Thanks Bronwyn, I'm sometimes lucid. F H, could you point me to where I said that, I think that was a quote by coach, If not, I stand corrected.

Coach,
1, No

2, No, reality is all things that can be quantified and measured.

3, Yes, That is the difference between a factual historical witness and an assumed understanding, or non witness account.

4, No, but you have to witness the experience to accept it as real, otherwise it is hearsay.

5, I am sure that it presently does, reality consists of many dimensions that interact within and outside our 3 dimensional world. But our understanding of reality lies in this material dimension, until we can access consciously and in a quantifiable manner others outside our current senses, then the answer is no

6, Yes, take the belief in god. The reality of god and its nature is determined by the evidence accumulated since the inception of the theory. The theory is that god is a wonderful, loving, caring entity that has created the universe and all its inhabitants, then humans in his own image. The evidence shows that those created in his image are the opposite to the theory and god has shown no compassion or care for any being that has been destroyed in his name. There is no factual evidence to support the theory

7, Yes when it becomes provable, until then it is just unsubstantiated theory.

8, Yes, if you speak of psychological reality as opposed to material reality.

9, No, I don't believe in god

10, A theory remains a theory until it changes to evidenced fact.

Robert, Not necessarily, if that were so then we would have no progress. A theory becomes void when it is proved unsustainable in its action, or it's implementation. Religion is a good example of a voided theory, unsustainable, evidenced by its actions and implementation.

Alch,

(off topic)

Yahoo used to have a chat room called "athiests verses xtains", it was dam funny i used to go all the time, did you ever know it?

The Alchemist,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I found some of the answers interesting and somehow a reflection of your inner thoughts and presuppositions.

Current events involve making logical assumptions which are closely related to the evidence - often with little room for speculation - and arrive at verifiable conclusions.

Conflicts arise when it comes to past events, relying on historical records and science alone we become limited because we lack observable facts and concrete proofs to support our theories.

The inferences require a deal of extrapolated guesswork. Inevitably non-scientific factors, errors, oversights, and our personal worldview often lead to inaccurate, inconsistent, illogical interpretations and naive conclusions.

Your wilful rejection of God’s Word – the bible – as a dependable historical source is at the root of our disagreements. I consent that the bible is not a science book and should not be used as such; but science and history could never categorically fault it.

Your insistence on refuting the very existence of God – or even a higher power – with so much credible evidence surrounding you is quite a feat in itself and puts you in a minority group

Boaz,

When I said 'beyond conversion' I meant I found God through another faith. For those of us with religion we believe there is only one God anyway. Not sure why would you interpret my comment as an attack on your faith.

coach

"Your insistence on refuting the very existence of God – or even a higher power – with so much credible evidence surrounding you is quite a feat in itself and puts you in a minority group"

I very much doubt it, coach. And where is this credible evidence?

Besides, which god are we talking here? There are so many of them - each with followers all claiming theirs to be the one true god and all spouting from different versions of "his" word. The very fact that none of you can agree is telling in itself.

It is understandable that egocentric creatures such as ourselves find it hard to accept that our existence is temporary, our lives finite and that we will all end up as nothing more than dust. I can understand that believing in a god gives some meaning, purpose and hope to those who need it.

Many of us, however, and I would argue the vast majority, don't need it. We feel at one with the earth and understand our place in it. We have no need to waste time and effort looking for some higher deity to explain our existence. We look to do good in the world because we want to, not to shore up some place in some imaginary heaven.

We accept your right to believe in a god. That is your perogative and we respect it. Just don't ram it down our throats. If you do we will end up hating your god instead of treating him with indifference as we do now.

F.H. I also don't know why you sense me feeling you attacked my faith :) I felt you were saying that you at never going to change from your current position re faith and I was merely pointing out that with God, nothing is impossible. You did not insult or offend me.

I was suggesting that conversion from Islam to knowing God through Christ is not beyond Gods capability.

But...different issue now, what is the story among Egyptians concerning their origins ? Do they relate it back to one of Noah's sons ? I'd guess the Jordanians would, and Arabs for sure, but I don't know about Egyptians. (this aint a trick question by the way, I'm doing a bit of research I guess)

Hey, I read an article on Irfs blog, about the various factions among the Muslims in Australia, mosques run on ethnic/language lines etc...
quite a cesspool of racism :) But no biggy, we knew this all along, as most humans are kinda territorial about those they associate with.

Today I was down at the local swimming pool. Lots of Aussies(most), some Tongan Islanders, Asians etc.. all getting along fine. Mainly because no one is trying to 'corden off' part of the pool for 'their' women, nor were they playing rough games which annoyed others etc How easy it is to have cultural/racial peace when people are basically culturally compatable. But the Tongan guy I befriended (a policeman) told me of growing resentment of the influx of Chinese over the past 5 yrs. Watch that space.