotes in relation to the Australian flag:

“While another believes it causes disrespect among Indigenous Australians - despite us celebrating and recognising Aboriginal identity and heritage.” and “Nor does it represent an “exclusion” of Aboriginal identity and heritage.”

Unfortunately Salam has delved into an area of which she is obviously ignorant and should therefore not speak as though with some authority.

Australia Day is not a day of celebration by Aboriginals; it is a day of mourning. Aboriginal leaders don’t call January 26th Australia Day, they call it Invasion Day, and with good reason.

The Australia that is celebrated on Australia Day is 218 years old, completely negating anything worth mentioning prior to that, ignoring calls time and time again to recognise the original inhabitants of this land.

This Australia Day, we were shown the shocking image of an Australian Aboriginal BURNING the Australian flag. I think that sent a pretty clear message.

Cathy Freeman (our Cathy) also sent out a ‘shocking message’ when she carried both the Australian and Aboriginal flags on her victory run in the Olympics.

Aboriginals are NOT happy with the current state of affairs Salam. Please investigate properly before making such ignorant statements. Surely you mean “despite us PATRONISING Aboriginal identity and heritage”?

I am proudly Australian, 7th generation on my mum’s side. I am deeply appreciative of what it means to be Australian, deeply grateful of the opportunities it affords my children. I wish my pride wasn’t sullied by the blight of our past injustices on Australian Aboriginals and our present ingenuousness in dealing with them in the fair and just manner Australians would like to be identified with.

Rainier “what quantum formula you use to come to this longitudinal assimilation paradigm”

Who knows how long anything might take. Such a moment in time is not important and even if you did know when, what could or would you do about it?

As anyone capable of reasoning is aware, if, as a nation, we are to progress we need to focus as much on the journey and not just on the time of arrival at the destination.

Multicultural and Assimilation policies are about ensuring we are heading out in the right direction for that journey.

If pushed to speculate, “When” is more likely to be beyond 2200 than before. I know I will not see it, I do not expect to but some of us “think” beyond the duration or for the benefit of our own brief existence.

I guess if someone were to look at things from a “shallower perspective”, the considered visible horizon will always be closer, like 2007, 2020, 2035 or 2040

As for “final solution”

Assimilation offers no “final solution”. Assimilation is the acceptance of the consequences of changing realities resulting from the meanderings of free individuals.

The segregationist (those who fear the individual liberty associated with people mixing freely, as they wish) are those who promoted the “final solution” and relied on words like “White” to characterise their perverted fixation on the matter. They also postured the evils of racial superiority and the oppression of those who did not conform to the stricture of the master authority,

As you would have read from my “ad nauseum” posts, everything I support and everything I have ever stated is the antithesis of segregation and is a rejection of any master authority.

Rainier, My turn to ask the question, I have answered yours (above).

I would ask, do you support my “assimilative” view or do you feel your “values” align you with the “segregationists”?

I would appreciate your direct reply, else I will be left trawl through your posting history for your view.

Thanks for the support keith

Happy Australia day to Meredith and everyone else

Salam says

"I know what I will be doing this Thursday, and it does not include hiding behind my four walls in fear of being called a “wog" "

Why would you have this fear? Only a small, small minority would use this language. And those who add violence have been rounded up and punished. We have done all we can to get these ferals off the street for the benefit of all. Meanwhile we face an every growing wall of silence in rounding up ferals of lebanese descent that sarted with the Lee murder, so who has the most reason here to continue to live in fear?.

It is not good enough to say everyone wants these thugs arrested and punished when the very people that can assist police will not and the muslim community continues it's marriage of sorts to the extreme left who protect your communities "victimhood" by proesting every action by police to sort this problem out by ctricising such action as racist.

The Vietnamese community had similair problems but supported the law and rejected the patronising looney left wing. Even though nothing will ever stamp out criminal behaviour in any community there has to be SEEN support of laws if respect is to be gained.

Lets face it everytime the calls of Australians being racist have been loudest is in direct reaction to crime of people from middle eastern descent. From Edward Lee, to football riots, to gang rapes, to home invasions, to anti-social behaviour on trains.

Asians never jumped on that bandwagon and so their crime is seen as any crime, a matter for the police.

In my scimming of the posts, (some people do blahher) Nobody seems to have countered Thor's post and arguments that the riots were not about race. (sorry if someone has but I cannot read every Leftist moonbats post that are so ....boring.)

Law student using logic. And no retorts?

Go Thor!

The Big Fish, I suspect that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

The underlying issue appears to be massive levels of anger and frustration resulting from a long term campaign of intimidation, assault, rape and racial abuse by a relatively small group of young guys generally identified as being of Lebanese ethnic origins but raised in this country. It is likely that their families are muslim and that these guys have picked up up a distorted version of muslim teaching about modesty without some of the other stuff which should counterbalance it. Nothing inherently racist about people getting upset over the behaviour of these gangs and the apparent inaction of the police, government and others who could have done something to stop it. It does appear from what I have read that the gangs are very racist but that is not the issue being challenged.

Where the riot became racist was when people of "middle eastern appearance" were targeted by the crowd regardless of there being no clear involvement in the gangs. My recollection was that some of the cries were in the vein of "Get the Lebs" or worse. I have no idea what proportion of the crowd was involved in that behaviour.

Maybe we need a broader term to describe those who put loyalty to their own sub group ahead of loyalty to the broader community, something that encompases those who treat their religion, culture etc in the same way a racist treats race. We don't seem to have such a term. A word that covers those muslim spokesmen who carry on about the "riots" and are in serious denial about the actions of the gangs. A word that encompases those who get very upset that western women have to cover up when visiting some muslim countries but who also get upset at muslim women who don't uncover in this country.

A lot of this stuff is not racism, rather it has many of the same characteristics of "me and my people first" that mark racism.

R0bert

I think that the Cronulla riots were not about how a particular race looks, my daughter called that Faceism, but the reputation that they have gained and how they act!

We need to expand the Australian vocabulary to differentiate between feelings and actions.

Yesterday we were watching TV and watching an Aboriginal man burn the Australian Flag and I said to my husband that out of respect it should be against the Law to burn the flag. We discussed the fact that it wasn’t against the law because of Freedom of Speech and I couldn’t help but wonder when did speech and actions became one?.

Of course in the case of the Aboriginal man burning the flag I do believe that he has justifiable good reason to burn the flag so in that regard I am glad burning the Flag is not against the law as Aboriginal people have already suffered enough. Maybe that’s why burning the flag is not against the Law as they know that People will stand up and support the Aboriginal people if they ever tried to prosecute them for burning the flag and the Government well, well they are scared so in order to protect themselves they allow anybody to burn the flag in the name of Freedom of Speech.

They should just have a clause that says only the Aboriginal People have the right and are allowed to burn the flag.

Thor, I see you persist with your misguided opinions despite my trying to guide you in the rational direction. As a recent law graduate myself, I have seen your type day in, day out. Love the fact they are a law student, but consistently fail to apply the logic and reasoning that their degree is meant to be teaching them to their everyday life. (You will notice that one of your abusive posts on the last Cronulla thread was removed).

Relative to your point on the riots, unless you saw something different to me, I saw gangs of thugs attacking any people who looked remotely Middle Eastern. They didn’t sit them down and query their involvement in any assaults, threats of rape, shootings etc etc etc. A young girl had her headscarf ripped from her head for simply wearing it. Seems fairly clear to me. Now I don’t know how racist those who were involved would actually be one-on-one when they don’t have their mates to hide behind, but if you attack a person solely on the basis of their resemblance to a particular race, it seems to be a racist act to me.

I love the point about islanders being at the riots, protesting as well, and therefore it could not be racist. I am still giggling at that one. Many people have gone on about Lebanese and other ethnic gangs – do you all have one eye, or have you seen gangs of pacific islanders causing trouble in Sydney’s South and West? If you haven’t, I suggest you pay places like Claymore and Mt Druitt a visit. Now I don’t think every Pacific Islander is a thug, despite my brother being hospitalised by a gang of Islander youths, and I would expect everyone to apply the same logic to ALL people. Ask yourself a question Thor – if someone of your race and/or ethnicity committed a crime, would you like to be judged as the same by others, simply because you belong to that race/ethnicity?

Rainier & jkenno,

(part one)

What ever led you to assume that being critical of members of ethnic or religious groups outside of the one to which oneself identifies, equates to racism? Why can’t it just be criticism, plain and simple, where critical reason is the judge?

Unless you crazily think that only Anglos can be racist and intolerant, why do you consider it hostile to discuss the intolerance, bigotry, and racism of non-Anglos? If you pay attention you’ll notice that this is precisely what the posters are critical of.

Or would you believe it to be some kind of front, a chance alignment between their racism and the empirically verifiable nature of everything they just so happen to say? If so, please enlighten us as to how you might?

Rather than read ethnicity and religion into everything, and alway assume that inter-cultural criticism necessarily entails a generalisation-to-the-whole (which is what many Muslims do with hysterical notions like “Islamophobia”), why can’t you let us simply all be HUMAN BEINGS!

Or would this render Salam impotent in some manner when confronted by THE FULL FORCE OF CRITICAL REASON?

Is THAT why the “law of inequality,” i.e. “multiculturalism” exists? Is it because TRUE EQUALITY, truly being accepted into the fold, entails that minorities not only have the benefits that come with Australian citizenship, but also that they be EQUALLY SUBJECTED TO THE SAME LEVEL OF CRITICISM that the “hosts” subject themselves to? Non-Anglos actually ARE human too, you know!

Tell me, what is actually immoral in criticising another religion or culture? What is unhealthy in it? ANSWER you nihilistic cowards! (and why is Redneck wrong in saying that a true Muslim desires the actualisation of the Caliphate, Sharia law, etc., and is therefore a Nazi?).

Your cowardly embarrassment over the other posters only indicates how you care more about what the Other thinks of you than of whether you’re right or wrong.

Wouldn't you criticise the Nazis? (Oh, speaking of Nazis, Hamas has just been elected! Tell me, Chomsky, would it have been “wrong” to “deter democracy” there a little?).

Immodest Salam,

You say: “It is hard to pinpoint exactly what our Australian flag does represent these days,” and that we “need to take a deep hard look at who we really are.” But unless by “we” you’re excluding Anglos then I reckon the best results would come by way of our Muslim diaspora undergoing a Reformation. Where’s your belated Luther?

It makes me sick when, on the one hand, I hear an ultra-conservative, nihilistic and insular Muslim sound all pro-transformation when they’re in a country they will never feel at home in until it becomes a republic or changes its flag (SO RUDE!!), yet on the other, in regards to their True “homeland,” carry on like the farthest of right-winged nationalists the world has ever seen!

Easy being so open-to-change in Oz, concerned for the Indigenous people even! But in regards to having your homeland adapt to modernity, thereby placing its culture and religious practice under constant review (as we Anglos have to do, right?), that’s just blasphemous to even consider! Isn’t that all that’s happening in the Islamic world? Hizbut tahir’s hysteria of “Islamophobia” is nothing short of the utmost nihilistic herd-instinct fleeing the full responsibility of being human. Muslims flee the un-grounding effect of modernity like crying babies to mummy! Whimps! Can’t confront the abyss!

Given that terrorist/race-hate experts consider the measly 500 “white-supremacists” in Australia to be utterly disorganised and thus innocuous (no doubt reflective of their cultural roots in the European Enlightenment), can we say the same of the 10,000 subscribers to sheik Omran’s newsletter, or those who attend sheik Feiz’s lectures on Anglo sluts?

And what of those like you, Salam, who write nothing of such bigots? Unless your next post is a serious consideration of the reasons why you ought to be critical of your own community, or why it is important that Islam undergo a Reformation, then you are incapable of critical thought.

Whimp

Jolanda,

I don't think it wise to introduce a law against burning the flag for anyone. It is a regressive step.

I have great sympathy for the aboriginal plight and whilst I don't agree with burning someone's flag, it's not something I would generally do ... it didn't offend me.

Afterall I believe the aborigine has been treated most unfairly since we arrived on their shores and if that is the worst action, that gentleman took, then it is very mild in comparison to what others do around the world.

When something like that happens the media always run to the RSL for comment. I have total respect for our returned servicemen, many of whom also were treated badly by our Governments over the years. Some of the old timers have said to me in the past that our soldiers didn't fight for the flag... they fought for their country, the British Empire and their families. I believe they also fought for the freedom to express yourself symbolically. The burning of a flag is pure symbolism.

The strength of our democracy which was so valiantly saved and protected by our war veterens is that someone can burn the flag and we can accept it as a form of protest.

Yes, Salam has chosen a few words that reflect her ideology and interpretation of events, which is her right and really does not detract from an article supportive of celebrating Australia Day.
The Australia Day that Salam celebrates is one that focuses on a country that accepts people with different cultural backgrounds.
As a journalist Salam understands the power of words and the choice of some are curious. Some could suggest undertones that are not immediately apparent so I understand the comments made in some posts. For example, not all would share her view that the events at Cronulla were 'unjustified events'. Those who rioted may well have felt justified in their actions by preceding events. Unfortunate but true. Those who reacted to the Cronulla riots would say the same - preceding events justified their actions. Unfortunate but true.
Salam also describes the incidents as having a racial origin, but are they? Is an attack on churches (Tongan, Chinese and Fijian) of racial origin or an example of religious intolerance? Is an attack on a lifesaver the act of a racist or a bully? Is an attack on innocent bystanders racist or criminal behaviour? Is sporting a slogan 'I grew here, you flew here - Go Home' truely expressing racism or frustration and would you call it racism if this was a slogan sprouted by an Aboriginal?
Your use of the word indigenous is also curious. It assumes that only those born in Australia pre 1788 can claim to be native to the country (and presumably their offspring, even if no longer full blood but affected by non indigenous genes). Time for a dictionary moment....
In conclusion, Salam, there is a huge difference in the following: 'a day off and get drunk' and 'a day off or get drunk'. Think about it....

The most pathetic aspect of modern 'conservatism' (at least its manifestation on this forum) is that its dominated by trembling, cowards. Here's their arguments summarised-

1. Muslims will impose Sharia law on Australia if the government doesn't pass laws to protect us from them

2. lefties and Muslims will take over our beaches and suburbs and hold giant flag-burning parties if the government doesn't pass laws to protect us from them

3. Muslims and other dark-skinned folk will pollute our glorious whiteness if the government doesn't pass laws to protect us from them.

What i want to know is when did we get so frightened? Are these issues really that big deal? Isn't our flag strong enough to survive a few burnings? Isn't our society strong enough to tolerate a few lunatic fundamentalists in our midst? Better yet, to just have a good laugh at them?

Thank God Australia Day's over, so the soul-searching and patriotic breast-beating can quiten down a bit.

Opinionated2. The problem as I see it is that in Australia you can burn the flag, bully people and be a total thug and it is okay and you are even protected by the Government.

Try being a whistleblower and protecting the innocent and see what happens to you!

The balance is out and like everything it comes from the top.

Burning the flag doesn't need to be a jail term offence but to not even get a slap on the wrist or be told it is wrong sets a bad example and shows a total lack of respect especially when alot of the times the flags that are burnt dont belong to the person destroying them. It should be a crime especially if the flag it stolen.

As for the Aboriginal people, well who can blame them!

There is intolerance everywhere in Australia especially in over crowded suburbs around most cities where the new arrivals pack together in suburbs,flats,and houses wher many of these new arrival form other nations say they come here to Australia to be Australian's.

What part of an Australian are they referring to? Do they mean they can get handouts at Centrelink,to talk like us,to dress like us,to live like us and be community minded like us? What are they on about?
I live in a small country town where Italians migrated to over 60 years ago or so,they keep to thmeselves (no trouble) but still have Italian accents and many can't speak English.

We need to change this as all should attend a "boot camp". on arrival to OZ for 3 months to learn all about Australia ,our ways ,belief s,our Christian heritage,food,sports,community mindenness,and above all our language . Otherwise it will just remain h the same forever until intolerance grows more .

Benjamin,

You wrote

What ever led you to assume that being critical of members of ethnic or religious groups outside of the one to which oneself identifies, equates to racism? Why can’t it just be criticism, plain and simple, where critical reason is the judge?

After this I didn't bother reading the rest of your post cos I knew what was coming next. Yawn!

Your liberal belief in a universal subjectivity (we are all equal so get on with trying to be equal you ethnic people and don’t name white privilege and power) presumes racism will magically disappear -all because you don’t want to discuss on these terms.

What? But you get to name ethnic / non white people whenever? What kind of [deleted for swearing] critical reason is this? Go play Mr Ostrich with someone else dude.

If multiculturalism was to represent Australia, it would have to be voted on by Australians.
The word that should describe Australia is Democracy.
Multiculturalism represents 30 years of corruption of our democracy where voting on an unpopular policy has been carefully avoided so that it can continue against the will of the people.
Every poll I have seen in that thirty years showed around 70% of people against it.

Thor, ill argue with whoever I want.

And why should I care if you are a law student? Does your degree somehow give your opinions level of legitimacy above others?

Incidentally, your tendency to resort to shouting in capitals in a juvenile and ineffectual rage at the slightest hint of disagreement does not fill me with great confidence for your future career.

Ok, let’s go through this one more time.

You say the attacks were based on 'other factors' and not racism:

"*(the other factors may have been the constant intimidation, hatred for Australians, assaults, threats of rape to young Australian girls, actual rapes, shootings, thuggery, and other asocial conduct in society). "

And how do we know that the victims of the attacks were involved in any of those 'other factor'?

Oh yes, because they 'looked like they were'.

Found guilty and punished by a mob on the grounds of physical correlation?

Ah, the proud to be the patriotically incorrect, your conception of Australia is as much an anathema to the sprit and wording of our constitution as sharia law.

To apply your logically flawed justification to other situations: some whites are Nazis, therefore all whites are Nazis, some men are rapists, therefore all men are rapists.

Im not suggesting that the community in Cronulla does not have some valid concerns, or that a public protest is an inappropriate way of expressing those concerns. But any legitimacy the protest may have held was immediately discarded when innocent Australians were attacked, their complicity in your 'other factors' determined by the colour of their skin and the manner of their dress.

But then your, and other's, argument has always been that those who were attacked were not innocent, a strange position for someone who is supposedly a law student, and who therefore should be aware of the principal of the assumption of innocence. Perhaps the PM was correct to highlight a need to teach the basis for the principals of law and democracy that we hold to be one of the defining characteristics of this country.

Benjamin,

Have a confession to make: your postings on this article shows a drop in your IQ.

"Wouldn't you criticise the Nazis? (Oh, speaking of Nazis, Hamas has just been elected! Tell me, Chomsky, would it have been “wrong” to “deter democracy” there a little?)"

Any Arab or Israeli with IQ above 75 will tell you Hamas could have never reached power if it wasn't for decades of opression and failing to guarantee them a decent job and a hope in the future.

Hamas in power is a result of decades of policy of denial of Palestinians rights and shifty manoeuvres...Ostrich head in the sand...'it will all go away'..

F.H. have to disagree with you there.. victory of hamas (besides bringing us one step closer to ARMAGEDDON) was caused fundamentally by the existence of Israel. All other symptoms can be traced back to that. Israel withdrew from Gaza.. they are still attacking Israel.

The most volatile hatred and violence against Israel seems to come from the Refugee camps, i.e. those who have lost land to the existence of Israel. It won't matter what Israel does, like withdrawing from Gaza etc, they will never be happy until Israel is 'not', which of course is not gonna happen, so..full circle.

Lets see.. "Netanyahu next PM" ? Shift to 'right' in ISrael ? Iran attacked ? HAMAS try to 'militarize' Palestinians..Ka-BOOM

The 'oppression' and attacks against Palestinians are all related to the violence against Israel, which is related to the loss of land.
Add to this the Temple mount issue and we have a humanly unsolveable problem.

INEB, I have to support your view here about the 'racist' nature of the attacks on the random people of Middle Eastern appearance, Thor is correct the emotion was fueled by the previous incidents, but I think Thor needs to recognize that drunks attacking 'anyone' of ME appearance is actually 'racist' in one sense.
Yes, of course the revenge attacks were absolutely 'racist' also.

THOR... I sympathetically identify with your feelings, and I think you and INEB are not that far apart, but placing emphasis on different aspects of the issue.. I would like to think we can work through this without becoming polarized ourselves ok :)

Lets not waste our energies on bickering with each other, rather look for practical solutions for the future.

I've suggested a number of measures which would be of value I think, including an alert system, setting up of regional defense teams etc. Training in Self Defence and the legal aspects and limits of SD. Some exercises to test the viability. The Cronulla businessman who wanted electronically activated SPIKES in the 3 access roads was well intentioned but not very practical. There are other ways to trap rats :)

To the one-culture posters. So an author expresses her view on what multiculturalism means to her on Australia Day and she is attacked by the those that disagree. Of course their “criticism” is executed with their usual kind of scary , creepy and fanatical enthusiasm. And thus confirm the multiculturalness of our country.
Interesting conundrum here. The mono-culturalists can’t see that their own culture is even different from the “Australian” culture that they think they want . Usually when someone, like Salam, says something positive and affirming, we get the usual crew sounding off with their negative naysaying. Now tell me which part of Australian culture is this picking on the positive, denying others their rights to their culture without silly attacks and trying to demonise sensible posters and words? The bullying thug part?

That bully-boy (and girl) mentality is there bubbling away beneath the surface and it has nothing to do with love of this country and its ways – it is up and up nastiness, egoism and mean-spiritness. You can eat your meat pies, salute your flags and sing your anthems until you are blue in the face as far as I am concerned. Your “Australian” culture is not impacted on in anyway by allowing others to enjoy their cultural heritage.

And as far as the one- culture crowd’s political correctness position goes - what a bunch of hypocrites. Someone offers an opinion other than their peculiar, petty prejudices which they apparently hold against against other cultures and groups and it sooo offends their political- correctness position. The political-correct right mustn’t give any credence to the “soft left’. Tag ‘em, bag ‘em mentality. Don’t let other voices be heard without tainting their words with accusation and divisive comments. Keep ‘um down. Put the fear of being misquoted, tagged as a this and a that and the other. And that attitude, seen too often on OLO, is indicative of a deeper willingness to coerce with violence.

Continued :You one-culture lot riled something fierce when accused of racism every time (the frequency of which is disturbing) you argued on an issue relating to race. You embraced political correctness even, or because, of its inherent ease of misuse to stigmatise and attack your opponents. And here you are doing your damnest to demonise and discredit good, kind, helpful and sensible words. Who would have thought it? I think those attacking the author have violent souls and are trying to create a “legitimate” situation to express that violence (through, and to other people mostly).

Now here is a nice heart-warming yarn. A storm hits a small country town and a koala falls out a tree. He is big-old fella but would rip your arms off if you got too close. What to do.? Lean a ladder against a tree – and low and behold old-fella Koala climbs up the ladder. Problem solved.

Multiculturalism is just a ladder leaning on a tree – it is up to you whether or not you take advantage of the kind gesture. The one-culture lot are so carried away with self-righteousness indignation that they think that the wind wouldn’t touch them.

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. (Gum trees)

to rancitas

I believe what people are saying is that with rights comes responsibilities. Responsibilities to call to account those who break the law, even if they are in one's own community.

Not to simply criticise others without criticising oneself (just get drunk on australia day, etc). If you take a look through more forums you will see that all the bashers in this forum are quite bashing of the australian culture and institutions in other forums, as it should be. Unfortunately any muslim who undertook a serious look at his/her community in australia would probably be offed or forced to leave that community.

It was very obvious that yesterday's celebration of 'Australia Day' has become more and more popular. The harder Multiculture is pushed into our faces, the more patriotically Australian we become.
The more our flag is abused and critized , the more of us wave it proudly.
If the proponents of multiculture hadn't forced it on us, it may gradually have been accepted but we do not like being told, like infants, that others know what is best for us.
Maybe Salem didn't notice that there were thousands of Mums and Dads with their Australian families or does she only have one eye open for the worst type of ocker.I rather think so.
This is silly,naive writing of the inanest type.

Rancitas wrote:

"Your “Australian” culture is not impacted on in anyway by allowing others to enjoy their cultural heritage."

When another's cultral heritage, as expressed through claiming a space on a beach to play soccer or volleyball causes me to have to cram closer to my neighbour than I would want to: my culture is being impacted.

When a group of young men try to claim, as has been done, that in their culture girls act better than they do in Australia, and because of that Australian girls are 'fair game': my culture is being impacted.

When someone uses patronage rather than ability for advancement, as is common in many cultures: my culture is being impacted.

When someone from a non-queueing culture (Australia used to be a queueing culture - where people took their turn) jumps a queue because in their culture queues are not important, whether it is for a car spot or a place on a bus: my culture is being impacted.

When an ethnic group stacks a local political party branch in order to get their own way: my culture is being impacted.

When a shoreline is stripped of all its native fauna in order to satisfy the culinary tastes of certain ethnic groups, leaving the shoreline covered in slimy weed and devoid of other life: my culture is being impacted.

When a lamb is slaughtered and butchered in a traditional ethnic way, at Bronte Beach on a Sunday evening, as happened about six years ago: my culture is being impacted.

When people receive government subsidies in order to maintain their own cultural ways, or receive taxpayer funding for multicultural resource centres, instead of funding from within their own groups: my culture is being impacted.

When a group of young men born and educated in Australia try to avoid giving evidence in a murder trial because they claim that they cannot speak or understand English, and that claim is accepted in the name of multicuturalism because it is not politically correct to question it: my culture is being impacted.

Yes Racitas, other people's culture impact mine.

what the hell are you on about boaz? self defense teams, spikes (by which i assume you mean to keep australian citizens of a certain ethnic background out of certain areas), alerts?

whats next?

brown shirts? vigilanties? aparthied? segregation?

you seem to have missed my point about the patrioticaly incorrect. put simply, apart from superficial differences such as your choice of holy book (i use the word choice with some trepidation), i see very little diference between yourself,thor,frederic and the other denizins of the far right and islamic fundamentalists such as omram or trad.

you show the same disrequard for the principals, both written and othersise that have established this country as a free, secular and tolenrant democracy

Rainier

You'd better point out to me exactly what was racist in Benjamin's post. I for the life of me cannot discern your concern

Rancitas

We are a monoculture. Western.

We could be a bi-culture, my preference.

Aboriginal and western.

We source immigrants from a multitude of cultures but we are a monoculture. Just 2% of the population thinks multiculture means they have equal billing with aboriginals. Arrogant actually.

Rainier,

Predictably, you do just as the quote you take from Benjamin says you do: you cannot accept that such criticism does not necessarily entail ethnocentrism, i.e. that some of us CAN genuinely be critical.

Rather than see Benjamin as suggesting a “universal subjectivity” as a smokescreen for “white power,” I think he simply meant a universal “principle.”

What we call a “custom” would reflect your “subjectivity,” that which is moulded by social structure (class, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc.), and is therefore historically contingent and thus regionally particular and diverse, and thus in principle open to transformation and debate, e.g. whether eating whales is OK, whether women can attend church/mosque, the meaning of “Australian,” whether women can vote, Islamic women’s practice of not swimming with kafir, etc.

What would be “universal” would be the “principle” of democracy, i.e. majority rule based on uncorrupted critically reasoned debate (something Hizbut tahir is terrified of!), since such a principle is the ethic necessarily presupposed in the pragmatics of all communication, i.e. in order that we can understand one another we must assume one another’s capacity to reply, and thus that we each have an opinion. This becomes an enforceable “right” to be heard, i.e. to be “who” one wants to be, in order that we stave off communication breakdown.

Breakdown happens where either the herd-instinct (unquestioned tradition) or anarchic individualism (postmodernity) dominates over a consensus-based critical democracy (modernity). Hence we have law preventing discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, sex, religion, gender, etc.

Now of course the whole problem is in creating the ideal conditions in which such debate is least corruptible, and that’s a long way off yet (Hamas’ victory is perhaps the farthest down the chain here), but that says nothing against the universality of the intuitive democratic principle, and thereby that amidst our diversity, humans nonetheless DO have a universal norm in light of which we can justifiably claim that ALL peoples must subject themselves to and work towards creating the conditions under which it can flourish. These ideas are a few centuries old now (in the West, that is).

jkenno,

Answer me: Wouldn’t you be furious at someone who lives nowhere near your suburb, TELLING YOU that your deducing a pattern of violent gang behaviour in members of Australia’s Pacific Islander community was “racist”?

Answer me: And when you try to reassure them, as you have done for us, that what makes you different from “racists” is that you do not generalise your experiences to the whole Pacific Islander community, please tell us how you would then feel if that same person took your very reply as a form of “New Racism”?*

* “A curious feature of the new racism is that it is very difficult to attack. This is because its advocates speak in terms that are remarkably similar to those of postmodernists and the New Left. They speak about the need to preserve identity, difference, traditions and culture. They also speak about the need to maintain standards of equality, fair play and so on. Who can disagree with any of this? Only rarely is anything unambiguously racist said (at least in public). Instead a characteristic of the ‘new racism’ is to speak in a kind of code. Words such as ‘special treatment,’ ‘Asian ghetto’ and ‘Aboriginal Industry’ carry with them connotations which the true believer can recognise, but which allow plausible deniability of racist views on the part of the speaker” (Robert van Kriekan et al, “Sociology: Themes & Perspectives,” 2nd ed, Longman: Australia, 2000, p.542; note too that since this text refers to “street crime” as a “pseudo-racial issue,” you might have to be a “new racist” for your views about Pacific Islanders.

Two questions for van Kriekan: Given its nebulous nature, how can you claim ‘new racism’ exists? Is Salam Zreika a ‘new racist’?

One more for jkenny: What ever did Thor say to give you the impression that he would NOT be happy to have members of the Lebanese or Muslim community join the Cronulla protesters in their anger at Lebanese (Muslim?) youth? Is it your projecting onto him what you abject about yourself: your ethnocentrism?

Because of multiculturalism,we have lost our power of Christian thinking,living,celebrating Christmas,Easter, and Australia Day ,which once upon a time over 40 years ago or more we could openly thank God for Australia , the blessings He has given us in every way the Christmas decorations with Jesus in the manger ,Christian carols,God was included in our Anthem's ,God Save The Queen ,at all theaters ,ovals ,and gatherings was sung first.

Jesus was not a swear word and prayers were said first thing daily in public schools up to the 50s.

On Australia Day ,I did not read ,hear or view anyone thanking God ,Jesus or giving thanks to The Almighty in any media ,TV or talks anywhere. God has gone (where) in Australia?
In the USA at least they thank God for all their polticians and country,but not here .Why?

We are hiding God and Christ because we imagine that we will offend the new religious migrants in Australia.

Just as we tolerate them ,they should show tolerance to us Aussies our ways and the undercover Christians need to show that we ARE a Christian nation before we forget that it always has been, and go for some other belief system,like Islam,or secular humanism all over.
God bless Australia !

Don't let multiculturalism destroy the real Aussie lifestyle, and our Christian heritage which is not encouraged or mentioned by all Aussie media as they want a non- Christian nation , (controlled by powers that be) a new flag,a republic eventually and a world wide religious system. Check it out yourselves .

rancitas,

You, as with Salam, as with Eva Salis (head of Australians Against Racism), as with so so many who sustain their existence by perpetuating the falsehood that “racism” means “Anglo redneck,” such that the “ethnic minority” can justify its nihilistic “tradition,” just have no idea of how you really sound.

What you are in effect saying is that IT IS HOSTILE FOR ANGLOS TO TALK ABOUT THE RACISM THEY EXPERIENCE and which is TARGETED AT THEM.

What you effectively do (if not intentionally, you definitely do it unconsciously) is YOU MAKE ANGLOS FEEL LIKE THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, simply by raising the issue, discussing it, getting angry over it, etc.

Now, that is an absolutely SHOCKING thing to do to someone!

What is “monoculturalist” about protesting/discussing the racism of non-Anglos?

YOU PROVIDE NO ARGUMENT to support your claims that these posters are what you say they are.

Just because the group being accused of bigotry are not white rednecks, don’t mean they aren’t rednecks all the same; indeed the worst the nation’s ever seen, and apparently right from the most uneducated street thug through to the community’s leaders and tertiary-educated.

This is a shocking state of affairs to which you ignore in your utter ethnocentrism. What else but ethnocentrism (and fascism) could make others appear immoral for simply discussing the abuse targeted directly at them?

It is a shocking state of affairs when one has to say: Pretend I am a self-critical Lebanese or Muslim Australian.

But it seems, as was the case with P Hanson’s comments on ATSIC being deemed unacceptable, that race etc., really do matter to some people, for any criticism directed at members of their community from non-members just for some pathetic reason must be “racist”! Utterly pathological!

You need to MOVE BEYOND ETHNICITY

INEB

Lets be clear about a few things. Nothing I advocated is illegal or immoral. I advocated 'self defense' and I've gone into the legal side of this to know what I'm on about. You can woffle on about 'brown shirts and vigilantes all you like :) but its water off a ducks back to me. Same with Racism charges, absolutely no impact on me, because I know where I stand, and have no delusions about 'my mob's' racial superiority whatsoever. This is about law and order and survival. It happens in this case to be linked to certain social factors which are also linked to race/religion, such is life.

I guess my 'attitude' goes back to the first time in my life when I was terrorized. I've felt that sinking sick feeling of absolute and utter helplessness and utter and complete terror in the face of people who I honestly thought were going to kill me. I had just turned 16, and had never been away from home. Without going into details, let's just say that I saw and experienced beatings, plenty of blood,humiliation, torure and the whole gammit if abuse. The silly thing about it was, if we (my intake) had become organized, it would not have happened. We just didn't 'realize' it at the time.

Self defense, on a personal level or an organized level is not illegal. Are u suggesting it is immoral ? I suggest you read up on the law, and where I have departed from it, please let me know.
Don't use emotive terminology like 'brownshirts' to attack a well founded and legal position.

It seems you are unable to differentiate between 'levels' of posture.
You don't see anything in between the 'lambs to the slaughter' and the 'brownshirts'. Well, newsflash, you only speak English today because of a very well disciplined and well trained army of Charles Martel at Tours in 732 where he stopped the orgy of pillaging and destruction by the expansion of Islam.

You need to keep on taking that medication :) as I'm often told.

Jolanda

The only problem with your statement "... as I see it is that in Australia you can burn the flag, bully people and be a total thug and it is okay and you are even protected by the Government" is that you have lumped several things together.

The burning the flag is a symbolic gesture and shouldn't be illegal. We should be mature enough to accept it. If one feels angry about a country... burn the flag to let off steam ... it doesn't hurt anyone it is just a flag! Stealing a flag is already a crime as is burning one without the owners permission.

Bullying people and being a thug are totally different, they should be and already are outlawed where it can be proven. Again the thuggish behaviour of mobs & gangs in Sydney on all sides were illegal and the police are rightly tracking the culprits down.

If gangs are threatening people then they should be rounded up and charged. Perhaps a new serious charge of threatening to harm (if it doesn't already exist) should be introduced to cover the alleged threats of rape and threats to bash people. Afterall no-one should be
ever be allowed to threaten to harm another person.

I totally agree with you that whistleblowers take a great risk and they should be protected by the law much more vigorously than they are now.

Part 1

I do not agree with Salam. Multiculturalism has serious flaws and people can now see that. MC separates the community into groups or tribes, each vying for government grants and their place in the pecking order. Put simply, MC is a racket, introduced by politicians, giving taxpayers money to ethnic groups in exchange for votes.

Anyone who doubts this should look at the grants given out by the NSW Community Relations Commission. We spend millions on MC and it should not even be called MC. I call it pseudo-multiculturalism because it does not allow many to exercise some aspects of their cultures. For example, we do not allow bullfights or cockfights, child marriages, paediphilla, incest, arranged marriages, honour killings or polygamy. Some foodstuffs, such as dog meat and dolphin are either unlawfull or unacceptable by the community. Yet, such are part of other cultures.

Our culture is derived from the UK, Our laws, education, military, governance,language, religions and social standards come from the UK, with some modifacations made to suit our climate and a more casual way of life. Cultures are constantly evolving and certainly post war immigration has brought changes, but the foundations of our culture remains unchanged.

We have been a multiracial society since 1788, but we should not be termed multicultural.

Politicians gain the most from our pseudo-multicultralism as they chase the "ethnic vote".

Opinionated2. You see thats where there is alot of misunderstanding. Bullying as such is not against the law and that is why police go easy on thugs and that is is why we are in the state that we are in.

It is also not against the law to discriminate against someone out of malice or spite. So if you dont like someone you are by law permitted to bully them and treat them unfairly. It only becomes against the law if the victim can prove that it is because of their race but the Discrimination Board will not investigate complaints unless they have been provided with proof at the outset that it was because of your race .

Treating someone in a matter that is obviously unfair and obviously wrong is not enough evidence for the Discrimination board to investigate the matter for discrimination. Unless you can prove that it was because of race and you need either something in writing to say it was because race or you need to have had witnessess hear them say that what they were doing to you were because of your race you are not protected and your complaints are ignored.

It shouldn't matter who you are, if you are treated unfairly and discriminated against regardless of whether you are Australian, Lebanese, Aboriginal, Spanish, Italian etc., you should have avenues to have your greivances addressed and you should be entitled to protection.

There are alot of very unhappy people on all sides. Discrimination based on malice or spite should be against the Law regardless of who you are or your social standing.

Did you know that it is not against the Law to discriminate against those that are seen as gifted or superior. How is that fair?

Part 2

MC was foisted on us in the 1970s but while we were expected to accomodate others, no mention was made of the more unsavoury aspects of some cultures. There is more to other cultures than folk dancing, dragon parades, beer festivals and exotic foods.

The anti-social problems we are experiancing with Muslim males is cultural and has arisen in many places. Not only Cronulla. People who have daily contact with Muslim males mostly talk about them in negative terms. Teachers, nurses, police, ambulance, shop assistants, receptionists and other use such word as rude, offensive, dictatorial and beligerent to describe Muslim males. Yet I have not heard complaints regarding Muslim females.

Many European countries are also having serious problems of a similar nature with Muslim males. We need to take heed of events and abandon MC in favour of integration.

Integration does not mean we all have to be the same, but that we live together and thingk ov ourselve as Australian firstly.

We should review what information is give to propective migrants about our society, laws and standards. It seems most unreasonable if we simply say we are a MC society and then expect them to "toe the line" on arrival.

One wonders what information we gave to the parents of the Lebanese gangs, before they immigrated.

Salam, Ifran and others seem to be in denial regarding the cultural problems of Muslim males, but it has to be confronted. Otherwise, in time, it will worsen and ther will be the possibility of restrictions on Muslim immigretion.

"Discrimination". The first word a migrant learns.

"Discrimination". The only word a white person is not allowed to use.

Neo-Nazi. Racist. eek.

Hamlet: Rancitas wrote a lot more than you responded to. Nevertheless, you responded as if to confirm Rancitas’ opinions. Most of the “cultural heritage” that Hamlet alludes to is misbehaviour that is seen in most cultures including, Hamlet’s mostly English culture.

One can’t help notice Hamlet’s bias re: supposed ethnic evils. For instance: Hamlet says “when an ethnic group stacks a local political party (allegedly) in order to get their own way.” Given that branch stacking is supposedly wide spread, it seems to me that, for Hamlet, misbehaviour only comes onto his radar when it involves ethnic people. This is also confirmed by all the incidences that Hamlet cites. It is wrong to say that these incidences are supposedly representative of the behaviour of the Salam’s culture. From Hamlet’s argument I think Hamlet is racist, ethno-centric and culture-centric.

I think that the behaviour of extremist groups who keep winding up people with their negative portrayals, naysayer attitude to immigration and exclusionist position negatively impact on Australian culture more than the day to day cultural exchanges with new Australians.

Listen to me, listen to me. All the ill-mannered and inconsiderate behaviour that you wrote up can be attributed to Australians of all backgrounds as well. However, it does not stop you and I from holding firm to our code of conduct. On a national scale, and generally speaking, I still think that Australians (that includes new Australians) can practice our culture alongside other cultures without unreasonable impacts. Perhaps, the lack of social skills to communicate with people of different cultures is the real problem.

I don’t think anyone should be forced to assimilate, integrate – I think the key is to accommodate other cultures, groups and individuals of difference (within reason). Change and cultural exchange are something to relish and savour. We are always going to have disputes with other folk – how you resolve those disputes is the measure.

Hamlet I posted that list of rules you requested. Tell me what you think of Rancitas’ list of rules just for a bit of cultural exchange (Diversity).

Quote Banjo: “Salam, Ifran and others seem to be in denial regarding the cultural problems of Muslim males, but it has to be confronted. Otherwise, in time, it will worsen and there will be the possibility of restrictions on Muslim immigration”.

I doubt very much that Salam and Irfan are denying problems exist, be they cultural or otherwise.

One should be careful not confuse defence (under siege) as denial. There are no doubt structural impediments to better interactions between Muslim and non-Muslim that needs to be addressed and I’m convinced Salam would be aware of them and advocate on this basis.
See Andrew Bartlett’s call for greater political investment and resources into multiculturalism and migrant settlement programs. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4099

In Matilda magazine (December 14) Salam wrote:

" I am Lebanese and I know what these young Lebanese boys are capable of and how they behave in public. For years I have travelled on public transport and gone to venues where groups such as these have been loud, rude and obnoxious, and it disgusts me to think they are part of my cultural heritage. And I am not the only one who feels this way.You may be surprised to hear that most Middle-Eastern people agree that any person of any culture, including their own, should be arrested, punished in accordance with the law and taught right from wrong."

Irfan has publicly proclaimed similar views. Demonising all Muslim comment as regressive and in denial won't deliver any solutions either.

Rainer, thanks for posting the quote from Salam and the statement regards Irfan's public comment. Do you have a reference to the latter (or quote), I have been very bothered by Irfan's apparent dodging of the issue in his articles and posts on OLO. If he has responded to the problem elsewhere it would be somewhat of a relief. The stance he has taken on this site (or the bit's I have seen of it) have if anything strengthened the mossie bashing brigades position.

Irfan has been a writer and commentator who I have had a lot of respect for (and enjoyment of his posts), if his recent posts on OLO are an aberation rather than a reflection of his overall position I would like to know it.

R0bert

Hi RObert, I'll track it down and post it up. Sorry for not responding to your previous post. I'm tied up tutoring BD on some basic sociology, but its still there on my 'must do' list.
Cheers

The whole purpose of multiculturalism in Australia (a global experiment gone wrong)and many nations is to destroy all semblence of Judeo-Christianity.

A fully Christian nation won't use hate,revenge,divisiveness, materialism, greed or get into financial holds that governments want .
They like the credit card debts,bank hold and capitalistic control of the masses.

So multiculturalism and secular beliefs will bring in the end of all religions.
Sport,entertainment,credit cards,lots of alcohol,partying,music,dvds, tv,cars ,debt,celebrating Australia Day ,Christmas,Easter,New Year's and anything at all making Aussies blotto so they don't and can't think ,will stop Australian's from growing up into real men and women.

It is time for Aussies to grow up and stop the stupidity that is ruining our once GREAT nation.
Tony Pitt Editor of Save Australia Alliance has hit the nail on the head with his latest paper .Titled ,"We Can Restructure Australia", His website is www.tonypitt.info

"Hamlet I posted that list of rules you requested. Tell me what you think of Rancitas’ list of rules just for a bit of cultural exchange (Diversity). "

Posted by rancitas, Saturday, 28 January 2006 2:23:01 PM

rancitas: I did not ask for rules, take another look, I stated what I believe are the central tenets of Australian society, that is a liberal democracy with a rule of law and equality before the law, witn some typical pre 1970 Australian traits.

I asked you to state the tenets of your culture.

Instead you gave a list of self-instructions that sound a great deal like those given by Polonius to Laertes before his return to Wittenburg. (By the way, because Australia is an offshoot of Britain I can claim the writings of British authors pre-1788 as being as those of Australia).

Australian culture can make a firm claim on all English language writings pre-1788, however it cannot, and should not make any literary or moral claim on any other language's writings, pre or post 1788.

English is the language of Australia, and forever may it so remain.

Drake resisted the Spanish Armada's attempted to create a multicultural England in 1587 and 1588, and Nelson did likewise against French multicultural attempts in 1805.

So what is wrong with the descendants of British settlers in australia to resist the imposition of foreign cultures upon this culture?

Rainer, I know what she means, even more so. We have lived in seige for a decade. Yes they on occasion they want all all criminals arrested but..

They seem to turn it around all the time they are the victims. They have had race hate murder and race hate rape on their hands. Yet one is led to believe that they are the victims here?

Before Cronulla whatever happened that was so bad? They have victim status down pat.

Ten years of how they are treated unfairly yet not once has it related to anything but criminal charges against who they say they want arrested and punished as per the law.

"Under siege" response is exactly the response they are getting. If they feel fear of being called a wog as she puts it then try to understand what it is like living in their midst for the last ten years when you didn't even think you had police or law on your side?

They may well feel under seige, but then so have we. Until Cronulla though it was us that lived in fear.

About 8 years ago I had a letter to my house. Prior to this I had never engaged in nor commented on any Lebanese gang issue.Yet I was threatened with my life. It read in part future generations of Australians will be under our control, watch your back skip.

If they saw how ugly Cronulla was and how racist it was well tell them they see a mirror image of themselves and what their neighbours have put up with for the last ten years. Can they take ten years of Cronulla?

I will not tolerate their poor me victim nonsense anymore.

You may know, in 2002, the Islamic Council of Victoria brought suit against two Christians — simply for teaching the facts about Islam.

On the website below is witness statement of the professor of linguistics and Anglican priest Mark Durie.

The site said “its an OUTSTANDING summation of the Islamic sources of jihad ideology, dhimmitude, and related topics” . We’re lucky to have it.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001307.php

Here’s some from a textbook for high school students called ‘What is Islam all about?’ Widely available in North America and obtained from the Islamic Council of Victoria bookstore.

In Lesson 88, ‘What is an Islamic Society?’, Emerick writes:

"Muslims dream of establishing the power of Islam in the world. Muslims
of all types and backgrounds agree that the Islamic system is the best for
humanity in this life. (p.377)"

In Lesson 89, ‘What is an Islamic State?’, Emerick criticizes the separation of
Church and State in Western countries. He claims that this happened because of
the weaknesses inherent in Christianity:

"Is it any wonder that enlightened European men saw the need to put
Christianity out of political affairs? (p.381)"

Since Islam does not have the weaknesses of Christianity, such a separation would
be totally wrong for the future Islamic society. He argues that there can be no
separation of mosque and state:

"… for the object of the Islamic state is the establishment of the Deen [i.e.
the sovereignty] of Allah. (p.381)"

He gives an outline of the political and legal system of this future government,
where:

"The basis of the legal and political system is the Shari’ah of Allah. Its
main sources are the Qur’an and Sunnah. People do not make the laws,
Allah does. (p.381)"

To establish this political system is the mission of all Muslims:(end quote)

Its so hard not to sound alarmist. Its hard not to seem as if one is inciting hatred against Muslims. But there is no other way to say it – it’s a Trojan Horse within our society. There are plenty of ppl to show this document to!

raineir and jkenny,

Benjamin give you a headache? Is it all one-way for you guys hu?

rancitas,

MatthewS just obliterated you, and you have nothing to say to him? The points he last made are very very important and I'd like to hear what you have to say.

And please ... support your claims a little; else we get nowhere

Martin
Thanks for that submission it’s good reading indeed and even though it’s large I hope people read it.

Skippy,
Your point earlier that the West Society has looked into itself and has at least tried with multicult is a very valid one, the argument we are racist is dead.

Another poster on here pointed out a difference between natural-multicult and enforced-PC-style multicult. It’s an interesting thought.
It didn’t take PC-enforcement for post war new Australians to be accepted, they were accepted on their own merit.

I want people to see this written by supposed moderate Brother Kayser Trad:

http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/RACISM.HTM

Here’s a small sample:
“our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia, and the people of the world in general. Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia, and mostly we are a big threat to the culture of ELITISM."

"In a way, they feel safe because of the quantity of water which surrounds this country, so they feel fortified behind this great body, it gives them a feeling of security. But the reality is, the land belongs to God, not to them, and if those foreigners, whom they fear as migrants are not permitted to enter as migrants, they will come as settlers, in numbers so large that they will not be able to process them, hold them, or stop them. What will they do then? If these foreigners who are restraining themselves, because they see a legal hope, that they can come to this vast mainly uninhabited land for whatever reason, are told that there is no longer a legal way to come here, what will they do?"

Also an OLO poster put this up the other day re Kayser’s feelings of gay people at lecture at the University of Western Sydney (UWS) Bankstown campus, entitled “Islam and homosexuality: an Islamic, scientific and logical approach”.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/519/519p7b.htm

Rainier
Thank you for posting those comments from Salam as it seems I had the wrong impression of her feelings. If Salam reads this, I would like to say I feel the same and also about yobos that verbally abuse Muslim women. We can well do without either.

In relation to Irfan. I look forward to your posting of his comments also. Like RObert, I feel the quality of his postings has slipped of late to that of labeling and name calling.

There was a conference of young Muslims held a couple of weeks ago in Sydney and I had hopes that they would come up with some good ideas regarding the male Muslim problems. But the only thing I heard was complaints about the "generation gap". Same as everybody else.

Good posts Rainier, I for one am glad you had enough time to do the digging on that quote.

I find it rather interesting that people lambast Salam, Irfan and others for "not speaking out about the Muslim male problem" and so on all the time - yet in the same breath also state that they are fed up with Muslim/Lebanese issues being all over the press, and wish they would all just shut up.

Seems like they can't win regardless of what they do.

G’day dawood,Banjo,Robert and others,

There are many online speeches and articles written and spoken by Irfan.

In the closing paragraph of his article (Also in Matilda) he states:

“The real Muslim extremists want the average Muslim punter to believe the whole world is out to destroy Islam. And so we have an unusual spectacle of allegedly conservative commentators and pundits providing free propaganda services to al Qaeda”.

Link: http://www.newmatilda.com/pdf_storage/magazine_123.pdf

And this
“The national body, the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) has not held a national Muslim youth camp since 1988. They have no youth representatives on their executive, and have not had a single female on their executive for over two decades. Their youth adviser is Sheik Hilali, a man in his 60s.” http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3843

I want to point out that I don’t think its up to Salam and Irfan to come on line here and defend themselves against crazy accusations about their personal integrity – especially to the Lunatics here who only want to see and hear the anti-Islamic images and voices in their heads.

Question: Who here has coherently explained the cultural, political and ideological reasons and thus existence behind the of the Far Right wing white Australians at the Riot and their infestation generally in our society? No-one. Is their presence more acceptable than non-white extremists? I think for many it is.

Skippy, for future reference, it is usually best that you involve yourself in the entirety of debate before you jump in and start spouting your quasi-intellectual references and chestbeat with your other neocon buddies. This thread, for many, is a continuation of the other thread on the Cronulla riots, on which I failed to notice any posts on your behalf.

That aside, I can assure you that both Benjamin and your predictable responses to the more open-minded posts in this forum have not in anyway caused me pain! In fact, they have reassured me that the ability to string a few big words together does by no means coincide with a loss of bigotry or ignorance!

Your post on New Racism is difficult to follow, and this is not the first time I have read about the concept. Racism, in any form, is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and/or that a particular race is superior to others. I do not subscribe to this belief. Others on this thread, however, plainly do.

Again, because this debate goes back some time, my responses are better read with a degree of history in mind. On a number of occasions Thor has made his prejudices clear, believing that all "Middle-Easterners" were rapists (although I think that post was removed), and at no point has he denied his overt racism. I simply pointed out that he should apply his dislike for gangs to all.

Anyway I do to an extent agree with Benjamin. If people are thugs, then they are thugs. It shouldn’t matter what their race is. But the entire problem that I have seen with the posts of some of these threads is that people are prepared to judge entire communities or races on the actions of few. And that is all I have sought to dispute from the start. It is not logical to criticise an entire race because, quite simply, individuals differ, and should be judged as such.

Do you have a response to Rainers quotes?

Rainier

You haven't answered the question you were asked;

'Quote Banjo: “Salam, Ifran and others seem to be in denial regarding the cultural problems of Muslim males, but it has to be confronted. Otherwise, in time, it will worsen and there will be the possibility of restrictions on Muslim immigration”.'

'I have been very bothered by Irfan's apparent dodging of the issue in his articles and posts on OLO.'

You claimed this was not the case for both Salam and Irfan.
Nothing you provided refutes others not so crazy claims.

On a previous post on another thread I think I found why it is the case Irfan and Salam appear in denial and it makes perfectly reasonable sense. I'll repeat a comment I found on an Islamic forum site.

‘We are supposed to make excuses for our brothers & sisters in Islam...not turn on them at the first oppurtunity..’
(http://forums.muslimvillage.net/).

That is more representative of both Irfan and Salam's non-condemnation. They are sticking to the precepts of their religion. That's understandable. It's also not an uncommon attitude in communities across Australia. The only difficulty arises when people who hold such views speak publicly. They're attacked for one-sidedness. I was once one of the attackers. I'd have been placated much sooner had this notion been explained. I was fortunate to have chanced across this idea.

Rainer on Thursday 26 January, you asked me, in that wondrously patronising style you have made all your own, to explain the statistical process for “what quantum formula you (I) use to come to this longitudinal assimilation paradigm.”

You then waffled on some what about “look forward to reading your highly qualified response.”

Well I lodged a response Friday 27 January and as I had responded to your request asked something of you.

Time is getting away, I know you are busy,

chastising Benjamin,

instruction DB in basic sociology (for what reason I do not know, sociology is not a science, despite the pretence sociologists have to claiming such (Sociology is a bunch of bossy deadbeats pontificating about how those “that can” should subsidise those “that cannot”, on the priorities called by sociologist – that is why so many of them (sociologist that is) end up with airy fairy degrees and jobs in call centres)),

remonstrating with Banjo,

apologising to Robert

and lecturing Banjo, Robert and others on matters concerning the literary prowess of “Irfan”

However, could you get back to answering my very simple question

” I would ask, do you support my “assimilative” view or do you feel your “values” align you with the “segregationists”? “

rainer, thanks for the response. My concerns relating to Itfan's recent articles and posting are to do with the apparent double standards in his commentary. He has made a point of commenting on the Cronulla riot and appears to deliberately downplay and put spin on the issues that lead up to the riot.

He seems unwilling or unable to say that the behaviour of the gangs is unacceptable whilst quite willing to condem what is to the best of my knowledge a one off incident (and I hope it stays that way). I was hoping that you would have a quote or two from Irfan similar to the one from Salam. What he has done so far looks like double standards, we all do that from time to time but I had expected it to be a bit less blatant in Irfan's case.

Extremists of any persuasion be it political, religious or whatever can be a threat to all of us . I very much doubt that we will ever stop have a society totally free of extremism, what we can do is work towards minimising the conditions that seem to allow them to flourish and infect others. In regard to the muslim/non-muslim divide that extremists on both sides seek to promote the rest of us can do whatever we can to be seen to be dealing fairly with "the other side". Plenty of non-muslims have expressed their disgust at the behaviour of that non-muslim crowd in Cronulla, have spoken against the targetting of people of "middle eastern appearance" etc. Irfan and some other muslim commentators seem to have gone out of their way to avoid addressing the actions which lead up to the riot whilst criticising the rioters. Playing right into the hands of those who want to promote anti muslim feeling.

Irfan definately has the right to comment on what he likes but if he wants to reduce tensions and suspicion being willing to criticise the actions of the gangs (as Salam's comments do) is a good place to start.
R0bert

Salam, I liked your article, spot on.

A decade ago I was naive in thinking Australia as a tolerant, multicultural land. The many ugly responses to your essay show a markedly different story. But maybe they are just a vocal minority.

As for Australia day? My household celebrated Australia Day in an old-fashioned way. We invited everyone in my neighbourhood to our house, we had an enormous feast, and then we killed them and took their land.

(That was tongue-in-cheek. Let us never foget the first Australians.)

This forum has got boring ,just going over and over and over the same thing again and again,.
The answer is a public forum ,openly discuss the lebanese gangs and others as well as the white anglo's reactions after putting up with gang attacks for many years ,it had to explode.

Now it has to change . The mindsets are too angry and hostile to make sense now,as pay back will be planned , unless the Muslim Men and Women have a say about what they want, same with White Anglo's.

Again,should Australia change anything?
We have had a beautiful nation for a long time ,then we get people from the deserts who live like 2,000 years behind times coming to our modern democratic country,telling us how to live .

I ask all politicians to take your so called wisdom and solve this created problem that you created in the first place ,with multi-beliefs,multi-culture,multi-dress,multi-religions and multi- turmoil,costing the Australian taxpayers multi -millions of dollars in costs.
They say ,"a leopard can NEVER change it's spots".

How are they telling you how to live? How do they live 2000 yrs behind the times? That is part of the very stereotype that we need to fight against in order to make progress.

Rainer

your quote

Question: Who here has coherently explained the cultural, political and ideological reasons and thus existence behind the of the Far Right wing white Australians at the Riot and their infestation generally in our society?

Infestation generally in our society?

You explain how you reached this conclusion and you will have the answer you require. Just apply your answer to the Lebanese community equally.

Dear Col,

I apologize for not responding in kind.

Nonetheless, the interaction with others has given me time to mull over a response to your significant question.

For myself, there is a juncture we find ourselves at odds with.

That is whether we use old or new models of assimilation.

The old ones [biological absorption] relied on racial classifications and the need to maintain national racial homogeneity.

New models of assimilation cannot rely on this adhoc approach. Nor can it invent and prescribe ‘cultural formulas’- policy can only take a principled and guiding approach.

You ask me if I’m an assimilationist. I am cautious to consent to your model as I sense it may defer back to the older models aforementioned.

Tensions clearly exist in terms of what the nation-state should display symbolically as its national identity. Most of this relies on a reading of the past as a grey cardigan history, not a fluid social history.

Clearly, ethno-nationalism resists the demands of a cosmopolitan morality, but the nation-state already draws upon this for its own legitimation.

We are not bees or ants who rely on instinct; we are humans who can construct tools to allow for social adaptations.

For me there needs to be greater investment in the social and cultural habits that our own society has assembled over the last 100 years or so. Some of these habits were exemplary; others abominable in regards to how people were/were not accorded the means to productively adapt into the existing metropolis - without cultural discontinuity. A holistic approach is required.

The tide is upon us, we either build cultural canals that regulate the flow or drown from our own nationalistic insecurities.

We cannot rely on the modernist vocabulary born out in expressions of anti-multiculturalism and regulated assimilation. Culture should be seen as a storehouse of pooled learning not a uniform we issue.

As Hugh Mackay has written, ‘Our society demands that we master the art of being two things at once: - proudly cosmopolitan as well as comfortably parochial”

Dawood my reply :

ME is Behind the times in dress, transport,human rights,women treated like second class citizens,men who need to clean up their minds (women not allowed to show their God given beauty).Donkey carts and child slavery weaving carpets,making tools ,etc, for long hours,education only for the rich,poor hygeine,illiteracy abounds,low class housing,no welfare ,health bad,and much more. Beggars everywhere.

Religious zealots control most people in middle east nations,politics corrupt and more.

They (ME) people want to see Australian's mindsets like theirs in religion,food (no pork eaten) dress (no part of female body seen) no alcohol (good one ) and men only to make all decisions ,. Plus Jihad to all infidels (read the right Koran translation) as there are many.

dobbadan: That was a load of drivel. For Muslims (and Jews) no pork, that's right. No alcohol too (though this is not practised nearly as much as you would assume). But how does that infringe on your right to have them? Or presume that they would infringe on that right? If you walk anywhere around Auburn, Lakemba or elsewhere you will see Chinese shops that have Char Siu (chinese roast pork) and other things all hanging in the windows, kebab shops next door. Also pubs, Liquorland and all the other stuff with no problems at all. Not to mention that many places serve pork, even if Muslims are on staff (such as some fast food places at Flemington markets or the City markets).

Do you judge people as being "backwards" simply because of their choice of dress? I would suggest you look at pictures of Beiruit, Tripoli, Amman, Damascus, Tunis, Baghdad (before it all went down), not to mention the UAE and elsewhere before making such a blanket statement regarding modernity.

The problems of corruption and the rich being the elite is nothing unique to the Middle East.

I can't help but notice how the "minority" muslims have come out in force after a cartoon apeared in the Danish press. Suadi Arabia has all but vilified the whole of Denmark and is under the eye of the UN for it, Libya has closed down it's embassy there, there is threats of terrorism against innocent Danes and marches in Palestine. All of Denmark vilified for the actions of one and one paper. Think back to Holland and Van Gogh. Yeah right, poor little victims, thats right.

Last week it was racist soup kitchens in France where traditonal local dish that included pork was closed down because it was racist toward muslims.

Yet an Australian icon, the lifesaver gets attacked, our beach culture threatened and our safety compromised and we protest only to becalled racist, neo nazi, bigoted, intolernat etc etc.

Well if that is the case, when actual crimes were committed, then what does that make this poor "minority of millions" . Super racist, super nazi, super bigoted and super intolerant?

And the left support this movement?

I was born and bred "left" and those that call themselves "left" today have not got a clue what is was all about. They are just religous fruitcake dictators determined to oppress the masses.

btw How do you recognise Aussie terrorists.

They are the ones going Allah, Allah, Allah.. Oi! Oi! Oi!.

Thought I would throw that in while I can, or find out if I can't anymore!

jkenno,

Thankyou for replying ... in part. But I could not have spelt it out any clearer than I did.

99% of those here you deem racist or intollerant are in fact reacting to racism and intollerance directed at members of the ethnic group to which they identify, by sectors of ethnic-religious minorities.

Such racism has been happenning for some time, both directly and indirectly, coming in many forms. But at its root lies the inclination to only care about the welfare of members of your own tribe.

For instance, "Islamophobia" exists when Christian churches are being burnt, or a Salam uses language that betrays her total reluctance to name such thuggery as the "race-hate" it is, prefering to call such neo-Nazi bigots “irresponsible youth” committing “random acts of vandalism and physical aggression”!?! (see my first post above).

Rainier's quote of Salam does not have her adequately identify lebanese Muslim youth as the xenophobes they trully are (a trait handed down). Moreover, that she has never written an article on it, when we all know full-well how rife it is, says it all! And Irfan's comments need to be directed not at us, but at those youth attending meetings held by sheik Yassem, Keysar Trad, or Hizbut-tahir, etc. Despite Irfan's comments, there are NOT ENOUGH people highlighting the utter bigotry and intollerance of many who attend such meetings and various mosques. Could you honestly imagine your reaction to an ANglo-Irfan saying the same being about an Anglo group preaching intollerance, no matter how small the group? You'd think Irfan was a Nazi for such a remark!

See:http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001307.php for the link to Mark Durie's witness statement on this issue in Australia.

continued ...

dawood I can send you a newspaper clipping if you like as slavery is still on in Pakistan and Iran where kids make the carpets locked in factories until they drop.

As for pork,the hospital in Port hedland West Australia has just taken pork and bacon off the patients menus as it is offending the many local Muslims there . A report in West Australian newspaper.

jkenno,

I facetiously suggested that by your own standards you might be deemed a "new racist", since making a totally reasonable correlation between acts of violence and ethnic group--Pacific Islander--and refraining from generalising such badness to the whole Pacific Islander community, is exactly what most of the posters here are doing in regards to members of the Lebanese and Muslim communities, yet you consider them racists.

If you care to notice, any anger directed at those like Salam is as justifiable as might be, to you, deeming all One Nation voters "racist" for what their spokespersons say (or of Howard if he never sacked Hanson).

But you think that only YOU are being fair-minded. Hence my argument that your views result simply from the fact that those we are critical of are not Anglo! This makes you too irrational to debate.

Moreover, being typically one of the most inclined people to consider themselves first and foremost "human" beings, rather than "ethnics" (reflected in their charity, refugee and imigration programs, volunteer servicies, etc.), being forced to think in such tribal terms makes Anglos very angry, for it is such a primitive notion, not to mention potentially dangerous.

This was something One Nation was concerned with, and until we confront such issues such parties will continue to emerge as those to take such issues on. Now whilst that's a good thing, typically some of the other issues such parties are concerned with are not. But unless others act soon--i.e. Salam, or the radical left--Europe within 20 years will be voting Hitler in to deal with the problems they're having with elements of the exact same minority we are now having issues with.

Problem is that Bob Brown would rather enter into a "stop the war coalition" (http://www.stopwarcoalition.org/) with the likes of Keysar Trad, a man who has publically called for Muslims to defy anti-discrimination law re homosexuals in the workplace, and evoked their stoning to death (http://www.zipworld.com.au/~josken/multim~1.htm; http://www.zipworld.com.au/~josken/islamf~1.htm; http://www.zipworld.com.au/~josken/alexday.rm (radio interview); Trad’s argument endorsing the discrimination of homosexuals is especially twisted and spiteful: http//www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/520/520p8.htm).

Rainer Thankyou for your reply, Although I am quite perplexed.

“New models of assimilation cannot rely on this adhoc approach. Nor can it invent and prescribe ‘cultural formulas’- policy can only take a principled and guiding approach. “

I would ask Just how “New Models of Assimilation”, which will not rely on the "Adhoc approach" of the past, will work?

What steps should be taken to ensure the “chaos” of historic assimilation models are to be avoided and presumably replaced with "order"?

As an individual, I have always believed how and when people “assimilate” is a private and personal matter which should not concern government or bureaucrats and certainly should not be directed into any “New assimilation” process. Recognising, government is there to service the electorate and not dictate to it.

Such tinkerings reek of “Eugenics” and other morally corrupt and totally discredited attempts at social-engineering.

Call me "old fashioned" but until some "new method of assimilation" is documented, discussed, tested and proven, I think it is just too serious an issue to leave to government or "society" to decide on.

Leave us with the "old method of assimilation" with its well tried “chaos” to do its best and at least be assured, our “assimilated” grandchildren will be there because their grand parents put prejudice aside and copulated with someone of a different ethnicity who they were attracted to, rather than on the command of a sociologist or bureaucrat somewhere.

No Rainer, I am cursed with an analytical nature. I read not just the words but what is actually being said. Apart from some pseudo-sociological mumbo-jumbo supposedly about old versus new “models of assimilation”, you have simply spent 339 words saying absolutely nothing.

Thankyou for your response Skippy.

I shall repeat myself: “the entire problem that I have seen with the posts of some of these threads is that people are prepared to judge entire communities or races on the actions of few. And that is all I have sought to dispute from the start. It is not logical to criticise an entire race because, quite simply, individuals differ, and should be judged as such”.

I am not denying that there have been racist actions by various gangs in Sydney and Australia, black or white. The point I have been attempting to make is that there shouldn’t be any tribes. It doesn’t matter who is to blame. It makes me equally sick to watch the footage of the ‘reprisal attacks’ as it does to see the cowardly buffoons chasing anyone who looks remotely middle eastern, whilst waving my nations flag. I see no distinction.

I assume you mean that any criticism of Salam is not justified by using your one-nation analogy. I would feel as deeply offended and disgusted at being heaped into the same basket as that Hanson bigot as would anyone in the Lebabnese community being lumped in with the cowardly gang-members.

Skip, I don’t think only I am fair minded. I just think it is unfair to judge people on the basis of someone else’s actions just because they look like them, live near them, or go to the same place of worship.

The answer is not to finger point, as plainly that will solve nothing. The answer is to work together. But the more people want to point fingers and yell insults, the more radical each side becomes, and thus, the problem manifests.

Rainier,
Neither of your quotes by Irfan are revelant to the cultural problems of Muslim males. Maybe, on his return Irfan will be willing to put forward his views on the matter.

I could take issue with you for labeling others as lunitics that hold views that you do not agree with and could chase your "strawman", re the extreme right wing, but that would be pointless.

I would much sooner use the energy more constructively by trying to deal with a current problem.

The problem is that many Muslim males seem unwilling or unable to co-exist or integrate with non-Muslims. How many is difficult to say, but it is far more than a few and not restricted only to the "Lebanese gangs" These Muslim males have attitudes that leave little doubt that they have no respect for others, our laws, our courts, our police or Australia in general. Women in western dress are frequently the targets for abuse and rudeness.

Could we agree that there is a problem involving many, or some, Muslim males and explore ways it can be resolved.

The ammount of evidence available indicates the problem is cultural and the question is what can be done?

I did suggest to Irfan a while back that he, Waleed Aly and other "Aussie Mossies" (his term) get together and try to come up with some ideas. Our politicians do not have the ansewers and nor do the Muslim "thick Shieks" (his term)

My suggestions are:- 1. To ensure accurate and sufficient information is given to prospective migrants regarding our society, laws and social standards.
2. That our pseudo-Multiculturalism be abandoned and integration promoted. (see my previous posts, this thread)

Blind Freddy can see there is a problem, so Rainier and other posters, what are your suggestions on ways to resolve this important issue.

dobbadan: Child labour and such practises are not a uniquely Muslim thing. Why even imply that they are? What about Latin America, China and elsewhere too?

As for the pork - What are the details of the exact situation? Dhimmiwatch and other random articles don’t suffice with accurate information. Which Muslim bodies were consulted about this? Which group of Muslims complained about the situation? How many are there in Port Headland anyway? Why not simply offer a halal alternative to those who need it, instead of taking it off the menu altogether? There is plenty of approved halal meat companies (something like 125 – even Woolworths and Coles supply halal meat when asked), and Australia has plenty of suppliers all over the country, plus distribution for those that need it.

It stinks of too much PC-nonsense without proper discussion or planning.

Why have the middle eastern nations inherited lots of sandy deserts?

Oil."yes",but good land ,"No".

Ishmaelites inheritance is sand .
So,escape to good old Australia. A land of milk and honey.
Right.
So,give thanks and stop whingeing or return to what you still call home.

Col, despite your usual dismissiveness, you appear to agree with me by declaring your dislike old drivers of assimilation (Eugenics etcetera)

But you don't say who should decide upon your process.

I do believe that the voice of a new generation of Australians in (which has experienced a different kind of world to any previous generation) in Australian history will not rely on the closed mindedness I have spoken of or that you chose to advocate cos ‘it isn’t broke’. Is this really the end result of your comprehensive analysis Col?

Banjo,
Your solution states:

1. To ensure accurate and sufficient information is given to prospective migrants regarding our society, laws and social standards.
2. That our pseudo-Multiculturalism be abandoned and integration promoted. (see my previous posts, this thread)

Fair enough, but I believe this is conducted as part of citizenship and naturalisation.

Too take your idea further how about civics education for all Australians. Not all who were attacking anyone with an ethnic appearance at Cronulla appeared to know or respect ‘our society, law or social standard. Or is this knowledge something one is naturally born with here and transcends class and ethnicity?

I respect ‘our society, know its laws and social standings, speak English better than most, but to many I’ll never be as Australian as white Australians. Why is this?

To me your suggestions are evidence of commonplace denial which spares you from acknowledging not just how bigotry works but also denies the reality of migrants and Others who attempt to fit into game of ‘Ozzie culture’ where the goal posts keep being moved (by mostly white Australians) and where the rules are made up on the spot. How long would you persevere in such a frustratingly stupid game? But lo and behold, you want me to put up solutions to how I and others can win this game?

What is the story with Aborigines and Islam? You get sports people dressing up like a Harlem pimp circa 1925. What happened to free thinking?

Thanks Salam for your opinion on when we should celebrate multiculturlism. That means a lot to me coming from someone like you. I really look up to you. You are my hero. Gotta go now got to go and read "the book'. Tar Tar. Take care.

Sudanese have been targets fo the racist Lebanese gangs now. How long for? The lady said it had been going on for ages. Wow do the left agree refugees should out up with this crap as well?

Rainier
My dismissiveness was in response to the obvious.

In the history of “assimilation” (ie since man first walked the earth), “Eugenics” is new.

And I did say who.

I wrote “As an individual, I have always believed how and when people “assimilate” is a private and personal matter which should not concern government or bureaucrats”

I further said “..copulated with someone of a different ethnicity who they were attracted to, rather than on the command of a sociologist or bureaucrat somewhere”

I clearly identify, assimilation as a process where “Individuals" decide who they will assimilate with and not (or no longer) as collectively directed.

Assimilation cannot be crafted or contrived by anyone. It is the process of accidental, individual dynamics by which we evolve as a species and will eventually merge into a single national identity.

As for “experienced a different kind of world to any previous generation”

That has been true for every generation which has ever lived and will ever live. Get this, the world does not care about generations, the world keeps on turning and people keep on being born, growing and dying. Every generation is blessed with “solutions” resolved by the efforts of previous generations and faces new challenges themselves to solve. There is nothing special in “New Generation Australians” it is just the “process” .

And you thinking my support of old system represents "closed-mindedness"?

There is nothing new in your "managed assimilation" method. Slave keepers used it to breed stronger slaves and it was the essence of Eugenics.

Well Australians are individuals and we are slaves to no one, regardless of how high a tower you might place yourself in to look down on us.
The process of assimilation will not be helped by people pontificating in their ivory towers. In fact, the real reason for the “ivory towers” is to separate the pontificators from us common folk, so we can focus our efforts on “assimilating” and thereby producing the “New Generation of Australians”, leaving the pontificators out from contaminating the gene pool.

"So,give thanks and stop whingeing or return to what you still call home."

Why should i return to the UK when my wife and family is here?

Dawood,

from a previous post you said:

"...you walk anywhere around Auburn, Lakemba or elsewhere you will see Chinese shops that have Char Siu (chinese roast pork) and other things all hanging in the windows, kebab shops next door. Also pubs, Liquorland and all the other stuff with no problems at all..."

can you please answer the following:

1. Have you declared these areas (above) islamic land?
2. If so is it out of your gracious generosity that you allow pork and liquor to be freely sold there?
3. Do you really believe that the imposition of islam is the answer to our social and political problems in Australia, and the world?
4. What is the deal with the anti-sudanese refugees trying to settle in Auburn/Bankstown?

Danny Nahillia was charged with racists comments when he spoke in a Christian Church about Islam in a courteous respectful manner which has made all of this anti - Christian anti-multiculturalism.

We have a simmering pot of hatred and cross cultural differences because we are Australia,an inherited Judeo-Christian nation ,that people who come here find dissatisfaction that we are not like them,so they are demanding changes to out whole system.
,this is a spiritual matter, way beyond anyone's comprehension,unless they have read the old and new testament Bibles.

We war not against flesh and blood but against pricipalities ( evil spirits) and powers in the heavenlies.Ephesians Ch6 NT.

There are three , maybe four spiritual beliefs involved in NO1. Judaism (Jews) No2.Christianity,(Christians) No3. Islam (Muslims) and No4. Secular humanism (worldliness) human intellect.

The Old testament gives us all our leaders, Abraham,Issac,and Jacob ,Jews and Israel ,Jerusalem for first 4,000 years , then comes Christ Jesus for the the past 2006 years after which brought us Christianity , 600 years after came Islam.

What is happening now ,is a line up of these beliefs wanting full world power,a clash (fight) in the heavenlies over who rules who.

a final battle over Israel and Jerusalem (OT Ezekiel Ch 37vs21-22) then Ezekiel Ch38 read also Zechariah and Israel's (Jews)deliverance soon..
Iran ,along with other middle eastern nations backed by Russia, will attack all of Israel eventually bringing Messiah back again who wipes out all the 200 million armies with fire before they can attack.

Now Iran is saying the "Mahdi", is returning soon to Iran where nuclear bombs are on the agenda.

The enemies of Muslims naturally, are the Jews and Christians and all the Christian nations ,because the spirit of Allah hates the two other religions ,it is ALL spiritual ,the Jews have Jehovah (Yaweh) us Christians have Christ and His, Holy Spirit ,which is the umblical cord direct to God The Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God for direction,plus the speaking and praying in tongues which Holy Spirit gives us and tells us things to come.

Friedrich asks "What is the story with Aborigines and Islam? You get sports people dressing up like a Harlem pimp circa 1925. What happened to free thinking?"

Well a first point is that no one outside his small circle takes that specific mundine seriously. He's a boxer to start with & not known for brains (listen to what he craps on about, does anyone ever understand it?). Boxers, unless they happen to be that extraordinary gentleman Kostya Tszu, should generally stick to boxing not talking.

Secondly, it does illustrate again the nagging global question, does Islam recruit angry young men or does it produce angry young men?

Thirdly, the dress is just a laugh, what a d*ckhead.

Fourthly, his recruitment status explains why he didn't attend the birth of his own child in sydney. He was interviewed perhaps the year before last and said, if i recall correctly, that it wasn't appropriate for him to be there with his wife and his imminent new baby because of some very peculiar "it's a female thing" kind of reason. You only have to listen to Kostya talk about his family to know who exactly is the real man with real balls here.

Finally, he is merely one tiny recruit and hardly the sharpest spine on the porcupine. Aboriginals I know here in sydney, and in SA, never know what on earth he is going on about nor do they care much as he is way outside their mainstream, he is too offensive and too embarrassing.

One sad thing though, in the light of the silly clothes, the silly words and the earlier silly comments he made after Sept 11, the poor man has been "re-colonised" and he just doesn't know it yet.

Glad to see others are also advancing the idea about informing would be migrants about our culture, laws and ways.

ONE PROBLEM.

Ranier says "I believe this is conducted as part of citizenship and naturalisation"
But by that time... it's toooo late ! They are here, and are about to obtain citizenship, and have already been briefed by the rely's about how to work around the system.

A SUPERIOR APPROACH.

"Objective, Analysis, Measurement"
Anyone reading the government sites and info about 'Implementing Multi-cultural policies' will see that there is "continual review".. department heads are expected to give statistice, reports, and explainations about how they are actually progressing the MC agenda in their department.

A REVERSAL OF DIRECTION is needed.

I suggest we treat Migrants exactly the same ! Instead of our beurocrats being the "running" dogs of culture change of the HOST culture, how about they become the "attack" dogs of assimilation and integration ! Using the same methodology, but for a different outcome.
i.e. "Increased cohesian and unity" rather than 'Disintegration and Chaos"

Ro, Friedrich didn't mention Mundine so why are you on about him ? Are you reading words we don't read on this site?
*
And I always get a laugh when posters here invent fictive Aboriginal people they know (as their friends) to justify their slag offs. What a peculiar pychosis this is? LOL :)

I might do they same in reverse and see if it works.

" Many white Liberal party mates I have don't like John Howard" LOL

Freddy, I'd dress up in chicken outfit and do the chicken dance if it annoyed you. It'd be worth it!

coach: Do you have any idea how crazy you sound to people that are not right wing or bible thmpers? Do I think it is "Islamic land"? No. But you guys sure seem to when you keep referencing various events there, and people there to show how bad Islam and Muslims are. Your reference to "anti-Sudanese" is a case in point. What is it that makes a place "Islamic land" anyway? The above all have about as much relevance to Islam and an "Islamic State" as the hospital in WA not serving pork does.

Rainier,
My wife became a citizen a few years back and did not receive any information about Aus society, laws or social standards. So none is given and as BD pointed out it would be too late.

People need that sort of info before they make the final decission to emigrate. It is a really big step for them and I would hate to think they get a lot of unexpected surprizes on arrival. For example, if someone strongly held beliefs that women should cover up could well be offended to look down over many beaches. Similarly girls here have careers, go out alone, drive cars and enjoy far greater freedom than girls in some countries. Some foods are not available here.

If we simply say to prospective migrants that "you can exercise your own culture here" we are deceiving them and kidding ourselves.

Some may even decide not to come to Aus because they do not like some aspects of our society. Thats fair enough.

I have tried to get information from DIMIA about this and they say their staff cannot legally give out this info. Unless someone reading this can shed light on it I will have to approach the Minister

I agree that many Aussies need civics education. This used to be taught at home, but not for some, it appears. Of course I view the conduct of some at Cronulla as appalling. As with Macquarie Fields and Redfern riots. I could find little wrong with what the NSW Chief Judge said the other night about manners.

The last two paragraphs of your reply to me, I find completely erroneous.

Dawood just doesn't get it, Muslims want us to embrace their culture ,but they don't want to embrace ours,we have had successful social integration for over a hundred years without any conflict UNTIL recently , when different cultures arrived here who have freedom ,but want us to change.

We have had the Italians,Dutch,Indonesians,Indians,Sikhs,all Europeans ,Singaporeans,Chinese,Afghans,Japanese, Jews ,Greeks,Germans,who all assimilated socially with no complaints over our Christian beliefs ,Christmas celebrations,decorations and Churches Holidays and more.

We did not change or compromise the foods,meats,holidays,celebrations then and shouldn't now.

As I said , it is ALL spiritual with middle eastern arrivals the devil is stirring , and us Bible thumpers know what it is.

The unregenerated human cannot know,understand or believe it is a spiritual battle unless they are "Born Again", into Christ.John Ch 3v 3-7 NT Bible .
The Bible says that the natural man cannot understand the spirtual as they are spiritually discerned.1 Corinthians Ch 2.

Jesus called the unregenerated man spiritually dead,He said ,"let the dead bury the dead".
So ,get "born again", and read the Bible, then you can understand what id happening to Australia .Beleive it or not !

Forgetting for a minute that many Indonesians, Singaporeans, Afghans, Indians and perhaps some others are also Muslim, of course.

Rainer, who was the person that F was alluding to, in your opinion? My mistake if that is not who the writer meant. It would be a spectacular coincidence though if it is not.

Also, I deliberately did not say Aboriginal "friends of mine" for precisely the reason that it would extract comments such as yours.

All I will say is that some are friends in sydney and some are family in adelaide so get over this Rainier, you dont know me and you are largely reflecting your own motives here.

The Muslims have really blown it now, as they attack people worldwide asked for a day of anger worldwide, are attacking embassies worldwide and burning attacking buildings cars and people.

In New Zealand we just saw them (Muslims)choking a man in the streets ,and in Sydney once again they are stabbing people, if the report is correct in newspapers and media.

The day of anger was proclaimed because of a cartoon of their prophet mohammed in papers worldwide and revenge once again is asked as well as Jihad by some.

Pray for peace and order that this will not go on and on.

Freedom of press is not allowed anymore going by their domineering controlling ways.

Reading some of the angry responses to Salam's soft article, I wonder if these opinion columns are a good or bad thing. Do they solve anything, or is this another vehicle in which hate is fanned?

20 years ago I used to think that competitive sport was not a good thing to encourage because it promoted aggressive competition between males. Later I came to realize that competitive sport is mostly a good thing because it gives an outlet to male aggression - a replacement for tribal violence and war. Like a controlled Clayton's war. Like it or not, testosterone needs an outlet.

Maybe these opinion columns can have a similar effect? That is, to provide an outlet for pent up racial hatred? Or maybe not?

I am surmising not proclaiming.

Gecko,
you got it in one.

Has anyone noticed that the link to Kayser Trad's article on http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/RACISM.HTM is no longer working- in fact the whole site seems to be down, unless it is my browser's fault.
I notice also that Kayser Trad has come out in this morning’s press, strongly criticising Peter Costello’s thoughts about Australian Citizenship.
Little wonder then, that he wouldn’t want people to see exactly what he has been saying to his own people.
Thanks to Meredith:

Here is Kayser’s feelings on our culture,

“our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia, and the people of the world in general. Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia, and mostly we are a big threat to the culture of ELITISM."

Here is my reason for not wanting anything to do with Muslims ,Islam,Mohammedism,and allahism check out the website below.

It says it all here.
http://dog-pundit.blogspot.com/2005/10/horrific-murders-of-christian-school.html